The 4 soils in the parable refute T.U.L.I.P.

The Rogue Tomato said:
Part of the problem is that the anti-Calvinism is truly anti-Calvinism. Until recently, I always considered "Calvinism" to simply be a shorthand way of saying divine election or reformed doctrine (in general, not necessarily every specific detail). But the anti-Calvinists seem to assume everyone is dedicated to the man Calvin and subscribes to TULIP (even though Calvin didn't create TULIP). I've never read Calvin except a few times to see if someone was quoting him correctly. I didn't get my views from Calvin, Luther, Augustine, TULIP, or any of that stuff. So when people respond with quotes from Calvin, I have to wonder if they think everyone who believes in election, predestination, etc. is a Calvin follower.
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I understand brother-I have a lot of Reformed and Arminian commentaries and love reading them.
This might help.

Traditional/Classical Calvinism: This refers to the historical Calvinist theology articulated by John Calvin and developed further by theologians such as Theodore Beza and the early Reformed confessions (e.g., the Belgic Confession, the Westminster Confession). It emphasizes doctrines such as predestination, total depravity, and the sovereignty of God in salvation.

Reformed/Presbyterian Calvinism: This stream emphasizes the ecclesiological and confessional aspects of Calvinism, particularly within Reformed and Presbyterian denominations. It includes adherence to specific confessional standards (e.g., the Westminster Standards, the Heidelberg Catechism) and often places a strong emphasis on the sovereignty of God in all areas of life, including church governance.

High Calvinism: This perspective emphasizes the absolute sovereignty of God in all aspects of salvation, including the doctrine of double predestination (the belief that God predestines both the elect to salvation and the reprobate to damnation). High Calvinism tends to accentuate the sovereignty of God to the extent that human responsibility and agency may seem diminished.

Modified/Neo-Calvinism: This stream represents a more contemporary expression of Calvinist theology that seeks to engage with modern issues and contexts. Neo-Calvinism often emphasizes the cultural mandate and the application of Calvinist principles to various spheres of life, including culture, politics, and society. It may also incorporate elements of evangelicalism and emphasize evangelism and social justice alongside traditional Calvinist doctrines.

Particular/Strict Baptist Calvinism: This perspective emphasizes the particularity of the atonement and the doctrine of limited atonement, which teaches that Christ's death was intended specifically for the elect. It is often associated with Baptist traditions that hold to a strict Calvinist soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

These are broad categorizations, and there may be overlap or variations within each stream. Additionally, individuals and groups within Calvinism may hold to different emphases or interpretations of specific doctrines, leading to further diversity within the tradition.

Still doesn't mean I can learn from them-especially on the doctrines @The Rogue Tomato.
So where do you stand and which church are you affiliated with? You don't have to answer brother.
 
mailmandan said:
Yes, but I don't post much there anymore. It can be a hornets nest! Especially in the political threads.
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Absolutely! Tried to reach out to marks and he said "occasionally might give some input" Politics has taken the world by storm.
And I could not believe "Spirit gives birth to spirit" are still there.
Just waiting for that one person I can have fellowship with.
Shalom to you and family brother.
Johann.
 
Johann said:
I understand brother-I have a lot of Reformed and Arminian commentaries and love reading them.
This might help.

Traditional/Classical Calvinism: This refers to the historical Calvinist theology articulated by John Calvin and developed further by theologians such as Theodore Beza and the early Reformed confessions (e.g., the Belgic Confession, the Westminster Confession). It emphasizes doctrines such as predestination, total depravity, and the sovereignty of God in salvation.

Reformed/Presbyterian Calvinism: This stream emphasizes the ecclesiological and confessional aspects of Calvinism, particularly within Reformed and Presbyterian denominations. It includes adherence to specific confessional standards (e.g., the Westminster Standards, the Heidelberg Catechism) and often places a strong emphasis on the sovereignty of God in all areas of life, including church governance.

High Calvinism: This perspective emphasizes the absolute sovereignty of God in all aspects of salvation, including the doctrine of double predestination (the belief that God predestines both the elect to salvation and the reprobate to damnation). High Calvinism tends to accentuate the sovereignty of God to the extent that human responsibility and agency may seem diminished.

Modified/Neo-Calvinism: This stream represents a more contemporary expression of Calvinist theology that seeks to engage with modern issues and contexts. Neo-Calvinism often emphasizes the cultural mandate and the application of Calvinist principles to various spheres of life, including culture, politics, and society. It may also incorporate elements of evangelicalism and emphasize evangelism and social justice alongside traditional Calvinist doctrines.

Particular/Strict Baptist Calvinism: This perspective emphasizes the particularity of the atonement and the doctrine of limited atonement, which teaches that Christ's death was intended specifically for the elect. It is often associated with Baptist traditions that hold to a strict Calvinist soteriology (doctrine of salvation).

These are broad categorizations, and there may be overlap or variations within each stream. Additionally, individuals and groups within Calvinism may hold to different emphases or interpretations of specific doctrines, leading to further diversity within the tradition.

