Why was it necessary for Christ to hide truth in a parable

[Johann]

First do admit the unregenerate are capable of belief?

then

John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”


D you admit had these not been blinded they could have believed and their real real as jesus would havehealed them

as for your question nothing

but the issue is the capability of belief

I gave you two examples

The first unregenerate, but they believed

the second unregenerate only because they were blinded otherwise they would have believed and their faikth alive as jesus would heal them

How can you logically deny men are incapable of belief based on those two verses?

Lest at any time they should see.—The words point to the obstinate, willful ignorance which refuses to look on the truth, lest the look should lead to conviction, and conviction to conversion—the ignorance of those who love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil (Joh_3:19).

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

One word temporary

and

Romans 11:23 (ESV) — 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

I can't find the word "temporary" in Mark 4:10–12. Which translation are you using?

 

[Johann]

Absolutely correct-

1Ti_2:4

who desires all people -- God's will that we pray for all men, for God desires all people to be saved. cf. 2Pe_3:9.

Key of verse = all men, cf. vs 1, not for just an "elect" nation of Israel. [notice THE ELECT nation of YisraEL]

come knowledge of the truth -- Refers to hearing, understanding, believing, and committing one's self to following (obeying) the gospel message. It covers all aspects of conversion Rom_10:17; Heb_11:6; Luk_24:47; Heb_5:9;


Four arguments for universal prayer to the One True God -- 1Ti_2:5-6
1) One God for all men
2) One mediator for all
3) Availability of ransom for all
4) Paul's commission to the Gentiles - cf 1Ti_2:7

J.

However @dizerner --

"who desires all men to be saved" Believers are to pray for all people because God wants all people saved. This was a shocking statement to the exclusivistic false teachers, whether Gnostic or Jewish, or more probably in the Pastoral Letters, a combination. This is the great truth about God's love for all mankind (cf. 1 Tim. 4:10; Ezek. 18:23,32; John 3:16; 4:42; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:1; 4:14).

This verse shows the imbalance of dogmatic, super-lapsarian, double-edged predestination which emphasizes God's sovereignty to the exclusion of any needed human response.

The stated truths of "five point" Calvinism, especially "irresistible grace" and "limited atonement," violate the covenant aspect of biblical faith.

It is improper to reduce God to a puppet of human free will, as it is also improper to reduce mankind to a puppet of divine will. God in His sovereignty has chosen to deal with fallen mankind by means of covenant. He always initiates and structures the covenant (cf. John 6:44;65), but He has mandated that humans must respond and continue to respond in repentance and faith (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21).

Often the theological discussion of God's sovereignty (predestination) and human free will deteriorates into a proof-texting contest.

The Bible clearly reveals the sovereignty of YHWH. However, it also reveals that His highest creation, mankind made in His image, had been given the awesome personal quality of moral decision making. Humans must co-operate with God in every area of life.

The term "many" has been used to assert that God has chosen some (the elect) but not all; that Jesus died for some, not all. A careful reading of the following texts shows that these are used in a parallel sense!

Isaiah 53 Romans 5
1. "all" (1 Tim. 2:6)
2. "many" (1 Tim. 2:11-12) 1. "all" (1 Tim. 2:18)
2. "many" (1 Tim. 2:19)
Utley.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Absolutely correct-

1Ti_2:4

who desires all people -- God's will that we pray for all men, for God desires all people to be saved. cf. 2Pe_3:9.

Key of verse = all men, cf. vs 1, not for just an "elect" nation of Israel. [notice THE ELECT nation of YisraEL]

come knowledge of the truth -- Refers to hearing, understanding, believing, and committing one's self to following (obeying) the gospel message. It covers all aspects of conversion Rom_10:17; Heb_11:6; Luk_24:47; Heb_5:9;


Four arguments for universal prayer to the One True God -- 1Ti_2:5-6
1) One God for all men
2) One mediator for all
3) Availability of ransom for all
4) Paul's commission to the Gentiles - cf 1Ti_2:7

J.

Context is key.

2 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Not all men without exception.

All men, without distinction. Including kings and all who are in authority. It's hard for me to pray for Joe Biden, but this passage is telling me to do so, anyway. I'm sure it was the same back then.

