Why Calvinism is a bad thing.

[Aeliana]

So you were born again before you believed . That’s the complete opposite of what Jesus and the Apostles taught . And your will has everything to do with faith .

Whenever we make a decision, we want that decision to be ours. Is it possible to choose something against our will? What function does our free will have in believing the gospel? The short answer is... we have to be willing to believe and that's where our faith comes in play.

5 But to one who, not working [by the Law], trusts (believes fully) in Him Who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness (the standing acceptable to God). Ro 4:5.

Human faith is essential in order for any of us to be saved. Faith is highlighted as the means by which one becomes right with God instead of by “works of law,” or works. Faith receives what God gives to us instead of laboring to give something to God. Since faith is fundamentally receptive, it Goes along with grace. Grace is God’s powerful work in our lives. In what work of God does faith place its trust? Faith believes that “God justifies the ungodly” Rom 4:5. Or, to put it another way, faith believes in a God who forgives our sins on the basis of Christ’s death. God works for us by forgiving sin, and we enjoy that forgiveness by believing that God really forgives our sins for Christ’s sake.

 

[civic]

Don't be ridiculous. Where do you even get the idea that God regenerating man means He believes for him? Where or where has reason and logic flown off to?

Try this. I heard. I believed what I heard. My will has nothing to do with it.

Whenever we make a decision, we want that decision to be ours. Is it possible to choose something against our will? What function does our free will have in believing the gospel? The short answer is... we have to be willing to believe and that's where our faith comes in play.

5 But to one who, not working [by the Law], trusts (believes fully) in Him Who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness (the standing acceptable to God). Ro 4:5.

Human faith is essential in order for any of us to be saved. Faith is highlighted as the means by which one becomes right with God instead of by “works of law,” or works. Faith receives what God gives to us instead of laboring to give something to God. Since faith is fundamentally receptive, it Goes along with grace. Grace is God’s powerful work in our lives. In what work of God does faith place its trust? Faith believes that “God justifies the ungodly” Rom 4:5. Or, to put it another way, faith believes in a God who forgives our sins on the basis of Christ’s death. God works for us by forgiving sin, and we enjoy that forgiveness by believing that God really forgives our sins for Christ’s sake.

Which results in salvation from the new birth as the result of salvific faith in the gospel .

 

[praise_yeshua]

How about "In the beginning God---". Everything that follows is God down to man, not man up to God. You ask for proof texts and there is no such thing. No scripture, no word, within the Bible is separated from the whole and the whole is God. Every theology, doctrine or belief, in order to be accurate must stem from what God says about Himself. Who He says He is and doing what He says He is doing, for the purpose that He gives.

You're projecting your own reflection upon Divinity. I don't say that with any animosity whatsoever. We ALL do this from time to time in our theology. You have a flawed sense of "Providence" as it has been taught you. You believe that if God does not originate every significant causal event.... that God will cease to be God. I'm going to stop right here for a moment. Lets deal with this.

I've spent significant time in my like considering the Character of God. It is what some you do not understand about @civic position. What we teach in our theologies MUST reflect the very character of God. The very nature of what the "goodness" of God means. He is Altogether lovely brother. All together lovely... brother. Your position presents a marred and distorted view of the very nature of God.

Can you explain the reason that you believe your position is essential to Divinity?

 

[civic]

I had to be born in Christ, born again, in order to believe.

How is it the opposite of what Jesus and the apostles taught?

You have placed the cart before the horse and have the order backwards .

Notice what comes first in scripture - the order of how one becomes saved.

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ,regeneration, new life, born again etc....
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John below the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.


Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life, regeneration, born again

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

I had to be born in Christ, born again, in order to believe.

How shall you call on Him that you have not believed? How shall you believe without a preacher. You have nothing to express faith in without the Gospel. Nothing. Everything starts with the Gospel. What do you have that you have not received from another?

 

[Aeliana]

What must I do to be saved? The Bible answers this question for us. "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:30

Verses on how to be saved

 

[civic]

How shall you call on Him that you have not believed? How shall you believe with a preacher. You have nothing to express faith in without the Gospel. Nothing. Everything starts with the Gospel. What do you have that you have not received from another?

Exactly as Peter also confirms we are born again after believing the gospel .

1 Peter 1-
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you

And James

James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.

 

[Arial]

How shall you call on Him that you have not believed? How shall you believe without a preacher. You have nothing to express faith in without the Gospel. Nothing. Everything starts with the Gospel. What do you have that you have not received from another?

Of course one has to hear the gospel before they can believe it!!!! Big duh. And if they do believe it when they hear it they believe it. Not choose it or choose to believe it.

Everything starts with God. Gen 1:1.

Do you actually think that believing and choosing are synonyms?

