Why was it necessary for Christ to hide truth in a parable

TomL said:
That is called a dodge

But we here have a judicial act of God hardening Jews in their rebelion for a period of time

that is not the same as arbitrarily assigning some to damnation without recourse

You have a false equivalency

Can you address the rationality of blinding the blind

stopping the ears of the deaf

hiding truth from a dead man

This refutes your theology while your query does nothing to effect mine.
Click to expand...
yes this exposes the false teaching of the "dead" in reformed circles.
 
TomL said:
That is called a dodge

But we here have a judicial act of God hardening Jews in their rebelion for a period of time

that is not the same as arbitrarily assigning some to damnation without recourse

You have a false equivalency

Can you address the rationality of blinding the blind

stopping the ears of the deaf

hiding truth from a dead man

This refutes your theology while your query does nothing to effect mine.
Click to expand...

Free-willers reject Romans 9, especially verses like this:

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Yet that's exactly what we see in Mark 4:10–12. It is God's sovereignty over salvation. He saves whom he wants to save and rejects whom he rejects. And when a free-willer objects to this, the answer to that is, "Who are you, oh, man, to talk back to God? ... 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"

So in trying to disprove monergism, you've proved it. It's all up to God, not our free will. I say "monergism", not "Calvinism", because although you are arguing against Calvinism, I am not defending it. I couldn't care less about TULIP. What I'm defending is the sovereignty of God in salvation which free-willers reject.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
Free-willers reject Romans 9, especially verses like this:

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Yet that's exactly what we see in Mark 4:10–12. It is God's sovereignty over salvation. He saves whom he wants to save and rejects whom he rejects. And when a free-willer objects to this, the answer to that is, "Who are you, oh, man, to talk back to God? ... 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"

So in trying to disprove monergism, you've proved it. It's all up to God, not our free will. I say "monergism", not "Calvinism", because although you are arguing against Calvinism, I am not defending it. I couldn't care less about TULIP. What I'm defending is the sovereignty of God in salvation which free-willers reject.
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Oh the irony as I have 2 threads exposing calvinism is the opposite of what Paul teaches about Romans 9. Just another false assertion from the calvinist camp.


and here

 
The Rogue Tomato said:
"Temporary" is not good enough. God is still saving some and not others, which is what free-willers object to in Calvinism.
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Something you should really acknowledge . A little light came through your darkness and it seems you did agree. OK YES they could understand in their natural state. You've never been to that place before though but at least now you can see that.

You just need to clarify your position to yourself that hold on now......if he had to hold truth from them that means without having done so they had the capacity to believe. If you'll do that you can be freed from Calvinism today! I would just encourage you to do it. God Bless.
 
Rockson said:
Something you should really acknowledge . A little light came through your darkness and it seems you did agree. OK YES they could understand in their natural state. You've never been to that place before though but at least now you can see that.

You just need to clarify your position to yourself that hold on now......if he had to hold truth from them that means without having done so they had the capacity to believe. If you'll do that you can be freed from Calvinism today! I would just encourage you to do it. God Bless.
Click to expand...

Something you should really acknowledge. A little light came through your darkness and it seems you did agree. OK YES God chooses who gets saved and who doesn't, and it's not a matter of man's free will.

If you can be comfortable with that and simply trust God with His plans, you can be free from the pride of thinking you can take a modicum of credit for your own salvation. I would encourage you to do it. God Bless.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
Something you should really acknowledge. A little light came through your darkness and it seems you did agree.
Click to expand...
;Yeah but I never did agree to God chooses some to be saved and not others. Never did I assert that.

The Rogue Tomato said:
If you can be comfortable with that and simply trust God with His plans,
Click to expand...
God's plan is he's not willing for ANY to perish but that ALL should come to repentance.
The Rogue Tomato said:
you can be free from the pride of thinking you can take a modicum of credit for your own salvation.
Click to expand...
Ridiculous. A drowning man who merely reaches out and takes hold of a life preserver thrown out to him NEVER takes credit for being saved. They get to shore and they give the rescuer all the credit.

;So are you saying if you were so saved you'd tell people on shore well he saved me but I also take credit for grabbing the life preserver? You know that would be crazy and out of line and nuts. So why should you do this when we're talking about something God does for us and yet he requires us to believe?
 
TomL said:
Read the passage

and answer why does God have to hide truth from one who has no capacity for truth to prevent that one from believing
Click to expand...

Answer why you believe God had to hide the truth from the people referenced in that scripture in order to prevent them from believing. Look at the context:

4 Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water’s edge. 2 He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: 3 “Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, some multiplying thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times.”

9 Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that,

“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’”

The critical verse is "Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear." So we're talking about two kinds of people - those with ears to hear, and those without ears to hear. And we also know that "Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes by] the Word of Christ". Those on the outside didn't have ears to hear, but the word of Christ would give them hearing. It's not a matter of them having the capacity for truth.

