Why Calvinism is a bad thing.

See below for the difference between Arminius and Calvin on Irresistible Grace.

I know John Calvin and Jacob Arminius held different beliefs … all I was saying is “Prevenient Grace” is a concept introduced by John Wesley in the 18th Century (LONG after both Calvin and Arminius).
 
A fallen nature, a corrupted will, an innate attraction to sin.

Ephesians 2:1-3 [NASB20]​
And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.​

Like Paul said, we are free to follow our will down the road to “children of wrath” … until and unless “it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for His good pleasure.” [Philippians 2:13 NASB]


The sin nature resides only in the flesh. Not in the soul. If we were totally depraved our soul would also be a sin nature and no one could be saved.

For I know that in me nothing good dwells (that is, in my flesh)
for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I
do not find. Romans 7:18

The will to do what is right is found in the soul. But its the dominating sin nature in the flesh
that prevents the soul from doing what is right.

Now if one could separate the soul from its dominating sinful flesh?

That soul separated from the sin nature would be made free to choose and do rightly.
And, that is exactly what grace changes in the believer.
For grace takes our weaknesses caused by the flesh and allows the soul to do what is right.

Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me,
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s
power may rest on me." 2 Corinthians 12:8-9​


Grace gives the soul the enabling power to perform what it knows is right.
That is why we must be saved by grace!

The whole process of God's drawing a soul will be by grace.
For grace shuts down the sin nature, so the soul can decide
what it wants to accept as God draws a soul to the completion
of being given faith in Christ.

Grace does not guarantee one will choose for the good. It only frees up a soul
to be able to be free of the sin nature to choose.

An evil soul will be free to reject God's drawing.
Evil does not need a sin nature to do wrong.

That is why we need to understand the difference between sin and evil.
They are not the same thing.

grace and peace ...................
 
Ummm … King Saul was talking to a demon. Are we taking the words of demons for “God’s truth”? If so, then Satan says if we sin, we will be like God, knowing good and evil.
Samuel was a demon?

God interrupted the witch's usual ritual which is why she panicked and shrieked out.


When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out (shrieked) with a loud voice.
And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”
 
I know John Calvin and Jacob Arminius held different beliefs … all I was saying is “Prevenient Grace” is a concept introduced by John Wesley in the 18th Century (LONG after both Calvin and Arminius).

No.

The concept was around long before the "term."

And it should be called Preceding Grace, as Prevenient is archaic now.
 
Both sides can be wrong....

Horsefeathers. There is a right side and a wrong side.

Either God can impart His Truth to people so that they have their doctrine straight or He cannot.

Since He can that means there is a right side and a wrong side.

If "both sides can be wrong" then we are all damned.
 
If we were totally depraved our soul would also be a sin nature and no one could be saved.
BINGO!
  • "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. - Ezekiel 36:26[NASB]
  • Jesus responded and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." - John 3:3 [NASB]
  • So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. - Romans 9:16 [NASB]
  • But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), - Ephesians 2:4-5 [NASB]
When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" And looking at them, Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." - Matthew 19:25-26 [NASB]
 
But. logically and scripturally, only one can be true. I'll side with "Let us reason together" over "Let us froth at the mouth" anytime.

Now if some of you folks ( not necessarily you dizerner ) want to do the Holy Ghost Hokey Pokey more power too ya. But I won't be joining in.

There is no "reasoning" from the Reformed, there is only unproven assertions being forcefully preached, assumptions couched in doublespeak and self-contradictory claims of a logical path to justified true belief that is paradoxical and impossible to establish.

I'm afraid you can't take the moral or logical "high ground" of somehow being above the problem of necessary presuppositions and bypassing a logical proof of claims while claiming to prove things logically—that's hypocritical self-righteous sophistry.

It's the Holy Ghost Pokey or the Hokey Pokey and there's no in between.
 
So the OP is why is Calvinism a bad thing.

First lets be clear. If Calvinism is a bad thing....that doesn't go to say Calvinists people aren't good people. Some of them or a lot of them might be very good.

But why isn't Calvinsim itself not good? It doesn't read the clock right. Let me explain. My wife told me something happened when she was a little girl. Her mother asked her what time is it but she forgot she's not old enough to understand how a clock works. So she came back and told her mother, "Mommy, it's 4, now it's 5....not it's 6!" What she was doing was looking at the second hand of the clock." Theologians spiritually speaking do this all the time. As it comes to Calvinism they look at say the subject of sovereignty.

They BOLDLY assert God is sovereign. But that doesn't mean one is reading the clock right when they run off and make certain assertions. The other major hands on the clock, provide what's necessary to give a proper reading of the truth. Sovereignty is a part of the process as a second hand is the clock but don't make it the governing principal and take that to an extreme. The other hands of the clock bring the balance at how a subject like sovereignty is to be considered.
 
No.

The concept was around long before the "term."

