Why Calvinism is a bad thing.

I'll read Spurgeon if you read the Bible. rofl 🤣
"Reading the Bible" is what keeps getting me in trouble.
  • As a former Athiest recently converted, I was happy with the local Catholic Church until it came to "The Feast of the Blessed Virgin" and I was reading Luke 8:20 Scripture (“Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You.”) ... I know where "brothers" come from and that posed problems for a "Perpetual Virgin".
  • Moving on to the Church Of God of Anderson, Indiana (Wesleyan Holiness), I spent about a decade learning "Wesleyan Arminian" theology and trying to reconcile all this talk about "free will" and our choosing god with the empirical reality of my salvation: [I was setting enemies on fire and transporting drugs across state lines, when God literally spoke to me and made me an offer that I could not refuse.] Reading the Bible led me to 4 truths that contradicted what I was being taught:
    • People are no darn good.
    • God saves us "just because" ... we don't deserve it.
    • God does not try, God just DOES.
    • God finishes what God starts.
  • Attending a Pentecostal Church, I was (and remain) a continuationist [because there are no convincing arguments that God said He would stop doing anything. God COULD create another Apostle (like He chose Saul/Paul) if God wanted to, but the extraordinary claim of BEING an Apostle would require extraordinary proof. So, I was predisposed to accept "tongues" at face value [even if it was not MY GIFT] ... until reading the Bible illuminated stark differences between what they were doing and what Scripture claimed the GIFT was. [Once Again, reading the Bible got me in trouble.]
  • It was at the Evangelical Free Church that I met an "Adult Sunday School" teacher named Hank that had a Doctrorate in Theology from Moody (which meant nothing to me) and explained the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism as a side note during a lesson. That was when I realized that my 4 Truths already had a name ... Calvinism ... and I learned they correlated to the acrostic T.U.*.I.P. I never gave any thought to "Atonement" beyond gratitude that Christ had died for ME! So I arrived at 4-point Calvinism from READING SCRIPTURE while attending 100% NON-CALVINIST Churches.
As I said, Reading the Bible is what got me into the trouble of being a:
  • Doctrine of Grace
  • Continuationist
  • Credobaptist
  • Child of the Living God.
[Try finding a Church where I belong.] ;)
 
"Reading the Bible" is what keeps getting me in trouble.
  • As a former Athiest recently converted, I was happy with the local Catholic Church until it came to "The Feast of the Blessed Virgin" and I was reading Luke 8:20 Scripture (“Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, wishing to see You.”) ... I know where "brothers" come from and that posed problems for a "Perpetual Virgin".
  • Moving on to the Church Of God of Anderson, Indiana (Wesleyan Holiness), I spent about a decade learning "Wesleyan Arminian" theology and trying to reconcile all this talk about "free will" and our choosing god with the empirical reality of my salvation: [I was setting enemies on fire and transporting drugs across state lines, when God literally spoke to me and made me an offer that I could not refuse.] Reading the Bible led me to 4 truths that contradicted what I was being taught:
    • People are no darn good.
    • God saves us "just because" ... we don't deserve it.
    • God does not try, God just DOES.
    • God finishes what God starts.
  • Attending a Pentecostal Church, I was (and remain) a continuationist [because there are no convincing arguments that God said He would stop doing anything. God COULD create another Apostle (like He chose Saul/Paul) if God wanted to, but the extraordinary claim of BEING an Apostle would require extraordinary proof. So, I was predisposed to accept "tongues" at face value [even if it was not MY GIFT] ... until reading the Bible illuminated stark differences between what they were doing and what Scripture claimed the GIFT was. [Once Again, reading the Bible got me in trouble.]
  • It was at the Evangelical Free Church that I met an "Adult Sunday School" teacher named Hank that had a Doctrorate in Theology from Moody (which meant nothing to me) and explained the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism as a side note during a lesson. That was when I realized that my 4 Truths already had a name ... Calvinism ... and I learned they correlated to the acrostic T.U.*.I.P. I never gave any thought to "Atonement" beyond gratitude that Christ had died for ME! So I arrived at 4-point Calvinism from READING SCRIPTURE while attending 100% NON-CALVINIST Churches.
As I said, Reading the Bible is what got me into the trouble of being a:
  • Doctrine of Grace
  • Continuationist
  • Credobaptist
  • Child of the Living God.
[Try finding a Church where I belong.] ;)
Thanks for sharing your journey with us. We are still on a journey and we should all be open to change. :) I was once a very stubborn reformed calvinist. I speak from lots of decades of experience. :). And I was very proud to be one too. Just ask @dizerner @sethproton @TibiasDad @PeanutGallery about that as I debated them for years and wasn’t so nice to them in the process .
 