The Bible is not written in parables. Jesus told parables. Time and place and the person of Jesus matter.
 
TomL said:
Mark 4:10–12 (NASB 2020) — 10 As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve disciples, began asking Him about the parables. 11 And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but for those who are outside, everything comes in parables, 12 so that WHILE SEEING THEY MAY SEE, AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR, AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND IT WOULD BE FORGIVEN THEM.”

Why if man is born with no ability to receive biblical truth is Christ hiding the truth in a parable?

How is it that this is to prevent a circumstance in which they might otherwise return (repent) and be forgiven?
Click to expand...
I think it's more like this verse.

To the pure you show yourself pure, but to the crooked you show yourself shrewd. (Psalm 18:26)

Not about calvinism.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
Answer why you believe God had to hide the truth from the people referenced in that scripture in order to prevent them from believing. Look at the context:

4 Again Jesus began to teach by the lake. The crowd that gathered around him was so large that he got into a boat and sat in it out on the lake, while all the people were along the shore at the water’s edge. 2 He taught them many things by parables, and in his teaching said: 3 “Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, some multiplying thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times.”

9 Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that,

“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’”

The critical verse is "Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear." So we're talking about two kinds of people - those with ears to hear, and those without ears to hear. And we also know that "Faith comes by hearing and hearing [comes by] the Word of Christ". Those on the outside didn't have ears to hear, but the word of Christ would give them hearing. It's not a matter of them having the capacity for truth.

The Bible is not written in parables. Jesus told parables. Time and place and the person of Jesus matter.
Click to expand...
Because the parable states it

Mark 4:10–12 (NASB 2020) — 10 As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve disciples, began asking Him about the parables. 11 And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but for those who are outside, everything comes in parables, 12 so that WHILE SEEING THEY MAY SEE, AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR, AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND IT WOULD BE FORGIVEN THEM.”

What is your explanation for why Jesus is hiding truth from those with no ability to believe it

Your theology denies the word can be believed unless one is regenerated. According to it the word is powerless by itself contrary to your claim it gives ears to hear
 
Rockson said:
Sure and that's always been what it's about. In Gen 3:4 s we read .
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

In other words he was trying to make them doubt the good, loving character of God and attributing to him that he had a selfish self serving agenda.
Click to expand...
Sadly Calvinism compromises that, and for that alone we should know Calvinism is not true
 

Why was it necessary for Christ to hide truth in a parable​

TomL said:
Mark 4:10–12 (NASB 2020) — 10 As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve disciples, began asking Him about the parables. 11 And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but for those who are outside, everything comes in parables, 12 so that WHILE SEEING THEY MAY SEE, AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR, AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND IT WOULD BE FORGIVEN THEM.”

Why if man is born with no ability to receive biblical truth is Christ hiding the truth in a parable?

How is it that this is to prevent a circumstance in which they might otherwise return (repent) and be forgiven?
Click to expand...
'But if from thence
thou shalt seek the LORD thy God,
thou shalt find him,
if thou seek him with all thy heart
and with all thy soul.'
(Deu 4:29)

'And hath made of one blood all nations of men
for to dwell on all the face of the earth,
and hath determined the times before appointed,
and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord,
if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him,
though He be not far from every one of us:'
(Act 17:26-27)

Hello @TomL,
Re the T in Tulip​
When I read the OP, my thoughts were directed to the subject heading, rather than the content of the OP itself, and so I did not perceive the object of your entry: which appears to be to expose the error of Calvinism. Which according to your entry would appear to be that man is born with no ability to receive biblical truth. Your point being that if that were indeed so, why was it then necessary for the Lord Jesus Christ to talk to the multitude in parabolic terms, in order to hide the mysteries of the Kingdom, when they would be unable to receive it anyway. Yes?

.Good point. :)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Last edited:
Complete said:

Why was it necessary for Christ to hide truth in a parable​


'But if from thence
thou shalt seek the LORD thy God,
thou shalt find him,
if thou seek him with all thy heart
and with all thy soul.'
(Deu 4:29)

'And hath made of one blood all nations of men
for to dwell on all the face of the earth,
and hath determined the times before appointed,
and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord,
if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him,
though He be not far from every one of us:'
(Act 17:26-27)

Hello @TomL,
Re the T in Tulip​
When I read the OP, my thoughts were directed to the subject heading, rather than the content of the OP itself, and so I did not perceive the object of your entry: which appears to be to expose the error of Calvinism. Which according to your entry would appear to be that man is born with no ability to receive biblical truth. Your point being that if that were indeed so, why was it then necessary for the Lord Jesus Christ to talk to the multitude in parabolic terms, in order to hide the mysteries of the Kingdom, when they would be unable to receive it anyway. Yes?

.Good point. :)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Click to expand...
Yes, that is correct and you are welcome
 

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