I have a better question for you
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Why there can be no gap between the 69th and 70th week
- Thread starter TomL
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SteveB
Well-known member
I don't have any problem with Jesus.
I do have a serious problem with bad ideas.
In 46 years of taking with people about eschatology, nobody has ever been able to coherently explain non-pre-millennial non-Dispensationalism.
They're clearly all fired up about it. They're really excited that people who trust in Jesus should be able to suffer the wrath of God who gave his only begotten son to save us from his wrath.
They're really excited about Jesus followers not getting to enjoy the benefits of being saved by Jesus from God's Wrath.
But they lack a coherent description.
So, as far as I'm concerned...
Anything not pretrib, premillennial, Dispensationalism...
Is a fraud.
When they can actually answer the questions I have, deal coherently with the passages used in the "pretrib, premillennial, Dispensational" views, and not dismiss them with such contempt as is displayed here...
Then I'll have reason to consider their views differently.
But consider the following...
I've been at this for at least 45 years now.
I was "brought up" as a follower of Jesus having the 3 major views explained to me by a pastor known for a clear ability to make the Bible clear to a bunch of former hippies, regenerated drug/alcohol/sex addicts, and ex-denominational religionists, who escaped a religion which never touched the spirit.
His teachings are vilified by some, and praised by others.
There are plenty of people who came out of this community of Jesus followers and became theologians, well-rounded teachers, pastors, apologeticists, writers, authors, etc...
After decades of experience, and learning a lot myself, I came to the realization that we're not asked to put up with bad teachings, to be "tolerant" and compassionate towards bad ideas.
We're told to confront those ideas and teachings head on.
I've asked the people who are presenting their ideas plenty of questions. They suck at answering them.
It's crystal clear that they just want to play whack-a-mole to any idea they don't accept.
It's also crystal clear that they're basing their ideas on the opinions of others, even if those others are based in a past that modern history has changed the once widely accepted views of the entire church.
I.e., the existence of the modern nation of Israel changed the eschatological views of a lot of churches.
And you know something... had I come in to Christ through a different community of Jesus people... I'm pretty sure I'd have a different idea of eschatology today.
But I for one, like hundreds of millions of other people am really excited about the existence of the modern nation of Israel.
I like that God has done what he says he would.
now... it's changed everything about former eschatological ideas.
come quickly Lord Jesus!
then....
Coming from another forum where I spent over 11 years of not getting questions answered, it's really easy to dismiss unanswering people. And give them the opportunity to walk away.
Since they're refusing to, this has already ramped beyond what I have any interest in dealing with.
I think I'm being extremely gracious and generous here.
So, if my demeanor gives you the impression that I don't like Jesus... sorry.
I just have A seriously different view of the eschatology of the bible than the people here.
I suppose to put it simply...
I'm a pre-tribulation, premillennial, Dispensationalist. And I see no reason why I should abandon solid biblical teachings to make someone who is utterly opposed to such ideas like me.
SteveB
Well-known member
A dodge, and refusal to answer questions.
Thank you for demonstrating that you have no interest in the truth.
You assume that.
I'm quite satisfied that YHVH's Word is solid.
Wipe the dust off your feet, and wash your hands Tom.
Take the hint and walk away.
Lol say the one who claimed Jesus was not anointed
Does not believe God when he stated Cyrus was the man he chose to rebuild Jerusalem
will not accept Jesus claim he was the anointed one
and you want to claim my ideas are rediculous?
SteveB
Well-known member
You're the one who chose to dismiss the question.
I'm not bothered by this.
You're the one who is convinced that the 70 sevens have passed, while ignoring that at least 4 of the 6 requirements to be completed within the 70 sevens haven't been accomplished.
So, stop embarrassing yourself.
I'm not the one who is ignoring that Cyrus himself said God told him to build the House of God.
So, why wouldn't I question that?
Especially since both texts are contained in the Bible.
Is one text more reliable than the other?
Or are they both equally reliable?
Now that's a lie.
Actually, it's the arrangement of your ideas, and the commentators' ideas use that I find ridiculous.
Tell me something...
