Why Calvinism is a bad thing.

[Dizerner]

Usually folks are divided into either Calvin or Arminian camps.

The entire Christian world is somehow meant to be variations of either of these.

The truth though is there is another option..

Unlike Calvinism..

Salvation that IS by free will, believing Jesus is God, that He died and rose again and that by believing in Him you have eternal life.

Unlike Arminianism.

Salvation can in no way be undone. Not by the person who received it and not by Jesus who promised it.

Read John 3:36, 5:24, 10:28. Plus Romans 10:9-10. Among others.

Predestination is about entrance to heaven pre set for a believer.. not about salvation being pre set for some and not others.

It's also about the destiny of God's churches.

First of all... OSAS is still considered within the pale of Arminians.

I estimate about 30% of Arminians worldwide accept OSAS.

Jacobus Arminius the founder of Arminianism believed in Eternal Security, although he honestly admitted a lot of Scriptures looked against it.


Second of all, OSAS is ridiculous and unbiblical.

If God doesn't force us to become saved as in Calvinism, why would he force us to stay saved and rape our free wills?

This is nothing less than keeping the bad parts of Calvinism.


Third of all, some things are a true dichotomy.

Either there is free will or there is isn't. Either God decrees all things, or God does not decree all things.

It may make people feel super special to think they found that secret "out" of C/A, but some things are just a true dichotomy.


Fourth of all, there has always been a third option, those who reject the sin nature and need for atonement.

Although classically called "Pelagians" it's not important what terminology is used.

I would prefer to use a different term for the C/A/P divisions.

 

[Arial]

No there is no wrath in the Trinity. That is a foreign and false concept nowhere found in the Bible

Wrath is not a bad word. Wrath is not evil. Human's misuse wrath. God does not. If God expresses wrath then He must have it. Do you deny that He expresses/exhibits wrath?

 

[Dizerner]

Wrath is not a bad word. Wrath is not evil. Human's misuse wrath. God does not. If God expresses wrath then He must have it. Do you deny that He expresses/exhibits wrath?

It's this warped idea of secular feel-good love invading the church.

I'm genuinely surprised deniers of PSA don't just deny hell altogether.

 

[civic]

Wrath is not a bad word. Wrath is not evil. Human's misuse wrath. God does not. If God expresses wrath then He must have it. Do you deny that He expresses/exhibits wrath?

Look it up in a lexicon- wrath means anger, vengeance, retribution.

That does not and cannot exist within the Tri-Unity of the Person in the Godhead,

 

[civic]

See wrath defined here is exactly what I said it means

Strong's Greek: 3709. ὀργή (orgé) -- impulse, wrath

 

[Arial]

Look it up in a lexicon- wrath means anger, vengeance, retribution.

That does not and cannot exist within the Tri-Unity of the Person in the Godhead,

If it doesn't exist in Him then it He would never be angry, never take vengeance against anything, or make retribution for any---including redeeming them. Once again you are defining God by humanity.

 

[Arial]

Look it up in a lexicon- wrath means anger, vengeance, retribution.

That does not and cannot exist within the Tri-Unity of the Person in the Godhead,

If God is not angry at sin and sinners there is absolutely no reason to send Jesus to the cross to save anyone. No need for salvation at all. You cannot say God is angry with sin and at the same time say there is no anger in Him.

 

[civic]

If it doesn't exist in Him then it He would never be angry, never take vengeance against anything, or make retribution for any---including redeeming them. Once again you are defining God by humanity.

We are discussing the Father, Son and Holy Spirit relationship. God is Immutable.

 

[GeneZ]

looks like a healthy one too

Meat of the Word... and Bread of Life, diet.

 

[GeneZ]

If God is not angry at sin and sinners there is absolutely no reason to send Jesus to the cross to save anyone. No need for salvation at all. You cannot say God is angry with sin and at the same time say there is no anger in Him.

