Why was it necessary for Christ to hide truth in a parable

[civic]

Scripture please.

Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

Luke 18:31-34
Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.

 

[Diserner]

Luke 9:43-45

Luke 18:31-34

If only those verses said Christ did the hiding.

You might have a point....

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Yes, I know you eliminate the concept of free will in every Biblical description of it.

But it is more natural to associate the idea of reception with the free will of an agent's willingness.

You didn't answer the question. If they didn't RECEIVE THE LOVE OF the truth, from whom die those who received the love of the truth get it?

 

[Diserner]

You didn't answer the question. If they didn't RECEIVE THE LOVE OF the truth, from whom die those who received the love of the truth get it?

They themselves chose not to receive it.

Calvinism changes God the Father into The Godfather:

"I'm going to make you an offer you can't refuse."

God the Godfather "gives" things like a gun "gives" a bullet to the head.

 

[TomL]

There are NonCalvinists who use explain this verse similar to the way Tom does. They put forth that Jesus did with hold the truth from a great many BUT NOT with the intent he would do it forever....but rather just unit Jesus went to the cross. The idea of some is that if Jesus became too popular with super great masses of people following him (that is at this early particular time) it could have hindered Jesus from going to the cross which ultimately is what he had to achieve. It's worth considering the argument by watching this 8 minute video by one Ben Hammond.

wh did Jesus hide the truth from people - Suchen Videos

www.bing.com

Yes and verses quoted clearly show Jesus was hiding truth at least in that period before the cross

Afterward he commissioned the gospel to go to all

 

[TomL]

One question-who are the "them" in the passage quoted?

Jews, many Jews

 

[TomL]

Nowhere does it say God is deliberately desiring to hide this truth from them.

That's not what the passage says, it is what you have been mentally conditioned to interpret it as saying by Calvinists and their detractors.

Sorry but scripture clearly disputes your claim

Mark 4:10–12 (KJV 1900) — 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Matthew 13:10–11 (ESV) — 10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Luke 8:10 (ESV) — 10 he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’

 

[Johann]

Sorry but scripture clearly disputes your claim

Mark 4:10–12 (KJV 1900) — 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Matthew 13:10–11 (ESV) — 10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Luke 8:10 (ESV) — 10 he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’

1) "That seeing they may see, and not perceive;" (hina blepontes bleposin kai me idosin) "In order that seeing (superficially), they may thus see and not at all perceive, or comprehend," not grasp the truth presented in the parabolic language.

2) "And hearing they may hear, and not understand,'' (kai akouontes akouosin kai me suniosen) "And while audibly hearing, they may so hear and not understand,'' may not have spiritual insight or understanding, of what they audibly hear.

3) "Lest at anytime they should be converted," (mepote epistrepsoisin) "Lest they should turn, repent, or reverse their course of choice and life," though such is the will of God, Eze_33:11; 2Pe_3:9.

4) "And their sins should be forgiven them." (kai aphethe autois) "And their sins should be remitted, pardoned, or forgiven.' This does not teach that Jesus wanted or sought to keep the unbelieving in the dark regarding salvation and Divine service. But because they were already unwilling to perceive, and understand, and had already combined and confederated by collusion to kill Him, these had been given over to their own chosen judicial blindness, lest they should be converted, turned away from their sin Of unbelief, Mar_3:6; 1Co_2:14.

AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM
“As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to
them that believe on His name.” John 1:12.
This should all be very clear to Gentiles and Jews during this period of grace in which we
are so extremely fortunate to live. But this economy and age of grace did not begin until after
“His own received Him not.”

Note carefully the message of Acts 2:22 and 23:
“Ye men, of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among
you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by Him in the midst of you, as ye
yourselves also know; Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel, and foreknowledge of
God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.”


Jesus of Nazareth was a Man approved of God; that is, Jesus was put on display by God.
Where and for whom? In the land of the Jews; for Israel. Some years after the Lord Jesus was
rejected by Israel, crucified, buried, raised, and ascended, He said to a converted Jew:

“Depart; for I will send thee far hence to the Gentiles.” Acts 22:21.
Then that converted Jew wrote:

“The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.” Titus 2:11.

Then note his message in I Timothy 2:3 to 6:

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men
to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator
between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified
in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and
lie not, a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.”