Is the present day existence of the nation of Israel a fulfilling of the prophecies to bring Israel back to the land of their forefathers?
charismaticlady
Active member
Well Jesus would have to come to start the Millennium so pre-mill is a given. Or do you actually find some who are post millennium? Or is that amillennium which I don't have a clue what that's all about. I just know that Catholics teach it.
I hear some Bible teachers on "To Every Man an Answer," (Calvary Chapel denomination) that teach pre-trib., but they use the same scriptures I use for post trib. I would have to challenge you on pre-trib. I'm no expert on escatology, but tribulation has always been taught to be good for us, so it's not wrath. The last two seals is the first time you even hear the word wrath taught, and by then the tribulation horsemen are done. That seal seems to bring in the trumpets, then woes. Those are your wrath.
If you read the last four letters in Rev. 2 and 3 you will see that the only church age that will be totally protected is Philadelphia. But Catholics (Thyatira), Calvinists, and Lutherans (Sardis) and any other denomination that has been infected by dead doctrines (Rev. 3:1) or are lukewarm, will go into the Great Tribulation and will have to be martyred. There are no more Gentiles coming into the church once the GT starts, 2 Thes. 2:8-12, Romans 11:25-26. The GT is when all Israel will be saved. The pastors on that radio call-in show don't seem to know that. They actually believe in the left behind fiction.
If the secret rapture was real and separate from the second coming, don't you think someone would have written about the two in the same chapter somewhere?
What I don't understand is how anyone will be "alive and remain" when Jesus finally comes. It seems after all that wrath is done. All I know to believe is that tribulation is not wrath. "My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing."
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SteveB
Well-known member
i thought so too. Yet postmillennialism exist, as does ammillennialism.
It exists.
i actually think the idea was developed to explain things that didn't make sense.
Denominations that do so,
Postmillennialism - Wikipedia
won't argue that.
but they actually exist.
Amillennialism - New World Encyclopedia
www.newworldencyclopedia.org
which should make you wonder why.
to me, it raises the question of what the tribulation period actually is and what the purpose of it is.
yet i never here post-trib people say anything except that Christians will go through the tribulation.
Feel free.
there are plenty of books available that do a far better job than I could.
but the tribulation period described in the Bible... it's God's Wrath poured out on a Christ rejecting world.
it's a period of human civilization that Jesus said was something we absolutely do not want to be around for.
tell me something...
what do you think the book of Revelation is based on?
Actually, Jesus said-
Rev 3:10 WEB Because you kept my command to endure, I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is to come on the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
we see this as removing them. Not keeping them safe inside of.
Look closely at what the letters say.
there are people inside the 7 churches who are not in a bad way with Jesus.
oh, we understand that quite well.
we're talking about a different group of people.
Look at the different manner the people who are saved during the tribulation period, and after their deaths are treated.
And? While there's a fair amount of personalization to the story lines, it's still based on a biblical narrative.
He wrote about it in Isaiah 26, Matthew 24, Luke 21, 1 Thessalonians 4-5, and Revelation describes it.
Bingo...
This is one of the many things that causes consternation to those who don't believe that it's a pretrib harpadzo.
Look at the difference between the pretrib rapture described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, and the second coming.
In Thessalonians 4, we will meet Him IN THE AIR.
In the second coming, he will set foot on the Mt of Olives.
The "secret" rapture is ... I think... a misnomer.
The harpadzo, or rapture, from the Latin word, rapiemur.
Jesus said it'll come as a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of the earth. Luke 21:34-36.
Elsewhere, Jesus said it'll happen when we least expect it.
Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5, we who are following Jesus are able to be ready.
1Th 5:1-11 WEB 1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need that anything be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. 3 For when they are saying, “Peace and safety,” then sudden destruction will come on them, like birth pains on a pregnant woman. Then they will in no way escape. 4 But you, brothers, aren’t in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief. 5 You are all children of light and children of the day. We don’t belong to the night, nor to darkness, 6 so then let’s not sleep, as the rest do, but let’s watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep in the night; and those who are drunk are drunk in the night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let’s be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God didn’t appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11 Therefore exhort one another, and build each other up, even as you also do.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
It's only "Theology after all. everybody's got one.
charismaticlady
Active member
Jesus and His Bride. The end of this world, and the creation of a new place.