 

[Arial]

How shall you call on Him that you have not believed? How shall you believe without a preacher. You have nothing to express faith in without the Gospel. Nothing. Everything starts with the Gospel. What do you have that you have not received from another?

Of course one has to hear the gospel before they can believe it!!!! Big duh. And if they do believe it when they hear it they believe it. Not choose it or choose to believe it.

Everything starts with God. Gen 1:1.

Do you actually think that believing and choosing are synonyms?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Of course one has to hear the gospel before they can believe it!!!! Big duh. And if they do believe it when they hear it they believe it. Not choose it or choose to believe it.

If you must hear the Gospel, then why are you insisting God must regenerate you before you hear the Gospel. That statement is not found in the Scriptures. It is the Gospel that cuts a man's heart.

Where did you get that you must be regenerated before you hear the Gospel?

Everything starts with God. Gen 1:1.

Do you actually think that believing and choosing are synonyms?.

All things were good that God created. God did not create evil. Can you show me where God created evil in Genesis?

 

[Arial]

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ,regeneration, new life, born again etc....
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

1. If the repentance comes first then we have earned salvation and it is no longer of grace. It becomes something we must do in order to be saved. If we find ourselves repenting it is only because we believe what we heard. And if we do not find ourselves repenting we must not have believed what we heard. The first repentance is not believing, not trusting God. That is what it is all about---our failure to trust God and go our own way.
2. Then you have earned your new heart and it is no longer of grace.
3.The natural result of believing is repenting for what was done when you didn't believe. It is as natural as gravity.

A father tell his child to not touch the stove because it will burn him. The child doesn't believe his father and touches the stove. Ouch! Now he believes his father and is mighty sorry he didn't and so touched the stove.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.

The fact that there is an order to sentences found in the Bible does not mean it is the order in which something happens. If that scripture were to promote what you use it to promote one would expect it to read. "But these are written that you choose to believe that Jesus is the Christ and that by choosing to believe you may have life in His name." It doesn't read that way though does it. Just as no one can believe the gospel without hearing it, no one knows what brings eternal life, unless the giver of life tell us. So He tells us. Eternal life is found in believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God---which in and of itself has much inclusive information given in different places as to His person and work and what it means that He is the Messiah and that He is the Son of God. Never, not once, in the gospels, Acts or the Epistles is any form of the word choose attached to the call to repentance or belief. Never.

Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

"Believe", "declare", "believe in your heart" "Believe", "profess". "Believes". "Calls". There is a word or words blaringly absent in that passage. What is it"

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

That is not even giving the order of salvation. Repentance is life. It is simply saying that the Gentiles are being saved by God as well as Jews. It certainly is not telling them to repent first as the Gentiles as a whole did not have God and knew nothing of Him so would not even know what repentance was.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

It is amazing how much like a Unitarian I encountered you argue. You pull out all the same proof texts and say the same thing about them. That is not giving a chronological order of salvation which would be alien to the context. Indeed one has to hear before one can believe, and when (because He is writing to those who have believed) you believed, in other words in believing it marks one as sealed in Christ forever, by the Holy Spirit and He is the evidence of that sealing.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life, regeneration, born again

1. being born from above (John 3)
2.hearing the gospel
3. believing the gospel (same thing as receiving it,)
The order you give has man being the reason for his new birth. All those good things he did.

 

[Arial]

You're projecting your own reflection upon Divinity.

That doesn't even make any sense.

I've spent significant time in my like considering the Character of God. It is what some you do not understand about @civic position. What we teach in our theologies MUST reflect the very character of God. The very nature of what the "goodness" of God means. He is Altogether lovely brother. All together lovely... brother. Your position presents a marred and distorted view of the very nature of God.

Can you explain the reason that you believe your position is essential to Divinity?

To say that my position presents a marred and distorted view of the very nature of God is not within the realm of the knowledge you have of me to say. And basically all it means is that it is different than yours which implies that yours is right and mine is not. My idea of God is not limited to the things that I like or understand but on what He says about Himself.

So why don't you give me your explanation of some of the things we see God commanding and doing in the OT for instance, that from a human perspective would one would be hard pressed to call good. Keep in mind this is the same God that is in the NT who says He is love and who is love. Lets have it.

 

[Eleazar]

I like that gospel song "I have decided to follow Jesus" To me it's a decision or a choice based on belief and faith in Jesus. If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth you will be saved, Hallelujah, Thank you Jesus.

1. I have decided to follow Jesus;
I have decided to follow Jesus;
I have decided to follow Jesus;
no turning back, no turning back.

2. Though none go with me, I still will follow;
though none go with me, I still will follow;
though none go with me, I still will follow;
no turning back, no turning back.

3. The world behind me, the cross before me;
the world behind me, the cross before me,
the world behind me, the cross before me;
no turning back, no turning back.