 

[Johann]

Not all men without exception.

1) "Who will have all men to be saved" (hos pantas anthropous thelei sothenai) "Who has an high holy will that all men be saved." If our Lord willed all men to be saved, should not His children will the same? And if so, pray for it? Luk_10:2; Joh_4:35; Rom_9:1-3; Rom_10:1-4; Eze_33:11; Luk_3:34; 2Ti_1:9.

2) "And to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (kai eis epignosin aletheias eithein) "And into a full knowledge of truth to come." 2Pe_3:9. The term truth means "practical, saving truth," the Word of God concerning the sin and salvation, Pro_1:21-23; Joh_8:32; Joh_8:36; Joh_17:3. The meaning of this verse is that God sincerely wills and has provided for the eternal salvation of every men on earth and desires that each saved person help make this known to every needy soul possible. Nothing but the obstinacy, enmity, and rebellion of a sinner against God's call and will ultimately damns any soul in hell. Yet, the responsibility to bear this story of truth is left to the church and the children of God, as the Holy Spirit leads, guides, and convicts.

NEGLECTING SALVATION

Most of the calamities of life are caused by simple neglect. By neglect of education children grow up in ignorance: by neglect a farm grows up to weeds and briars; by neglect a house goes to decay; by neglect of sowing a man will have no harvest; by neglect of reaping, the harvest will rot in the fields. No worldly interest can prosper where there is neglect; and why may it not be so in religion? There is nothing in earthly affairs that is valuable that will not be ruined if it is not attended to --and why may it not be so with the concerns of the soul? Yes?


1Ti 2:4 ὃς hos|G3739|RelPro-NMS|who πάντας pantas|G3956|Adj-AMP|all ἀνθρώπους anthrōpous|G444|N-AMP|men θέλει thelei|G2309|V-PIA-3S|desires σωθῆναι sōthēnai|G4982|V-ANP|to be saved, καὶ kai|G2532|Conj|and εἰς eis|G1519|Prep|to ἐπίγνωσιν epignōsin|G1922|N-AFS|[the] knowledge ἀληθείας alētheias|G225|N-GFS|of [the] truth ἐλθεῖν. elthein|G2064|V-ANA|to come.

Willeth (thelei). God’s wish and will in so far as he can influence men.
That all men should be saved (pantas anthrōpous sōthēnai). First aorist passive infinitive of sōzō with accusative of general reference. See note on 1Co_10:33; 2Co_5:18.
To the knowledge (eis epignōsin). “The full knowledge” as in Col_1:6; Eph_4:13 (ten times in Paul). See note on 2Ti_3:7 for the whole phrase “full knowledge of the truth” (alētheia 14 times in the Pastorals). Paul is anxious as in Colossians and Ephesians that the Gnostics may not lead the people astray. They need the full intellectual apprehension of Christianity.
RWP.

But we know-from experience-that not Definite Article [HOS] PANTAS ANTHROPOUS will come to the Light-Christ Jesus-God has no pleasure in the death of a sinner.

One or two points must ever be held in mind when this great statement of St. Paul’s is used as a proof of “Universal Redemption.” We must remember the position it occupies in the argument, it being only introduced as a reason for the exhortation to pray for all. Then the words must be looked at very carefully. God’s-will is not to save (sôsai) all—if that had been His sovereign will He would have saved all; but His will is that all should be saved—all should come to the knowledge of the truth; not to the knowledge of the mere theoretical, but of the practical and saving truth as revealed in the gospel. “In other words, through the sacrifice and the death of Christ all are rendered capable of salvation (salvabiles); that some are indisputably not saved, is not due to any outward circumscription or inefficacy of the divine will, but to man’s rejection of the special means of salvation which God has been pleased to appoint, and to which it is His divine will that man’s salvation should be limited. Redemption is universal, yet conditional—all may be saved, yet all will not be saved, because all will not conform to God’s appointed condition.”—Bishop Ellicott.

Johann.

 

[armylngst]

First do admit the unregenerate are capable of belief?