One thing I've learned in the past few years are the paradigms from the Old Testament. Therefore, the protection could be the same as the plagues of Egypt and the protection of Israel.
Of course, I'm talking about those who need to "overcome." That is in every letter.
The people who are saved during the tribulation period are all Jews during the first 3 1/2 years. Then the second 3 1/2 years the Antichrist will martyr them also. As I said, no Gentiles are saved during the GT. The only Gentiles who come out of the GT were already in the Church going into the GT.
And? Well, those books are contradicted by 2 Thess. 2:8-12.
I'll take a look.
Read this verse 4. The only ones that the second coming will come like a thief are the unsaved who are in darkness. It is not talking about a secret rapture vs. second coming.
SteveB
Well-known member
It's based on the old testament.
John, while a believer in Jesus, was Jewish and grew up studying the Jewish Bible.
According to history, he received the Revelation before he wrote the gospel of John.
The Book of Revelation https://a.co/d/a6Kd3DD
The Book of Revelation | Koinonia House
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Old Testament References and Allusions in Revelation 1-3 | Talmidim Way
The Old Testament is in the New Testament Revealed
talmidimway.org
Revelation Appendices, Extras, and Study Aids | Talmidim Way
Bible teacher and growing disciple of ×ש××¢/Jesus
talmidimway.org
Indeed.
and it's only Jewish people.... according to?
everyone to whom they can get too, who rejected the antichrist is murdered, tortured...
according to...?
have you ever looked at the amount of people who came out of the GT?
By YOUR understanding of it.
The Bible is never wrong.
there are no contradictions in theBible.
There are copious contradictions in our thinking and understanding of what the Bible actually says.
It's why it's so important to be involved in good Bible study with reputable teachers.
Are you aware that once the signing of the covenant takes place the middle and the end of the tribulation period are actual known dates?
Rockson
Well-known member
You should know though Steve that many of the Bible teachers you hold in high esteem seeing they believe in Pre Trib probably were ones who believed Jesus would return in 1988 or before.
The reasoning in many books were as following.
The generation which exists when Israel becomes a nation will not pass away until Jesus returns. Israel became a nation in 1948. They believed so strongly that a Biblical generation was 40 years. 1948 + 40 = 1988.
It didn't happen. They had to go back to the drawing board. Maybe you should consider they may have to do it again.
SteveB
Well-known member
And?
I believe that Jesus could return at any moment.
So, what's your point?
That i should stop believing in the imminent return of Jesus to take his bride to be with him?
BTW,
i remember believing that it was possible that Jesus would return in 1977, 1978 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, ....... and i still believe that he could return at any moment.
yep.
i remember thinking that Charles Capps was a strange bird because he actually put a date on the return of Jesus in 1994, and a decade or more llater. I recall pissing off the local Christian radio station Mgr because I called him to the carpet for putting a charlatan like him on the air. He later refused my application to volunteer because of it.
And?
You sound like the idea of learning is a problem for you. I thought we were students of Jesus. I've been a college student and a union apprentice. I've had plenty of times where I and my fellow students/apprentices got overly excited about some precept/principle/truth we learned and ran about talking too excitedly about it. After a while, we found out the hard way we were looking at them inaccurately and had to deal with the consequences of our excitedness.
Are you saying that you actually know when he's coming?
Because I recall him saying
Mat 24:36 WEB “But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
I further recall him telling us
Luk 19:13 KJV And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
and he then told us
Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
So, Yeah R....
What is it that you expect me to believe?
That I should trust you instead of Jesus?
In case you hadn't figured it out yet... even though we were really excited about the prospect of his coming then, we figured out that he doesn't follow us, and our desires to escape.
Those Bible studies i attended-- they taught us regularly- Jesus told us: occupy until i come. Be watchful always. Don't get sloppy and lose sight. Etc...
Indeed, he reminded us--
Luk 17:22 WEB He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.
I don't know about you... but I've been longing to see Jesus since I got saved June 27, 1977, around 9:30 that Monday night.
my daily prayer is to be accounted worthy to escape what's coming on the earth and to stand before the Son of Man!