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Arminius' description of preceding grace is almost exactly how I would describe it.
I believe you.
I suspect you are in the 'Arminian minority' (minority among Arminians).
Jacob Arminius and John Wesley did not agree 100% on the details of Grace.
 
Horsefeathers. There is a right side and a wrong side.

Either God can impart His Truth to people so that they have their doctrine straight or He cannot.

Since He can that means there is a right side and a wrong side.

If "both sides can be wrong" then we are all damned.

The right side may yet to be discovered....

How many sides were the six blind men and the elephant?

What does 6 blind men and the elephant mean?
Blind men and an elephant - Wikipedia

The moral of the parable is that humans have a tendency to claim absolute truth based on their limited, subjective experience as they ignore other people's limited, subjective experiences which may be equally true. The parable originated in the ancient Indian subcontinent, from where it has been widely diffused.
 
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BINGO!
  • "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. - Ezekiel 36:26[NASB]
  • Jesus responded and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." - John 3:3 [NASB]
  • So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. - Romans 9:16 [NASB]
  • But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), - Ephesians 2:4-5 [NASB]
When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" And looking at them, Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." - Matthew 19:25-26 [NASB]

what were YOU saying?

Quoting Scripture alone does not mean I see what you see.

"If your right eye offend you pluck it out. " Matthew 5:29

Just do it.

Has your right eye ever caused you to sin?
 
Samuel was not available to be "summoned", only demons impersonating Samuel.
[Is the power of Satan strong enough to snatch a soul from "Abraham's Bosom" (God) to "summon the dead"? ... There are no ghosts.]

Of course Satan can fake that when God allows. But, that's what not happened. If it were a demon the witch would not have freaked out and panicked like she did. Ever see a seance where the one in charge freaks out and panics? No... they are the ones in control.

think!
 
God is also dealing with angels!

Pathological angels who keep blaming God for their own faults.
Who keep trying to justify themselves to the other angels with rationales saying that God is unfair and unjust.

To end the "bs" the fallen angels try to push, God is using sinful man's examples to embarrass and refute them.
For when mankind fell? Man took on the nature of Satan and his angels. In essence, man became a child of Satan.
Total depravity!

That is why we see in Genesis 3:15, the Lord calling fallen man, "his seed" (referring to Satan)!


And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

grace and peace ..................
Poppycock.
 
God has no wrath in himself , no wrath between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit . No anger , vengeance or retribution which is what wrath means . God is immutable therefor there cannot be wrath from Father to Son. It’s nothing but a fallacious argument based upon human presuppositions and doctrines .

hope this helps !!!
Then I guess all those scriptures that speak of His wrath; wrath against all unrighteousness, wrath against Israel when judgment of them came from Assyria by God's appointment, His wrath against Assyria for their wrong motives in going after Judah, the wrath of God we see in Rev against the wicked, the beast, etc.made it into our Bible by mistake. All the places where it says God is angry---they need to be removed? The scripture that says vengeance is mine, and the Lord will repay, and He will take retribution into His own hands. All those do not belong in our Bible?

Pray tell, what is you explanation for them? What do they mean?

If love doesn't hate evil it is not love.
 
Then I guess all those scriptures that speak of His wrath; wrath against all unrighteousness, wrath against Israel when judgment of them came from Assyria by God's appointment, His wrath against Assyria for their wrong motives in going after Judah, the wrath of God we see in Rev against the wicked, the beast, etc.made it into our Bible by mistake. All the places where it says God is angry---they need to be removed? The scripture that says vengeance is mine, and the Lord will repay, and He will take retribution into His own hands. All those do not belong in our Bible?

Pray tell, what is you explanation for them? What do they mean?

If love doesn't hate evil it is not love.
Conflating again I’m taking about the Trinity not human reprobate sinners who hate God.
 
Conflating again I’m taking about the Trinity not human reprobate sinners who hate God.
Then you changed the subject in order to respond. I was not talking about the Trinity but the character of God which includes wrath against evil and the wicked. Not that there was wrath between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit or as a negative aspect of God.
 
Then you changed the subject in order to respond. I was not talking about the Trinity but the character of God which includes wrath against evil and the wicked. Not that there was wrath between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit or as a negative aspect of God.
No there is no wrath in the Trinity. That is a foreign and false concept nowhere found in the Bible
 
Normally I'd insist on someone making claims like this to provide Scripture. But you can't. And you haven't. So I won't since all the "proof" you've provided is opinion.