They are. Completely incapable. It is one thing to say "Sure, I beleive", and another to actually mean it. For it to be from the spirit and not from the evil heart wishing to cash in on the now. [See Joel Olsteen and others.]

then

John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

D you admit had these not been blinded they could have believed and their real real as jesus would havehealed them

Since we have no actual examples of this happening, there is no argument here.

as for your question nothing

but the issue is the capability of belief

If God does not intervene, Jesus was clear. With man it is impossible.

I gave you two examples

The first unregenerate, but they believed

the second unregenerate only because they were blinded otherwise they would have believed and their faikth alive as jesus would heal them

How can you logically deny men are incapable of belief based on those two verses?

Why would I only use two verses?

 

[TomL]

They are. Completely incapable. It is one thing to say "Sure, I beleive", and another to actually mean it. For it to be from the spirit and not from the evil heart wishing to cash in on the now. [See Joel Olsteen and others.]

Well scripture refutes you

John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

John 20:31 (ESV) — 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Since we have no actual examples of this happening, there is no argument here.

That is begging the question. You simply assume that those being saved wer firstregeneration but in

John 20:31 (ESV) — 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.


one believes before given life (regeneration)

and many other place as well

If God does not intervene, Jesus was clear. With man it is impossible.

Why would I only use two verses?

Sorry you took the verse out of context. It refers to bearing fruit not believing the gospel.

 

[TomL]

I can't find the word "temporary" in Mark 4:10–12. Which translation are you using?

Never said it was there

The hardening was in fact temporary, read Romans 9-11 not to mention the Jews who were converted in Acts chap 2 and 4

The point however remains unaddressed

Why would Christ hide truth from those who had no capacity to believe it?

Calvinism has no rational answer

 

[TomL]

Lest at any time they should see.—The words point to the obstinate, willful ignorance which refuses to look on the truth, lest the look should lead to conviction, and conviction to conversion—the ignorance of those who love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil (Joh_3:19).

The issue is however why would there be any need to hide truth if man had no capacity to believe it?

 

[Diserner]

Sorry you took the verse out of context. It refers to bearing fruit not believing the gospel.

Oh, brother.

The context was SALVATION, entering the kingdom of God.

You are not playing honest and fair, you are not dealing with integrity with the Word.

You come WITH Provisionist false presuppositions, you label what you already believe as "context," and then twist the Bible to say it HAS to mean that.

Exactly the same thing Calvinists do that you seem to have devoted your whole life to call out.

And yet you go and do the same thing before God.

Hypocrisy.

 

[Rockson]

The point however remains unaddressed

Sure and your point is a valid one. It destroyed and dismantled in one verse the Calvinistic view of total depravity. This verse you pointed out and your comments we can hope will stay in their consciousness for some time and even in their quite times when not on message boards they'll keep pondering over that insight. Yeah if Jesus had to harden some then HOW CAN IT BE they're total depraved in the way we've taught. He wouldn't have needed to do that if they were.

 

[civic]

Oh, brother.

The context was SALVATION, entering the kingdom of God.

You are not playing honest and fair, you are not dealing with integrity with the Word.

You come WITH Provisionist false presuppositions, you label what you already believe as "context," and then twist the Bible to say it HAS to mean that.

Exactly the same thing Calvinists do that you seem to have devoted your whole life to call out.

And yet you go and do the same thing before God.

Hypocrisy.

You come WITH Calvinist/Reformed false presuppositions

 

[TomL]

Sure and your point is a valid one. It destroyed and dismantled in one verse the Calvinistic view of total depravity. This verse you pointed out and your comments we can hope will stay in their consciousness for some time and even in their quite times when not on message boards they'll keep pondering over that insight. Yeah if Jesus had to harden some then HOW CAN IT BE they're total depraved in the way we've taught. He wouldn't have needed to do that if they were.

Yes, it is undeniable. And if one's authority is the word of God, it should weigh heavily upon them.

 

[civic]

Sure and your point is a valid one. It destroyed and dismantled in one verse the Calvinistic view of total depravity. This verse you pointed out and your comments we can hope will stay in their consciousness for some time and even in their quite times when not on message boards they'll keep pondering over that insight. Yeah if Jesus had to harden some then HOW CAN IT BE they're total depraved in the way we've taught. He wouldn't have needed to do that if they were.

