The first resurrection I take to be spiritual, the second physical
Why there can be no gap between the 69th and 70th week
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
DavidTree
Well-known member
Question
Are you playing the Devils advocate by being kind so as to downplay sin?
Here are some "extreme" claims, some from God and some from men.
"What ever is not of faith is sin" - Romans 14:23
Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. - Matthew 10:39
"no lie is of the Truth" - 1 John 2:21
"I cannot find 'pre-trib rapture in the Bible but i believe it anyway"
"God will leave saints behind because they are not ready"
"God would never allow His Bride to suffer tribulation."
Its real easy, demonstrate your gap theory has an atonement within the 70 weeks
If it does not include Christ's sacrificial atonement, it is worthless
SteveB
Well-known member
Okeydoke.....
Turns out that several of my books have discussions on this topic.
The Halley's Bible handbook. (https://archive.org/details/HalleysBibleHandbookHenryH.Halley) [apparently Internet Archive also has an online copy available for download.... very cool
]
John Woolvard's Every Prophecy of the Bible book (previously provided link to Amazon)
Norm Gisler's Baker's Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics (https://normangeisler.com/beca-1999-bboa-2012/)
Eidersheim's Jesus the Messiah book. (https://www.ccel.org/ccel/edersheim/lifetimes.toc.html) [apparently, CCEL has an online copy]
David Guzik's Enduring Word Commentary (online)
enduringword.com
While a few have very detailed descriptions, other's do not. They generally all agree.
The more detailed one's include explanations of Amillennialism, and Post Millennialism, along with the Pre-Millennialism views.
They all appear to describe the Pre-Mill view as the generally accepted view, with the qualifier of--- even conservatives have a problem reconciling ALL the various views together, into a single, coherent view.
I believe this is said, because they all have some basis in the bible for believing they're exclusively correct.
Each of you can do your own reading.... 3 of the books I have are available online.
Turns out that several of my books have discussions on this topic.
The Halley's Bible handbook. (https://archive.org/details/HalleysBibleHandbookHenryH.Halley) [apparently Internet Archive also has an online copy available for download.... very cool
]John Woolvard's Every Prophecy of the Bible book (previously provided link to Amazon)
Norm Gisler's Baker's Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics (https://normangeisler.com/beca-1999-bboa-2012/)
Eidersheim's Jesus the Messiah book. (https://www.ccel.org/ccel/edersheim/lifetimes.toc.html) [apparently, CCEL has an online copy]
David Guzik's Enduring Word Commentary (online)
Enduring Word Bible Commentary Daniel Chapter 9
David Guzik commentary on Daniel 9 describes the prayer of Daniel for forgiveness and restoration for Jerusalem, and his prophecy of the Seventy Weeks.
enduringword.com
While a few have very detailed descriptions, other's do not. They generally all agree.
The more detailed one's include explanations of Amillennialism, and Post Millennialism, along with the Pre-Millennialism views.
They all appear to describe the Pre-Mill view as the generally accepted view, with the qualifier of--- even conservatives have a problem reconciling ALL the various views together, into a single, coherent view.
I believe this is said, because they all have some basis in the bible for believing they're exclusively correct.
Each of you can do your own reading.... 3 of the books I have are available online.
I'll wait forever
Your gap view has no sacrificial atonement of the Christ, thus it cannot fulfill what is stated in verse 24 and therefore should be rejected
it's just that simple.
SteveB
Well-known member
I expect you'll be reading for a while.
I'm reading while my laundry is going.... there's a lot.
both laundry and books...
Sorry, no, You have Christ sacrifice outside the seven weeks.
You confessed it is outside the 60th week and the 70th week is far after it
thus it is not in the 70 weeks prescribed
Daniel 9:24 (ESV) — 24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.
and is a false theory
SteveB
Well-known member
There are books for that.
Enduring Word Bible Commentary Daniel Chapter 9
David Guzik commentary on Daniel 9 describes the prayer of Daniel for forgiveness and restoration for Jerusalem, and his prophecy of the Seventy Weeks.
enduringword.com
4. (26) What happens after the first sixty-nine weeks.
“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
a. After the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off: The Biblical term cut off is sometimes used to describe execution (see Genesis 9:11 and Exodus 31:14). Gabriel told Daniel that the Messiah will be cut off for the sake of others, not for Himself.