Now "Calvinists" through the ages have been very particular about how they present their soteriology. You can either choose ( laugh ) to address that here or not. But I'll raise your "'cuz" with a "nuh uh" and this half of a millennium debate will continue on in another forum as stupidly and fruitlessly as in all the others.

I think Calvinists enjoy watching many other Christians squirm with their Sovereignty of God syndrome. God choosing to send souls that are equally and hopelessly unqualified as they are to Hell.

Why do they enjoy this? Total depravity is at work.

There are various believers who think God is pleased with them when something irrational is mistaken for faith, and they are willing to look irrational in their eyes of others for the sake of believing God. (as they see it)

Another thing that has entered my mind for consideration. Why Irresistible Grace is so appealing to those who stand upon it.
Those Calvinists want to believe God forced them to believe, because they felt guilty about how they hated God before regeneration.
That God had to force them to believe. Irresistible grace and total depravity alleviates their guilt feelings for having hated God before their salvation. They were ashamed of being associated with believing in God.
 
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I think Calvinists enjoy watching many other Christians squirm with their Sovereignty of God syndrome. God choosing to send souls that are equally and hopelessly unqualified as they are is to Hell.

Why do they enjoy this? Total depravity is at work.

There are various believers who think God is pleased with them when something irrational is mistaken for faith, and they are willing to look irrational in their eyes of others for the sake of believing God. (as they see it)

Another thing that has entered my mind for consideration. Why Irresistible Grace is so appealing to those who stand upon it.
Those Calvinists want to believe God forced them to believe, because they felt guilty about how they hated God before regeneration.
That God had to force them to believe. Irresistible grace and total depravity alleviates their guilt feelings for having hated God before their salvation. They were ashamed of being associated with believing in God.
The voice of reason.
 
I think Calvinists enjoy watching many other Christians squirm with their Sovereignty of God syndrome. God choosing to send souls that are equally and hopelessly unqualified as they are to Hell.
Is that really what you think? Why would the thought even occur to someone? Or was it just one more hateful thing to say?
Why do they enjoy this? Total depravity is at work
Oh. You not only think it now it is considered fact. And gets applauded as the voice of reason? Now that sounds like total depravity at work.

Here is another way in which it is at work. Let's take a walk back to the Garden of Eden. Adam has told Eve what God has told him about what they can and cannot do regarding food from the trees. God has provided everything for them. Plenty of delicious food, eternal life, a place to live and thrive with nothing evil at all. One thing He withholds. The knowledge of evil as well as good. The knowledge of which they can only get from that one tree. The judgement for eating of it is death.

Along comes the serpent and suggests to Eve that she will not die, that God only keeps that fruit from them because He doesn't want them to become like Him. She will be much better if she does eat it. Well this sounds good to Eve so she eats it and gives to Adam and he eats to.


Time goes by. Children are born in pain, Adam and Eve often can't get along, they are exhausted with their labors. In time the whole world is filled with sinners all fighting for supremacy and autonomy for God has become their enemy. The central cry against Him can be summed up in "I will do it my way!"

But good news comes, the Redeemer arrives to rescue people from this evil they cannot escape that dwells in them. He dies on the cross to take their penalty for them. Well this infuriates the serpent and he begins to sow seeds here and there in the meeting place with God, among those God has redeemed and is redeeming.

"God has made a puppet of you," he whispers. To another he says, "Jesus may have died for you. Lovely. But look at all the people God didn't save. If He only saves some look how evil that would make Him. He did not save you because He chose to. You could never trust Him to do that." And some take up this cry and ponder how to make God both the Redeemer and at the same time not have to trust Him to redeem them. So a man named Finney takes up his weapons and carries them into the place where they teach this horrendous thing that God would do such an awful thing as to violate the free will that He gave them to do as they please, and set out to kill Calvinism.

For a time it seemed as though he were successful. Generations came and went and there were a people of God who had never heard anything but this new thought that entered into Christ's church, and never gave it so much as a questioning glance. But after many years, Calvinism was discovered to only be sleeping and not dead.

When faced with the possibility of not having autonomy in their salvation any longer, and the horrible fear that if they would have to trust in the goodness of God rather than their own choices and decisions, they began echoing that voice of the serpent. "It makes God evil! God would never, never violate my free will and make me love Him! God wants people who love Him on their own,not people He forces to love Him! I did it my way!"