Still doesn't mean I can learn from them-especially on the doctrines @The Rogue Tomato.
So where do you stand and which church are you affiliated with? You don't have to answer brother.
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I don't stand with any of those positions because I don't concern myself with them. For example, I have no idea, nor do I care if atonement is limited to the elect. I'm comfortable that atonement is sufficient for all but efficient for the elect. But if I find out on the other side of heaven that it's something else, well, what will be will be. I take issue with the language that God specifically predestines the reprobate to damnation, as if God specifically chooses people for damnation. It's the language I have a problem with, because we are all destined for damnation by default. If God decides to allow some subset of people to continue in that, He is not unjust in doing so.

I do take great comfort in the sovereignty of God. For me, it is the supreme foundation for faith in God. If we can't trust Him with everything, whether or not we agree or like what God does, how can we say we have faith?

Discussing doctrine is more of a hobby for me than anything else. I'm prepared to find out I'm wrong about many doctrines. Above all things, I place faith and trust in Jesus Christ our Lord and His death and resurrection. I will gladly discuss theological issues outside of that, but that and the sovereignty of God is the foundation upon which I rest.

I'm not affiliated with any church.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
I don't stand with any of those positions because I don't concern myself with them. For example, I have no idea, nor do I care if atonement is limited to the elect. I'm comfortable that atonement is sufficient for all but efficient for the elect. But if I find out on the other side of heaven that it's something else, well, what will be will be. I take issue with the language that God specifically predestines the reprobate to damnation, as if God specifically chooses people for damnation. It's the language I have a problem with, because we are all destined for damnation by default. If God decides to allow some subset of people to continue in that, He is not unjust in doing so.

I do take great comfort in the sovereignty of God. For me, it is the supreme foundation for faith in God. If we can't trust Him with everything, whether or not we agree or like what God does, how can we say we have faith?

Discussing doctrine is more of a hobby for me than anything else. I'm prepared to find out I'm wrong about many doctrines. Above all things, I place faith and trust in Jesus Christ our Lord and His death and resurrection. I will gladly discuss theological issues outside of that, but that and the sovereignty of God is the foundation upon which I rest.

I'm not affiliated with any church.
Click to expand...
If I may ask-what tools are you using, I mean study tools and resources? Again, no need to answer if you don't want to brother.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
if God specifically chooses people for damnation. It's the language I have a problem with, because we are all destined for damnation by default. If God decides to allow some subset of people to continue in that, He is not unjust in doing so.
Click to expand...

The Cross of Christ as the Redemption that is found "in Christ".....only selects, only Elects : SINNERS.

BECAUSE....This is who qualifies to be the "Elect". ("In the Time of the Gentiles").

How do you know?

A.) "Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS"..

Who are those?

AA.) Everyone qualifies because "ALL have sinned".
 
Johann said:
If I may ask-what tools are you using, I mean study tools and resources? Again, no need to answer if you don't want to brother.
Click to expand...
Mostly online tools like Biblegateway, Biblehub interlinear. I study my hardcopy Bible, which does not include any commentary or notes. I also have books on NT Greek and OT Hebrew, which I use a references as needed. How about you? What do you use (same, no need for answer)?
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
Mostly online tools like Biblegateway, Biblehub interlinear. I study my hardcopy Bible, which does not include any commentary or notes. I also have books on NT Greek and OT Hebrew, which I use a references as needed. How about you? What do you use (same, no need for answer)?
Click to expand...
Should you wish you can send me your email and you and I can have a in depth fellowship offline. Don't know if what I'm asking is permissible though.
Until then, stay strong in Christ Jesus brother-and shalom to you and family.
Tag me should you need assistance.
Johann.
 
mailmandan said:
Calvinism sure seems to be a hot topic on this forum.
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Unlike some other forums the members here can oppose it without the threat of being banned and the same is allowed for Calvinists against non Calvinists.

We also allow anti Trinitarians to post anywhere. On other forums they do not have that freedom.

We also allow those who want to talk about universalism to defend it openly whereas on other forums it’s a banned topic.

Atheists can post anywhere too.

We welcome anyone to defend their beliefs Christian’s and non Christians alike. Just like in the real world.
 
civic said:
Unlike some other forums the members here can oppose it without the threat of being banned and the same is allowed for Calvinists against non Calvinists.

We also allow anti Trinitarians to post anywhere. On other forums they do not have that freedom.

We also allow those who want to talk about universalism to defend it openly whereas on other forums it’s a banned topic.

Atheists can post anywhere too.

We welcome anyone to defend their beliefs Christian’s and non Christians alike. Just like in the real world.
Click to expand...
Also anti New Covenant theology
 
civic said:
Matthew 13- The Parable of the Sower


1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.


19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

T- man can choose to hear, see and receive the gospel
U- all can choose to believe and receive as demonstrated in the parable of the 4 soils
L- all soils received the seed without exception
I- 3 soils resisted all but 1 soil remained faithful and did not resist
P- 3/4 soils ( minds/hearts )did not preserver in the faith

1- Only something alive can be choked. You cannot choke the dead. And as we can see they all had life to begin with in each soil.
2- Only something alive can be scorched by the Sun and withered.
3- Only someone alive can receive the word in the heart and have it snatched away
4- Only someone alive can receive the word with Joy and endure for a while

hope this helps !!!
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All the seed, except the first example that fell on hard soil and was swept away, sprang to life, yet only one produced any fruit.


Doug
 

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