And it should be called Preceding Grace, as Prevenient is archaic now.
There is an element of REVISIONIST HISTORY in that remark. It appears to deny the contribution of men that have evolved THEOLOGICAL lines of thought. Some of my fellow Baptists are guilty of the same thing when they attempt to trace the "origins" of the Baptist Church" back to the Apostles and deny the Reformation and the second wave that built upon the ideas of rejecting "Traditions" and embracing "Sola Scriptura" (a concept alien in the first centuries).

John Wesley built modern understanding of "Preceding Grace" upon the foundation of earlier understandings of HOW God distributed GRACE to men. If you explained YOUR view of "Prevenient/Preceding Grace" to Jacob Arminius ... his jaw would have dropped.
 
There is an element of REVISIONIST HISTORY in that remark. It appears to deny the contribution of me that have evolved THEOLOGICAL lines of thought. Some of my fellow Baptists are guilty of the same thing when they attempt to trace the "origins" of the Baptist Church" back to the Apostles and deny the Reformation and the second wave that built upon the ideas of rejecting "Traditions" and embracing "Sola Scriptura" (a concept alien in the first centuries).

John Wesley built modern understanding of "Preceding Grace" upon the foundation of earlier understandings of HOW God distributed GRACE to men. If you explained YOUR view of "Prevenient/Preceding Grace" to Jacob Arminius ... his jaw would have dropped.
You make some good points with church history which we must never leave out of the conversation. My thesis paper I wrote had to do with just that regarding PSA. See here you might appreciate the research.

 
John Wesley built modern understanding of "Preceding Grace" upon the foundation of earlier understandings of HOW God distributed GRACE to men. If you explained YOUR view of "Prevenient/Preceding Grace" to Jacob Arminius ... his jaw would have dropped.

Absolutely 100% false, I encourage you to study it a bit more.


VII. In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, "Without me ye can do nothing." St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: "Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing." That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man.

VIII. The mind of man, in this state, is dark, destitute of the saving knowledge of God, and, according to the Apostle, incapable of those things which belong to the Spirit of God. For "the animal man has no perception of the things of the Spirit of God;" (1 Cor. ii. 14) in which passage man is called "animal," not from the animal body, but from anima, the soul itself, which is the most noble part of man, but which is so encompassed about with the clouds of ignorance, as to be distinguished by the epithets of "vain" and "foolish;" and men themselves, thus darkened in their minds, are denominated "mad" or foolish, "fools," and even "darkness" itself. (Rom. i. 21, 22; Ephes. iv. 17, 18; Tit. iii. 3; Ephes. v. 8.) This is true, not only when, from the truth of the law which has in some measure been inscribed on the mind, it is preparing to form conclusions by the understanding; but likewise when, by simple apprehension, it would receive the truth of the gospel externally offered to it. For the human mind judges that to be "foolishness" which is the most excellent "wisdom" of God. (1 Cor. i. 18, 24.) On this account, what is here said must be understood not only of practical understanding and the judgment of particular approbation, but also of theoretical understanding and the judgment of general estimation.

IX. To the darkness of the mind succeeds the perverseness of the affections and of the heart, according to which it hates and has an aversion to that which is truly good and pleasing to God; but it loves and pursues what is evil. The Apostle was unable to afford a more luminous description of this perverseness, than he has given in the following words: "The carnal mind is enmity against God. For it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then, they that are in the flesh cannot please God." (Rom. viii. 7.) For this reason, the human heart itself is very often called deceitful and perverse, uncircumcised, hard and stony." (Jer. xiii. 10; xvii, 9; Ezek. xxxvi. 26.) Its imagination is said to be "only evil from his very youth;" (Gen. vi. 5; viii, 21) and "out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries," &c. (Matt. xv. 19.)

X. Exactly correspondent to this darkness of the mind, and perverseness of the heart, is the utter weakness of all the powers to perform that which is truly good, and to omit the perpetration of that which is evil, in a due mode and from a due end and cause. The subjoined sayings of Christ serve to describe this impotence. "A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit." (Matt. vii. 18.) "How can ye, being evil, speak good things?" (xii, 34.) The following relates to the good which is properly prescribed in the gospel: "No man can come to me, except the Father draw him." (John vi. 44.) As do likewise the following words of the Apostle: "The carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be;" (Rom. viii. 7) therefore, that man over whom it has dominion, cannot perform what the law commands. The same Apostle says, "When we were in the flesh, the motions of sins wrought in us," or flourished energetically. (vii, 5.) To the same purpose are all those passages in which the man existing in this state is said to be under the power of sin and Satan, reduced to the condition of a slave, and "taken captive by the Devil." (Rom. vi. 20; 2 Tim. ii. 26.)

