Why The Trinity Is Wrong: Logic

[Wrangler]

Just a few applicable syllogisms, which constitute proof by contradiction.

P1. God never dies (is eternal and unchanging). Isaiah 40:28, 1 Timothy 1:17
P2. Jesus (was born, grew, became weary and) died.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

P1. God is not man. Hosea 11:9
P2. Jesus is a man.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

P1. No one has seen God. John 1:18, 1 Timothy 1:17, 1 John 4:12
P2. Many have seen Jesus.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

P1. Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Ps 110:1, Mk 16:19, Lk 22:69, Acts 2:33; 7:55, Eph 1:20, Col 3:1, Heb 1:3; 10:12, 1 Peter 3:22
P2. One cannot sit at their own right hand.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

P1. God is the Father (alone). John 17:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Prologue to Every Epistle.
P2. Jesus is not the Father.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

Trinitarians seek to use words to mean what they do not mean to such an extent that a common saying is the trinity cannot be understood, let alone explained. If so, no responsible person has any business advocating, as true, such nonsensical edit. It’s an Appeal to edit.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Just a few applicable syllogisms, which constitute proof by contradiction.

P1. God never dies (is eternal and unchanging). Isaiah 40:28, 1 Timothy 1:17
P2. Jesus (was born, grew, became weary and) died.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

Jesus arose from the grave uncorrupted.

He is so much better than you are.

P1. God is not man. Hosea 11:9
P2. Jesus is a man.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

You need to understand Hosea 11:9. The context is lying. God does what He says will do. Tell me one time Jesus didn't do what He said He would do.

On the otherhand... You.... Yeah you lie.

P1. No one has seen God. John 1:18, 1 Timothy 1:17, 1 John 4:12
P2. Many have seen Jesus.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

You need to complete those verses. Just half truths and empty references.

the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

P1. Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Ps 110:1, Mk 16:19, Lk 22:69, Acts 2:33; 7:55, Eph 1:20, Col 3:1, Heb 1:3; 10:12, 1 Peter 3:22
P2. One cannot sit at their own right hand.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

God can do ANYTHING.... YOU can even "walk and chew gum" at the same time.

P1. God is the Father (alone). John 17:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Prologue to Every Epistle.
P2. Jesus is not the Father.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

Trinitarians seek to use words to mean what they do not mean to such an extent that a common saying is the trinity cannot be understood, let alone explained. If so, no responsible person has any business advocating, as true, such nonsensical edit. It’s an Appeal to edit

God is both simple and complex. Surely you know this.

 

[Wrangler]

God is both simple and complex.

Contradiction is not a type of complex.

 

[Fred]

Based on the OP, this would mean Jesus is not a man!

1 Samuel 16:7
But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

Job 10:4
Have You eyes of flesh?
Or do You see as a man sees?


But yet, the Lord Jesus fully knows the hearts of all.

Acts 1:24-25
(24) And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who knows the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
(25) to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”

The "Lord" is Jesus.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-trinity-made-easy.87/page-5#post-3506

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.

The "Lord" who is coming is Jesus (1 Corinthians 11:26)


Revelation 2:23 (cf. Jeremiah 17:10)
And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.


a. God alone fully knows the hearts of all (1 Kings 8:39).
b. The Lord Jesus fully knows the hearts of all (Acts 1:24; 1 Corinthians 4:5; Revelation 2:23; cf. John 2:24-25)
c. Therefore, the Lord Jesus is God.


Luke 16:15
And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.

Since Jesus fully know the hearts of all people means that He identified Himself as being God.

 

[Fred]

Contradiction is not a type of complex.

Jesus is both the High Priest (Hebrews 3:1) and the sacrifice (Hebrews 9:26) - the two were never properly the same in the OT.
Contradiction? Nope, Jesus is both.
Why?
Because the Bible says so (Acts 17:11).

 

[Diserner]

No one has seen God?

You really want to stand by that logic?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Contradiction is not a type of complex.

No contradiction exists.

I'll give a simple yet complex example.

God is love.

Do you deny the simplistic yet complex nature of God's love?

 

[Wrangler]

No one has seen God?

You really want to stand by that logic?

It is technically a premise. I kind of assumed people are generally familiar with syllogisms, where the truth of the logical conclusion rests on the truth of each premise.

P1. No one has seen God. John 1:18, 1 Timothy 1:17, 1 John 4:12
P2. Many have seen Jesus.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

In symbolic logic, P1 denotes the major premise, the bigger or more profound point. This is why I have 3 references to support it. P2 denotes the minor premise, which is generally considered more common knowledge.

You might want to invoke a Scripture verse other than the 3 I did. And I can understand that. However, my approach is to take things one at a time. I can admit that there is Scripture that appears to support the man-is-god thesis. However, even if true, it does not support the trinity. See where I am going with that? This is why the title of these threads is about the trinity and not the man-is-god thesis.

For now, please stick to the verses cited in the OP in standing by the logic. Thanks!

 

[Wrangler]

No contradiction exists.

I'll give a simple yet complex example.