 

[Arial]

Which results in salvation from the new birth as the result of salvific faith in the gospel .

That faith that places its trust in Jesus and His work is not in us. Even the Greek word translated faith in the Eph passage has the connotation of arriving in us from something greater than us. If we had that kind of faith obtainable with in our fallen nature we would not need Christ. We could potentially save ourselves. It is a particular faith, in a particular thing and scripture says God gives it to us. When He gives it to us BY GRACE, then it is ours. The new birth is salvation. Born in Christ as opposed to born in Adam. Faith is a result of the new birth not what produces the new birth.

 

[Eleazar]

By placing our faith in Jesus we are redeemed—purchased out of slavery; and justified—declared righteous before God. Faith is the arm that reaches out to receive the saving grace of God.

We are made right in God’s sight when we trust in Jesus Christ “place our faith in him” to take away our sins…God in his gracious kindness (grace) declares us not guilty.”

20 For no person will be justified (made righteous, acquitted, and judged acceptable) in His sight by observing the works prescribed by the Law. For [the real function of] the Law is to make men recognize and be conscious of sin [not mere perception, but an acquaintance with sin which works toward repentance, faith, and holy character].
21 But now the righteousness of God has been revealed independently and altogether apart from the Law, although actually it is attested by the Law and the Prophets,
22 Namely, the righteousness of God which comes by believing with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [And it is meant] for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
23 Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives.
24 [All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus. Romans 3:20–24

So as I said, by placing our faith in Jesus we are redeemed—purchased out of slavery; and justified—declared righteous before God.

 

[atpollard]

If you must hear the Gospel, then why are you insisting God must regenerate you before you hear the Gospel. That statement is not found in the Scriptures. It is the Gospel that cuts a man's heart.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 [NASB20]
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That doesn't even make any sense.

Pride reflects our desires into our theology. It is our reflection we see in Divinity. Not God Himself.

To say that my position presents a marred and distorted view of the very nature of God is not within the realm of the knowledge you have of me to say.

Sure it is. I can read your words. I know what you believe. Do you really believe you're that different than any other Calvinist out there? You're repeating what you've heard. I've heard the same things.

And basically all it means is that it is different than yours which implies that yours is right and mine is not. My idea of God is not limited to the things that I like or understand but on what He says about Himself.

Then defend your claims.

So why don't you give me your explanation of some of the things we see God commanding and doing in the OT for instance, that from a human perspective would one would be hard pressed to call good. Keep in mind this is the same God that is in the NT who says He is love and who is love. Lets have it.

Why don't you provide a reference to God doing evil things. If you really believe what you claim, then you shouldn't be afraid to charge God with evil.

 

[civic]

Pride reflects our desires into our theology. It is our reflection we see in Divinity. Not God Himself.



Sure it is. I can read your words. I know what you believe. Do you really believe you're that different than any other Calvinist out there? You're repeating what you've heard. I've heard the same things.



The defend your claims.



Why don't you provide a reference to God doing evil things. If you really believe what you claim, then you shouldn't be afraid to charge God with evil.

I’ve noticed the lack of scripture to support the claims.

 

[praise_yeshua]

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 [NASB20]
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

There is nothing in this reference that teaches God must regenerate you before you can "hear" the Gospel.

It is an oxymoron the way you claim one must hear the Gospel before believing and then claim you can't hear the Gospel until you believe.

 

[Eleazar]

SInce when does faith itself have anything to do with the will? Ever. Obedience has to do with the will. Faith does not. God says it is a gift He gives. Perhaps your have an idea of faith that does not reach a depth of what it really is and always has been. Gotta go.

I just did a study on Mustard Seed Faith that was very interesting. This part really caught my attention.

14 And when they approached the multitude, a man came up to Him, kneeling before Him and saying,
15 Lord, do pity and have mercy on my son, for he has epilepsy (is moonstruck) and he suffers terribly; for frequently he falls into the fire and many times into the water.
16 And I brought him to Your disciples, and they were not able to cure him.
17 And Jesus answered, O you unbelieving (warped, wayward, rebellious) and thoroughly perverse generation! How long am I to remain with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him here to Me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him, and the boy was cured instantly.
19 Then the disciples came to Jesus and asked privately, Why could we not drive it out?
20 He said to them, Because of the littleness of your faith [that is, your lack of firmly relying trust]. For truly I say to you, if you have faith [that is living] like a grain of mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, Move from here to yonder place, and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
Mt 17:14–20.

So these disciples had a will to cast out the demon from that man's son but apparently God hadn't given them enough faith. They only had a little faith. See what I'm saying? If they're following and being taught by Jesus as disciples they should have a full measure of faith right? But apparently that's not the case because Jesus is saying IF you have faith.

So if your order of salvation is correct it seems to me God would give us a full measure of faith in order to believe in him and be saved.