It is through the Son that such anger is expressed.
For the Son is both Soul and Deity in union.
Its by the Soul of God we see expressions that Deity is not to be bothered with.

​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​

so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16​

​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving ​

violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

Keep in mind.. Soul and Deity are two different natures!

The one who became the man Jesus in the Incarnation, was preexisting in Heaven as Jehovah and Soul before taking on a perfect human body.

As shown in those two OT passages. This Union of Soul and Deity was being manifested in the One who was called the "Lord God of Israel."

grace and peace ...............

 

[GeneZ]

Is that really what you think? Why would the thought even occur to someone? Or was it just one more hateful thing to say?

God sovereignly had me say it...

Its not hateful when God makes such a choice. Just like He sovereignly chooses whom to save and who to condemn.
I had no choice in the matter. I just had to say it. I was drawn/dragged into saying it.

 

[Arial]

We are discussing the Father, Son and Holy Spirit relationship. God is Immutable.

You are. I am not and never was. You are simply trying to accuse a theology of something in a way that looks horrible so as to appear to be right. But if the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One, then Jesus and the Holy Spirit as well as the Father all express wrath.They all feel the same way about everything.

You are trying to make that sound like the Triunity of God is boiling with wrath within Himself----and a human definition of wrath at that----if someone acknowledges that God must have wrath if in fact He displays it---irregardless of what it is displayed against---that being sin and evil. And you like to believe that God would have no wrath against any person, as that is the image of Him you build, and in spite of the fact that the Bible is full of His wrath coming against people from beginning to end.

God has no wrath against the believer, those He is is the new covenant with, because Jesus took care of that Himself. We will never have to face His wrath because Jesus satisfied His Justice against that in which His just wrath was certain to come. Sin.

Show me where that is not logical or reasonable.

 

[GeneZ]

You are. I am not and never was. You are simply trying to accuse a theology of something in a way that looks horrible so as to appear to be right. But if the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One, then Jesus and the Holy Spirit as well as the Father all express wrath.They all feel the same way about everything.

To see the Son is to see the Father. Remember? Its by means of the Trinity that we can know God's wrath.

Without the Trinity? No wrath to be known. No explanation of Justice. People would just unexplainably disappear and be no more.
We would be totally apathetic not knowing the meaning of our actions.

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​

so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving ​

violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

God is "spirit." John 4:23-24

God is not "soul."

The Lord God of Israel was a union of Deity and Soul. No body until the Incarnation!




grace and peace ......................

 

[Arial]

God sovereignly had me say it...

What a jokester you are! The only way you are able to understand the Tulip of C/R is to make the false claim that God puts all our words in our mouths, deals with us as though with puppet strings. Well that is your shortcoming not the theology's.

God's sovereignty does not take away man's responsibility---therefore you are responsible for your own mockery of His sovereignty, and millions of His people. People are so careless at times. As though they never read or understood what it means to fear God.

Its not hateful when God makes such a choice. Just like He sovereignly chooses whom to save and who to condemn.
I had no choice in the matter. I just had to say it. I was drawn/dragged into saying it.

Gal 6:6-10
Prov 1:7
Prov 8:13
Ecc 12:13
Psalm 25:14
Ps 86:11

Make sure you don't read them.

 

[Arial]

To see the Son is to see the Father. Remember? Its by means of the Trinity that we can know God's wrath.

Do we ever see Jesus exhibiting wrath in the scriptures? I remember a few times. Do we see Him pouring out His wrath on all the wicked in Rev? A hard yes.

I keep looking for logic in these arguments in vain. I never said or implied that we know God's wrath by the Trinity. It is laughable to say I did. That is something civic introduced into the conversation and you took up with glee. But here is an interesting fact. We know of God's wrath even from the visible creation If you don't believe the Bible says that, read Romans 1.

God is "spirit." John 4:23-24

God is not "soul."

The Lord God of Israel was a union of Deity and Soul. No body until the Incarnation!