All of this is quite different from the statements of Jesus of Nazareth in the land of the
Jews, in the midst of Israel. Note the Lord’s instructions:

“THESE TWELVE JESUS SENT FORTH, AND COMMANDED THEM, SAYING,
GO NOT INTO THE WAY OF THE GENTILES, AND INTO ANY CITY OF THE
SAMARITANS ENTER YE NOT: BUT GO RATHER TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE
HOUSE OF ISRAEL.” “BUT WHEN THEY PERSECUTE YOU IN THIS CITY, FLEE YE
INTO ANOTHER: FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, YE SHALL NOT HAVE GONE OVER
THE CITIES OF ISRAEL, TILL THE SON OF MAN BE COME.” Matthew 10:5, 6 and 23.

Link

Search for "That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. "

An Organization for the Promotion of Bible Study

bereanbiblesociety.org

 

[TomL]

1) "That seeing they may see, and not perceive;" (hina blepontes bleposin kai me idosin) "In order that seeing (superficially), they may thus see and not at all perceive, or comprehend," not grasp the truth presented in the parabolic language.

Obvious purpose to avoid having truth known

2) "And hearing they may hear, and not understand,'' (kai akouontes akouosin kai me suniosen) "And while audibly hearing, they may so hear and not understand,'' may not have spiritual insight or understanding, of what they audibly hear.

3) "Lest at anytime they should be converted," (mepote epistrepsoisin) "Lest they should turn, repent, or reverse their course of choice and life," though such is the will of God, Eze_33:11; 2Pe_3:9.

same. Christ was not revealing truth which would be later propagated by the apostles

 

[civic]

They themselves chose not to receive it.

Calvinism changes God the Father into The Godfather:

"I'm going to make you an offer you can't refuse."

God the Godfather "gives" things like a gun "gives" a bullet to the head.

Yes good one the kingpin, dictator who rules by force

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

They themselves chose not to receive it.

Calvinism changes God the Father into The Godfather:

"I'm going to make you an offer you can't refuse."

God the Godfather "gives" things like a gun "gives" a bullet to the head.

I'm going to give you one last chance. From whom do people receive the love of the truth?

 

[TomL]

You didn't answer the question. If they didn't RECEIVE THE LOVE OF the truth, from whom die those who received the love of the truth get it?

Truth of course comes from God. One may however be misled by the word receive. It is not communicating the idea of something given but of something not welcomed

received not—Greek, “welcomed not”; admitted it not cordially.

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 398.

Check out this translation. The popular with Calvinists - ESV

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (ESV) — 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

 

[TomL]

In certain cases concerning drumming up a claim to Messiahship among the unsaved, I have already indicated I agree.

But concerning the parables it does not fit at all.

Christ said that whoever seeks will find.

So the parables simply weeded out the "non-seekers."

Not even Christ's disciples understood the parables and required explanation

Mark 4:13 (ESV) — 13 And he said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?

 

[armylngst]

apparently, U cannot Understand nor READ with KNOWLEDGE. not all sickness are of sin...... (the Physical Kind), but HERE in context it is speaking of sin. listen carefully, John 9:1 "And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth." John 9:2 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" John 9:3 "Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."

So... not sin.

now "healing" in CONTEXT. Isaiah 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." HOW WAS THEY HEALED? 1 Corinthians 15:3 "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;" the definition of Heal: (of a person or treatment) cause (a wound, injury, or person) to become sound or healthy again. according to the scriptures, CAUSE? Isaiah 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

The stripes healing is not physical healing, but healing from sin. The stripes denote what He gained through the cross.

another word for "bruised" is "injury". one can find this at, https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/bruise.html
strips is another word for "strike".... "how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;"
scripture, Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
another word for "pierced" is "strike"
H1856 דָּקַר daqar (daw-kar') v.
1. to stab.
2. (by analogy) to starve.
3. (figuratively) to revile.
[a primitive root]
KJV: pierce, strike (thrust) through, wound.

If you read John, you will find that by pierced, it means pierced. John brought up this prophecy in speaking of Jesus being pierced by the soldier's spear.

my God this is too easy not to comprehend.

No suprise that you take His name in vain.

101G.

 

[armylngst]

Oh...I see.....you assert that without scripture.