It sounds good and right to them and they feel much more comfortable believing they made the choice and therein lies their security. Why bother to look and see if those things they think and say about Calvinism are true. It is enough that they can quote pages of scriptures if kept separate from certain others, to deny Calvinism in an endless argument. (Arguing is so fun!!) The added benefit is that it is a good feeling to look down on their brothers and sisters in Christ and say evil things (ah there it is, that dang tree) about what those people believe, walking the moral high ground, singing, "love, love, love, all we need is love."
 
Is that really what you think? Why would the thought even occur to someone? Or was it just one more hateful thing to say?

Oh. You not only think it now it is considered fact. And gets applauded as the voice of reason? Now that sounds like total depravity at work.

Here is another way in which it is at work. Let's take a walk back to the Garden of Eden. Adam has told Eve what God has told him about what they can and cannot do regarding food from the trees. God has provided everything for them. Plenty of delicious food, eternal life, a place to live and thrive with nothing evil at all. One thing He withholds. The knowledge of evil as well as good. The knowledge of which they can only get from that one tree. The judgement for eating of it is death.

Along comes the serpent and suggests to Eve that she will not die, that God only keeps that fruit from them because He doesn't want them to become like Him. She will be much better if she does eat it. Well this sounds good to Eve so she eats it and gives to Adam and he eats to.


Time goes by. Children are born in pain, Adam and Eve often can't get along, they are exhausted with their labors. In time the whole world is filled with sinners all fighting for supremacy and autonomy for God has become their enemy. The central cry against Him can be summed up in "I will do it my way!"

But good news comes, the Redeemer arrives to rescue people from this evil they cannot escape that dwells in them. He dies on the cross to take their penalty for them. Well this infuriates the serpent and he begins to sow seeds here and there in the meeting place with God, among those God has redeemed and is redeeming.

"God has made a puppet of you," he whispers. To another he says, "Jesus may have died for you. Lovely. But look at all the people God didn't save. If He only saves some look how evil that would make Him. He did not save you because He chose to. You could never trust Him to do that." And some take up this cry and ponder how to make God both the Redeemer and at the same time not have to trust Him to redeem them. So a man named Finney takes up his weapons and carries them into the place where they teach this horrendous thing that God would do such an awful thing as to violate the free will that He gave them to do as they please, and set out to kill Calvinism.

For a time it seemed as though he were successful. Generations came and went and there were a people of God who had never heard anything but this new thought that entered into Christ's church, and never gave it so much as a questioning glance. But after many years, Calvinism was discovered to only be sleeping and not dead.

When faced with the possibility of not having autonomy in their salvation any longer, and the horrible fear that if they would have to trust in the goodness of God rather than their own choices and decisions, they began echoing that voice of the serpent. "It makes God evil! God would never, never violate my free will and make me love Him! God wants people who love Him on their own,not people He forces to love Him! I did it my way!"

It sounds good and right to them and they feel much more comfortable believing they made the choice and therein lies their security. Why bother to look and see if those things they think and say about Calvinism are true. It is enough that they can quote pages of scriptures if kept separate from certain others, to deny Calvinism in an endless argument. (Arguing is so fun!!) The added benefit is that it is a good feeling to look down on their brothers and sisters in Christ and say evil things (ah there it is, that dang tree) about what those people believe, walking the moral high ground, singing, "love, love, love, all we need is love."
Its all addressed here in your post above

 
I believe you.
I suspect you are in the 'Arminian minority' (minority among Arminians).
Jacob Arminius and John Wesley did not agree 100% on the details of Grace.

I see a lot of Wesleyanism as tending towards self-righteous legalistic "almost" sinless perfectionism.

It's definitely not the majority though, even if a substantial piece of the pie.

I'd be curious on your thoughts about it how you see the differences.
 
Usually folks are divided into either Calvin or Arminian camps.

The entire Christian world is somehow meant to be variations of either of these.

The truth though is there is another option..

Unlike Calvinism..

Salvation that IS by free will, believing Jesus is God, that He died and rose again and that by believing in Him you have eternal life.

Unlike Arminianism.

Salvation can in no way be undone. Not by the person who received it and not by Jesus who promised it.

Read John 3:36, 5:24, 10:28. Plus Romans 10:9-10. Among others.

Predestination is about entrance to heaven pre set for a believer.. not about salvation being pre set for some and not others.

It's also about the destiny of God's churches.
You are on the right track :)
 
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