Soul and spirit are used interchangeably in the Bible. But you have gone way off into another topic. Good save.

 

[Arial]

It is through the Son that such anger is expressed.
For the Son is both Soul and Deity in union.
Its by the Soul of God we see expressions that Deity is not to be bothered with.

​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​

so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16​

​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving ​

violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

Keep in mind.. Soul and Deity are two different natures!

The one who became the man Jesus in the Incarnation, was preexisting in Heaven as Jehovah and Soul before taking on a perfect human body.

As shown in those two OT passages. This Union of Soul and Deity was being manifested in the One who was called the "Lord God of Israel."

grace and peace ...............

Oh wow. A whole brand new view of Christianity. A whole new thing called apologetics that cannot use apologetics to support itself.

 

[civic]

You are. I am not and never was. You are simply trying to accuse a theology of something in a way that looks horrible so as to appear to be right. But if the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One, then Jesus and the Holy Spirit as well as the Father all express wrath.They all feel the same way about everything.

You are trying to make that sound like the Triunity of God is boiling with wrath within Himself----and a human definition of wrath at that----if someone acknowledges that God must have wrath if in fact He displays it---irregardless of what it is displayed against---that being sin and evil. And you like to believe that God would have no wrath against any person, as that is the image of Him you build, and in spite of the fact that the Bible is full of His wrath coming against people from beginning to end.

God has no wrath against the believer, those He is is the new covenant with, because Jesus took care of that Himself. We will never have to face His wrath because Jesus satisfied His Justice against that in which His just wrath was certain to come. Sin.

Show me where that is not logical or reasonable.

No theology is the study of God. So I’m going back to who God is within His own Being which is immutable and eternal. His nature and character doesn’t change .

 

[civic]

You are. I am not and never was. You are simply trying to accuse a theology of something in a way that looks horrible so as to appear to be right. But if the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One, then Jesus and the Holy Spirit as well as the Father all express wrath.They all feel the same way about everything.

You are trying to make that sound like the Triunity of God is boiling with wrath within Himself----and a human definition of wrath at that----if someone acknowledges that God must have wrath if in fact He displays it---irregardless of what it is displayed against---that being sin and evil. And you like to believe that God would have no wrath against any person, as that is the image of Him you build, and in spite of the fact that the Bible is full of His wrath coming against people from beginning to end.

God has no wrath against the believer, those He is is the new covenant with, because Jesus took care of that Himself. We will never have to face His wrath because Jesus satisfied His Justice against that in which His just wrath was certain to come. Sin.

Show me where that is not logical or reasonable.

And I also wanted to say the following publicly.

I hope you don't have any hard feelings towards me and I apologize if I have offended you in any way. just so you know when I was saved in 1980 I was mentored by a Dutch Reformed Pastor for several years. I really was a die hard reformed calvinist for a long time and if you think I'm misrepresenting calvinism I'm ok with you calling that out. I want everyone here to feel its ok to disagree with others and feel safe to do so. And all I ask of anyone is to try and remember the golden rule and treat others kindly. I don't think thats to much to ask of any adult here on the forum myself included. I really respect your passion with your faith.

 

[GeneZ]

What a jokester you are! The only way you are able to understand the Tulip of C/R is to make the false claim that God puts all our words in our mouths, deals with us as though with puppet strings. Well that is your shortcoming not the theology's.

God's sovereignty does not take away man's responsibility---therefore you are responsible for your own mockery of His sovereignty, and millions of His people. People are so careless at times. As though they never read or understood what it means to fear God.

Gal 6:6-10
Prov 1:7
Prov 8:13
Ecc 12:13
Psalm 25:14
Ps 86:11

Make sure you don't read them.

How did God chose you IN Him? Why did God choose you IN Him?

 

[Arial]

Its all addressed here in your post above

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/how-augustine-corrupted-the-church-with-his-many-heresies.80/#post-944

By all means, don't actually address my post yourself!