[rather curious that the passage says-- AFTER the 62 sevens..... messiah is cut off. ]
i. “Able chronologists have shown that the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ occurred immediately after the expiration of 483 prophetic years, of 360 days each, from the time of Artaxerxes’ order.” (Ironside)
ii. Strangely, many able commentators simply ignore these numbers. “The numbers are symbolic and not arithmetical.” (Baldwin)
iii. Cut off is a poignant description of Jesus’ earthly life up to and including the cross. “Born in another man’s stable, cradled in another man’s manger with nowhere to lay his head during his life on earth, and buried in another man’s tomb after dying on a cursed cross, the Christ of God and the Friend of the friendless was indeed cut off and had nothing.” (Heslop)
b. Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: After the Messiah was cut off, Jerusalem and her temple would be destroyed again by an overwhelming army (with a flood). Most all Bible scholars and commentators agree that this was fulfilled in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.
c. The people of the prince who is to come shall destroy: The destroying army is made up of the people of the prince who is to come. This coming prince is described more in Daniel 9:27.
SteveB
Well-known member
So, you don't know how to count?
No need. Scripture not the opinion of men move me
If you cannot demonstrate Christs atonement within the 70 weeks I could care less who you quote.
I know you confessed it is not in the 69 weeks and the 70th week is far future
so it is not there.
Your theory omits the sacrifice of Christ in the 70 weeks
it is sometimes after the 69 week but not in your 70th week
so there is no sacrifice of Christ in the alotted 70 weeks
but the prophesy includes it
Daniel 9:24 (ESV) — 24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.
SteveB
Well-known member
Ah, so you actually know everything.
Well, I'd say that you just demonstrated that you're the least trustworthy person in this discussion.
SteveB
Well-known member
That's ok.
You just told me that you know everything.
So, I'd say that you're no longer learning.
Sorry I just told you, your theory does not have Christ's atonement in the alloted 70 weeks
And you are unable to demonstrate it. There is nothing to learn from your error
I'd say you are failing
Tell the readers what week you have the sacrifice for atonement
a cardinal number 1-70
If you cannot do this simple thing, there is no reason for you to argue.
Rockson
Well-known member
I do appreciate that when one is born again we are raised from the dead that is in the spirit.
But from what I see the actual term with words, the "first resurrection" is in Rev 20: 4,6 talking of the type of resurrection.....that seems to be physical or at the time one receives a resurrection body. So if indeed it is meaning just the type of resurrections a Pre Wrath resurrection and even the resurrections of the witnesses in Rev 12 could still all be the same kind of resurrection we see later in Rev 20......as in first would mean type of that is to LIFE
The second resurrection is for the wicked.
Revelation 20:12-13
This places the physical resurrection of the just and unjust at the same time
John 5:28–29 (ESV) — 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Resurrection and judgment transpire on the last day
John 6:39 (ESV) — 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40 (ESV) — 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:44 (ESV) — 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54 (ESV) — 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 11:24 (ESV) — 24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
John 12:48 (ESV) — 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
The wicked are judged at Christ's return (the last day)
2 Thessalonians 1:6–10 (ESV) — 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
Jude 14–16 (ESV) — 14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.
see also
Matthew 25:31–46 (ESV) — 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Revelation being a highly symbolic book, I believe is the wrong place to start
Hermeneutical priority demands we start with the less symbolic and clear passages
SteveB
Well-known member
You were explicitly clear that you didn't need to read.
Post in thread 'Why there can be no gap between the 69th and 70th week' https://berean-apologetics.communit...etween-the-69th-and-70th-week.1362/post-55603
Since you have no interest in reading, that tells me that you are convinced you know more than anyone else.
As such, it's clear to me that no matter what I or anyone else says, we will be wrong. As such truth is clearly not your goal.
Being right is.
So, in my book, you're not in this discussion to learn. Only to win.
I'm not interested in this kind of dynamic.
Sorry if you cannot answer the question it is you who are not interested in truth
what week is atonement for sin made ?
Give me a number 1-70
it's a simple question you have avoided for multiple posts
Your failure to address this shows you are busted
SteveB
Well-known member
You're the one who is choosing to refuse to listen to the things I'm explaining. I can get that from atheists.
Why would you think I should accept it from people who claim to love YHVH and his Word, while refusing to consider anything from others who also love YHVH and his Word?
You've made it quite clear.
You alone know the truth.
As it's written, the backslidden in heart is full of his own ways.
It's not my job to convince you my view is the right view. I invited you to check the resources that I use. You said you don't care to be bothered.
So, you go right ahead.
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