XI. To these let the consideration of the whole of the life of man who is placed under sin, be added, of which the Scriptures exhibit to us the most luminous descriptions; and it will be evident, that nothing can be spoken more truly concerning man in this state, than that he is altogether dead in sin. (Rom. iii. 10-19.) To these let the testimonies of Scripture be joined, in which are described the benefits of Christ, which are conferred by his Spirit on the human mind and will, and thus on the whole man. (1 Cor. vi. 9-11; Gal. v. 19-25; Ephes. ii. 2-7; iv, 17-20; Tit. iii. 3-7.) For, the blessings of which man has been deprived by sin, cannot be rendered more obviously apparent, than by the immense mass of benefits which accrue to believers through the Holy Spirit; when, in truth, nature is understood to be devoid of all that which, as the Scriptures testify, is performed in man and communicated by the operation of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, if "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty;" (2 Cor. iii. 17) and if those alone be free indeed whom the Son hath made free;" (John viii. 36) it follows, that our will is not free from the first fall; that is, it is not free to good, unless it be made free by the Son through his Spirit.

XII. But far different from this is the consideration of the free will of man, as constituted in the third state of Renewed Righteousness. For when a new light and knowledge of God and Christ, and of the Divine will, have been kindled in his mind; and when new affections, inclinations and motions agreeing with the law of God, have been excited in his heart, and new powers have been produced in him; it comes to pass, that, being liberated from the kingdom of darkness, and being now made "light in the Lord," (Ephes. v. 8,) he understands the true and saving good; that, after the hardness of his stony heart has been changed into the softness of flesh, and the law of God according to the covenant of grace has been inscribed on it, (Jer. 31, 32-35,) he loves and embraces that which is good, just, and holy; and that, being made capable in Christ, co-operating now with God, he prosecutes the good which he knows and loves, and he begins himself to perform it in deed. But this, whatever it may be of knowledge, holiness and power, is all begotten within him by the Holy Spirit; who is, on this account, called "the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, of counsel and might, of knowledge and the fear of Jehovah," (Isa. xi. 2,) "the Spirit of grace," (Zech. xii. 10,) "of faith," (2 Cor. iv. 13,) "the Spirit of adoption" into sons, (Rom. viii. 16,) and "the Spirit of holiness;" and to whom the acts of illumination, regeneration, renovation, and confirmation, are attributed in the Scriptures.
 
XIII. But two things must be here observed. The First that this work of regeneration and illumination is not completed in one moment; but that it is advanced and promoted, from time to time, by daily increase. For "our old man is crucified, that the body of sin might be destroyed," (Rom. vi. 6,) and "that the inward man may be renewed day by day." (2 Cor. iv. 16.) For this reason, in regenerate persons, as long as they inhabit these mortal bodies, "the flesh lusteth against the Spirit." (Gal. v. 17.) Hence it arises, that they can neither perform any good thing without great resistance and violent struggles, nor abstain from the commission of evil. Nay, it also happens, that, either through ignorance or infirmity, and sometimes through perverseness, they sin, as we may see in the cases of Moses, Aaron, Barnabas, Peter and David. Neither is such an occurrence only accidental; but, even in those who are the most perfect, the following Scriptures have their fulfillment: "In many things we all offend;" (James iii. 9) and "There is no man that sinneth not." (1 Kings viii. 46.)

XIV. The Second thing to be observed is, that as the very first commencement of every good thing, so likewise the progress, continuance and confirmation, nay, even the perseverance in good, are not from ourselves, but from God through the Holy Spirit. For "he who hath begun a good work in you, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ;" (Phil. i. 6) and "we are kept by the power of God through faith." (1 Pet. i. 5.) "The God of all grace makes us perfect, stablishes, strengthens and settles us." (i, 10.) But if it happens that persons fall into sin who have been born again, they neither repent nor rise again unless they be raised up again by God through the power of his Spirit, and be renewed to repentance. This is proved in the most satisfactory manner, by the example of David and of Peter. "Every good and perfect gift, therefore, is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights," (James i. 17,) by whose power the dead are animated that they may live, the fallen are raised up that they may recover themselves, the blind are illuminated that they may see, the unwilling are incited that they may become willing, the weak are confirmed that they may stand, the willing are assisted that they may work and may co-operate with God. "To whom be praise and glory in the church, by Christ Jesus, throughout all ages, world without end. Amen!" "Subsequent or following grace does indeed assist the good purpose of man; but this good purpose would have no existence unless through preceding or preventing grace. And though the desire of man, which is called good, be assisted by grace when it begins to be; yet it does not begin without grace, but is inspired by Him, concerning whom the Apostle writes thus, thanks be to God, who put the same earnest care into the heart of Titus for you. If God incites any one to have ‘an earnest care’ for others, He will ‘put it into the heart’ of some other person to have ‘an earnest care’ for him." Augustinus, Contra. 2 Epist. Pelag. l. 2. c. 9.

"What then, you ask, does free will do? I reply with brevity, it saves. Take away FREE WILL, and nothing will be left to be saved. Take away GRACE, and nothing will be left as the source of salvation. This work [of salvation] cannot be effected without two parties—one, from whom it may come: the other, to whom or in whom it may be wrought. God is the author of salvation. Free will is only capable of being saved. No one, except God, is able to bestow salvation; and nothing, except free will, is capable of receiving it.

Here are some more links to research:

 
Here are some more links to research:

ditto
 
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