Oh how my heart longs to be held by him, and crumple into him, when i finally see him face to face.
so... again...
your point is?
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Theology is important and not a matter to be flippant about .
That would be false witness, I gave you a description of each and showed how they could be fulfilled
it's you who should be embarrassed
first denying Christ was anointed and now denying what you were given
And that does nothing to show that he did not also decree the rebuilding of Jerusalem as this text states
Isaiah 44:24–45:13 (KJV 1900) — 24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, And he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; That stretcheth forth the heavens alone; That spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, And maketh diviners mad; That turneth wise men backward, And maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, And performeth the counsel of his messengers; That saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; And to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, And I will raise up the decayed places thereof: 27 That saith to the deep, Be dry, And I will dry up thy rivers: 28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, And shall perform all my pleasure: Even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; And to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid. 1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, Whose right hand I have holden, To subdue nations before him; And I will loose the loins of kings, To open before him the two leaved gates; And the gates shall not be shut; 2 I will go before thee, And make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, And cut in sunder the bars of iron: 3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, And hidden riches of secret places, That thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. 4 For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. 5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, There is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, That there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, And let the skies pour down righteousness: Let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, And let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? Or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? Or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? 11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, And concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, And created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, And all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, And I will direct all his ways: He shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, Not for price nor reward, Saith the LORD of hosts.
You statement does not contradict the statement I gave
But your interpretation of that statement contradicts the scripture I gave
You therefore are the one who needs to answer your questions
Come on your claim Jesus was not anointed are on the board and seen by others
good question but seeing as Israel today is not a covenant nation they have not fulfilled the stipulations of a return to the land
you will have to point out a reference which points to this day and age that they will be unconditionally returned to the land while still in disobedience and unbelief
but that is still irrelevant to the interpretation of Daniel 9
charismaticlady
Active member
Sorry, you are right about the Old Testament being about the Jews. And yes, Romans 11:25-26 and Revelation 12-13 are also about Israel coming back into the Church.It's based on the old testament.
John, while a believer in Jesus, was Jewish and grew up studying the Jewish Bible.
According to history, he received the Revelation before he wrote the gospel of John.
The Book of Revelation https://a.co/d/a6Kd3DD
The Book of Revelation | Koinonia House
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.www.khouse.org
Old Testament References and Allusions in Revelation 1-3 | Talmidim Way
The Old Testament is in the New Testament Revealed
Revelation Appendices, Extras, and Study Aids | Talmidim Way
Bible teacher and growing disciple of ×ש××¢/Jesus
Indeed.
and it's only Jewish people.... according to?
everyone to whom they can get too, who rejected the antichrist is murdered, tortured...
according to...?
have you ever looked at the amount of people who came out of the GT?
By YOUR understanding of it.
The Bible is never wrong.
there are no contradictions in theBible.
There are copious contradictions in our thinking and understanding of what the Bible actually says.
It's why it's so important to be involved in good Bible study with reputable teachers.
Are you aware that once the signing of the covenant takes place the middle and the end of the tribulation period are actual known dates?
Do you know how many so-called Christians are alive right now around the world? Jesus said there is only a few that actually find the narrow path. Those are Philadelphians. And as far as:
according to Paul.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
"Theology" is what got Jesus killed. He didn't do what Jewish "Theology" said He had to do as the Messiah, and they're still caught in the same phony theological beliefs even today. They're going to GET their "Messiah" - but they won't appreciate how that works out. Neither will the unsaved among us.
Rockson
Well-known member
What? OK there's phony theological beliefs granted! But there are no TRUE theolgocal beliefs in your books? So what about the gospel Bob? Just throw the message in the trash because it's a collection of words and thoughts?
You know I actually don't believe you believe that so how about stop dishing out what you really don't believe. I'm sure you DO believe Jesus provided right theological concepts and and things we were to believe. No need then for you in some strange unusual way to pick on the word theology. If you want to pick on other things fine but I think you're out of place even with yourself to be making such a claim.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Every "Theology" is phony to Denominations/individuals that hold a different one.
but the truth is one thing and not another
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