Yes the parables are a stumbling block for the calvinist and the reformed as is the topic of infants as we have seen over the past few days. The church struggled over them too which is why infant baptism was invented. It was a way to keep their doctrine which they saw did not fit into the problem with infants so they invented a solution- infant baptism. They knew they had a moral/ethical dilemma with total depravity and a sin nature from birth. So they hung onto their false teaching and added another false teaching the baptism of infants.

 

[Rockson]

Yes, it is undeniable. And if one's authority is the word of God, it should weigh heavily upon them.

Yeah to the point I'd say where they have some sleepless nights thinking about it and finally acknowledging they're leaving Calvinistic thinking, take their books supporting it out in the wilderness , bury them in a hole, cover it again with dirt and never

leaving a grave marker so as they'd never be able to find them again. I believe God would like to see their unbiblical philosophy dead in their lives. He wants them in the LIGHT of enjoying and appreciating what God's true character is. To any Calvinists out there bring pleasure to the heart of God and consider doing this TODAY!

This might sound a little strong and I might have second thoughts that I put it down this way but it is my way of thinking about this.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Never said it was there

The hardening was in fact temporary, read Romans 9-11 not to mention the Jews who were converted in Acts chap 2 and 4

The point however remains unaddressed

Why would Christ hide truth from those who had no capacity to believe it?

Calvinism has no rational answer

I'll answer that when you answer why free-willers normally have a problem with God saving some people but not others, but don't have a problem with this particular case. And don't say "temporary". "Temporary" is not good enough. God is still saving some and not others, which is what free-willers object to in Calvinism.

 

[civic]

Yeah to the point I'd say where they have some sleepless nights thinking about it and finally acknowledging they're leaving Calvinistic thinking, take their books supporting it out in the wilderness , bury them in a hole, cover it again with dirt and never

leaving a grave marker so as they'd never be able to find them again. I believe God would like to see their unbiblical philosophy dead in their lives. He wants them in the LIGHT of enjoying and appreciating what God's true character is. To any Calvinists out there bring pleasure to the heart of God and consider doing this TODAY!

This might sound a little strong and I might have second thoughts that I put it down this way but it is my way of thinking about this.

I have some to the conclusion it all boils down to Gods nature/character. They don't line up with the God of the Bible. Its not only in Calvinism but also in some of Arminius teachings. That whole time of the Reformation brought several unbiblcal teachings into the church as they were parting ways with their mother church. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. . Prior to that it was augustine that brought in many unbiblcal teachings that were also an assault on Gods nature/character that Luther/Calvin agreed with and added to in their theology.

 

[Rockson]

I have some to the conclusion it all boils down to Gods nature/character.

Sure and that's always been what it's about. In Gen 3:4 s we read .
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

In other words he was trying to make them doubt the good, loving character of God and attributing to him that he had a selfish self serving agenda.

 

[civic]

Sure and that's always been what it's about. In Gen 3:4 s we read .
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

In other words he was trying to make them doubt the good, loving character of God and attributing to him that he had a selfish self serving agenda.

Exactly. And where can the enemy be most effective with his deceptions ? Within the church which is why there are so many warnings about this from Jesus and the Apostles regarding false teachings, heresies that have crept in, wolves in sheeps clothing, the spirit of antichrist at work, doctrines of demons, angel of light, false christs, false apostles, false teachers, false gospel, false god and the list goes on and on. Sound doctrine counters these deceptions and it starts with the character and nature of our God.

 

[TomL]

I'll answer that when you answer why free-willers normally have a problem with God saving some people but not others, but don't have a problem with this particular case. And don't say "temporary". "Temporary" is not good enough. God is still saving some and not others, which is what free-willers object to in Calvinism.

That is called a dodge

But we here have a judicial act of God hardening Jews in their rebelion for a period of time

that is not the same as arbitrarily assigning some to damnation without recourse

You have a false equivalency

Can you address the rationality of blinding the blind

stopping the ears of the deaf

hiding truth from a dead man

This refutes your theology while your query does nothing to effect mine.