Then you didn't use scripture, since that is what my assertion is about. You gave the reference, and then you completely mutilated it.

The Father gave to Jesus those who listened to John and when they listened to John and obeyed the Father gave them to Christ. Still doesn't mean those who came through John that they didn't come of their own free will.

Read John 6 again.

 

[armylngst]

Your post-

healing the sick is those sick/dead in sin. Hosea 14:4 "I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.""

This is obviously God saying He will do it personally.

I know the difference between physical healing, which is what Jesus told the disciples to do, and the healing that Jesus brings in salvation. They are not the same thing.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Are you stressing physical healing?

THe passage with the command of Jesus to the disciples was speaking specifically of physical healing.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Truth of course comes from God. One may however be misled by the word receive. It is not communicating the idea of something given but of something not welcomed

received not—Greek, “welcomed not”; admitted it not cordially.

Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 398.

Check out this translation. The popular with Calvinists - ESV

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (ESV) — 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

I didn't ask you where truth comes from. I asked you where the love of truth comes from. From where/whom do people receive the love of the truth?

 

[armylngst]

God is rational your theology however is not

You don't put a blindfold on a blind man

you do not hide truth from one who cannot hear

You do not posit a situation where one who cannot believe, believes

You just cannot deal with the facts and there are multiple examples

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would god blind someone who had no ability to see?

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Somewhat redundant if man has no capacity to believe

To the contrary however many verses indicate he can believe

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;


John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.





John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?



John 5:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

I heard again, what I believe anti-calvinists believe to be a great argument. That if God made it so that people cannot choose to be saved, then He is morally evil. My question is, who is willing to go to God and tell Him that they are here to judge Him? Can we judge Him? By what law do you judge Him when you say He is the author of evil, or that He would be evil if we were robots?

 

[Diserner]

I heard again, what I believe anti-calvinists believe to be a great argument. That if God made it so that people cannot choose to be saved, then He is morally evil. My question is, who is willing to go to God and tell Him that they are here to judge Him? Can we judge Him? By what law do you judge Him when you say He is the author of evil, or that He would be evil if we were robots?

There are two ways in which we can judge the character of God morally, one valid and one invalid.

The first invalid way, is to set limits on what God can and cannot do, or set an external morality to which God must be bound.

However, if God reveals himself as having the attribute X, we are not thereby criticizing God morally for what he cannot do when we say some doctrine or idea does not match X; no, rather we are saying God has self-revealed as X in his Word, therefore doctrines which reject X cannot be of God.

Now, for example, if we see the Word of God saying that God is perfect in all his ways, this mean every attribute he has is never partial—God is not partially just, not partially holy, not partially powerful, not partially wise, not partially glorious, not partially pure, etc. etc. To say God is perfect and complete is to say that every attribute God's Word gives him, being a morally perfect attribute, must be maximal, that is, the greatest extent.

So when we see God is love, and God describes love for us, we know that God is not partially loving, he is maximally loving, and we can criticize any doctrine that violates this fundamentally revealed truth about God. We are not demanding nor insisting that God HAS to be maximally loving, nor that God is somehow morally BOUND to be maximally loving, by utilizing his self-revelation to us that he has CHOSEN to be maximally loving.

And thus, by simple and straightforward exegesis of the text, we know that anyone who interprets any Bible verse in a way that violates God's attribute of maximal love, is in fact forcing a man-made and man-centered human tradition upon the text, instead of purely deriving the meaning of what the text says to us.

 

[TomL]

I heard again, what I believe anti-calvinists believe to be a great argument. That if God made it so that people cannot choose to be saved, then He is morally evil. My question is, who is willing to go to God and tell Him that they are here to judge Him? Can we judge Him? By what law do you judge Him when you say He is the author of evil, or that He would be evil if we were robots?

Is this in reference to the temporary hardening of Israel? If so

Who has made that argument? No non calvinist that I know of. God was using stubborn unbelieving Jews and hardening them in their rebellion to effect the crucifixion and bring the message of salvation to the gentiles. It was a temporary measure to spread the gospel and salvation. And the Jews if not remaining in unbelief

Romans 11:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.

could be grafted back in

There was nothing evil in the act and I know of no one who understands what was happening believes that claim