God is love.

Do you deny the simplistic yet complex nature of God's love?

If you want to discuss "simple yet complex," feel free to start another thread. This thread is dealing with logic, the art of the non-contradictory identification of truth.

 

[Fred]

P1. No one has seen God.

No one has seen the Father (John 6:46).
But God was seen (Exodus 24:11).

Since "they saw God" but it wasn't the Father then who did they see?

 

[praise_yeshua]

If you want to discuss "simple yet complex," feel free to start another thread. This thread is dealing with logic, the art of the non-contradictory identification of truth.

Again. You are rejecting the obvious. You are using the logic of a child. Children argue that 1+1=2 as if such simplistic expressions always accurately describes facts found in the Scripture.

They do not. I am talking about logical constructs. You are not using logic. You're playing with children's toys.

 

[Doug Brents]

Just a few applicable syllogisms, which constitute proof by contradiction.

P1. God never dies (is eternal and unchanging). Isaiah 40:28, 1 Timothy 1:17
P2. Jesus (was born, grew, became weary and) died.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

Jesus was both God and Man. The Man portion (His physical body that He "put on") died. But His Spirit, the part of Him that is God, did not die.

P1. God is not man. Hosea 11:9
P2. Jesus is a man.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

We will look at John 1:1-3, & 14-18 below.

P1. No one has seen God. John 1:18, 1 Timothy 1:17, 1 John 4:12
P2. Many have seen Jesus.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

See above.

P1. Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Ps 110:1, Mk 16:19, Lk 22:69, Acts 2:33; 7:55, Eph 1:20, Col 3:1, Heb 1:3; 10:12, 1 Peter 3:22
P2. One cannot sit at their own right hand.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

God is not a single being, but three distinct beings who are so united in power and purpose that they are one.

P1. God is the Father (alone). John 17:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6, and Prologue to Every Epistle.
P2. Jesus is not the Father.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

John 17 and 1 Cor 8 above both equate Jesus with the Father as God, as does John 1 as we will discuss below.

Trinitarians seek to use words to mean what they do not mean to such an extent that a common saying is the trinity cannot be understood, let alone explained. If so, no responsible person has any business advocating, as true, such nonsensical idolatry. It’s an Appeal to Ignorance.

While your reasoning seems reasonable, remember that human reasoning must submit to the truth of Scripture, and must not contradict Scripture. Scripture says clearly that Jesus IS in fact God. Jesus claims to be God on several occasions (John 8:58 for example).

John 1 says that The Word was both with God, and was God. This makes them two beings that are equal.
We are then told that it was by and through the Word that everything was made. This means that the Word was eternal; ie: existing outside of time with, and as a part of, God.
Then we are told in verse 14 that the Word became flesh and dwelt among men. This means that a portion of the creator God put on flesh and became like what He had created. In Phil 2:5-7 we are told that Jesus emptied Himself. Of what did He empty Himself? He emptied Himself of all the authority, power, and glory of being God. But He did not cease to be God, and could have taken back what He had laid aside at any time.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus was both God and Man.

No verse says that. Do you suppose you can refute logic on suppositions?

 

[Wrangler]

We will look at John 1:1-3, & 14-18 below.

Wow! How about you deal with the logic based on the verses provided?

 

[Wrangler]

God is not a single being

Yes, God is a single being. See the Shema. See the dictionary.

 

[Wrangler]

John 17 and 1 Cor 8 above both equate Jesus with the Father as God

No. 1 COR 8:6 specifically says "For us there is one God, the Father." Please construct a stronger anti-triniatarian sentence than that.

 

[Wrangler]

Scripture says clearly that Jesus IS in fact God.

There is no such verse. Scripture clearly says that Jesus is the son of God - not God.

 

[Wrangler]

John 1 says that The Word was both with God, and was God. This makes them two beings that are equal.

It is exegesis to suppose that God's word is anything but the literal words of God and suppose IT is a being. But again, stick to the verses and logic provided in the OP. Thanks!

 

[Wrangler]

John 17:1-3 ... equate Jesus with the Father as God

The exact opposite is true. Father ... you have given (the Son) authority over everyone ... this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God. Given that the Father is the only true God, what does that mean for the trinity? Not equal.

 

[Doug Brents]

It is exegesis to suppose that God's word is anything but the literal words of God and suppose IT is a being. But again, stick to the verses and logic provided in the OP. Thanks!

No, the "Word of God" comes from the Greek Logos.

logos, (Greek: “word,” “reason,” or “plan”) plural logoi, in ancient Greek philosophy and early Christian theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning.

Thus it is the Reason of God, the Plan of God, that was given form in the body of Christ.

The exact opposite is true. Father ... you have given (the Son) authority over everyone ... this is the way to have eternal life—to know you, the only true God. Given that the Father is the only true God, what does that mean for the trinity? Not equal.

You are correct, Jesus made Himself submissive to the Father, and thus became lesser even than the angels. But because of His obedience, He was elevated back to the right hand of the Father, and is back in His rightful place.