Why Calvinism is a bad thing.

We can discuss the qualities of either teaching and determine the truth. If you do this, I'm certain you will see that salvation both. Not either or.

Every heard of a false dichotomy?
Technically, it would be a PARADOX rather than a false Dichotomy.
Jesus being FULLY MAN and FULLY God is a Paradox ... logically, he cannot be both, but God says that He is.

A false DICHOTOMY is when I say "your pet must be a Dog or a Cat". (Because your pet could be a Fish)
If I say "Your pet can be a dog or not a dog" ... That is a valid dichotomy. No pet can be both "a dog" and "not a dog" at the same time.

Only 100% is "100%" ... anything else is "not 100%". There is no "100% and not 100% at the same time".
 
Do you read what you write? Try it. Out loud.

Maybe this makes sense to you but it's a mystery to the rest of us mortals.

No Divinity required. Just common sense and an understanding of English.

You hold an exclusively Monogerism view because you falsely attribute merit to beggars who ask God to save them.

Logic is logic. Math is math.

There is a difference between playing with baby building blocks and using complex math to construct a spaceship.

The obvious is generally simple ( as well as correct ) as shown by Occam's Razor. So...I think you have been staring at the back of your own head for too long.

No. Just looking at hyperCalvinism.
 
Technically, it would be a PARADOX rather than a false Dichotomy.

You're appealing to ambiguity to justify your theological decision . It is still a false Dichotomy. There are more choices to be considered than assuming your own choice is true.

Jesus being FULLY MAN and FULLY God is a Paradox ... logically, he cannot be both, but God says that He is.

Conflating. However, you seem to be making my point for me. It is more complex an issue than simply a choice between two options.

A false DICHOTOMY is when I say "your pet must be a Dog or a Cat". (Because your pet could be a Fish)
If I say "Your pet can be a dog or not a dog" ... That is a valid dichotomy. No pet can be both "a dog" and "not a dog" at the same time.

Only 100% is "100%" ... anything else is "not 100%". There is no "100% and not 100% at the same time"..

You are describing False Equivalence......
 
You are describing False Equivalence......
Only 100% is "100%" ... anything else is "not 100%". There is no "100% and not 100% at the same time".

This is cold hard "logic" (A or NOT A) ... there is no possible middle ground.
Dance around it all you want, but MONERGISM (100% God) or NOT MONERGISM (not 100% God)[aka "SYNERGISM", since there are no OTHER Gods].
 
Only 100% is "100%" ... anything else is "not 100%". There is no "100% and not 100% at the same time".

This is cold hard "logic" (A or NOT A) ... there is no possible middle ground.
Dance around it all you want, but MONERGISM (100% God) or NOT MONERGISM (not 100% God)[aka "SYNERGISM", since there are no OTHER Gods].
No God is responsible for doing the saving, man is responsible for doing the believing. No one is saved apart from faith and no one is saved apart from Gods grace in drawing men to Himself.
 
No God is responsible for doing the saving, man is responsible for doing the believing. No one is saved apart from faith and no one is saved apart from Gods grace in drawing men to Himself.
Who is doing the believing?

  • [2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB20] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
  • [Ephesians 2:1-3 NASB20] 1 And you were dead in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.
  • [Romans 1:21 NASB20] 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened.
  • [Romans 3:11 NASB20] 11 THERE IS NO ONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NO ONE WHO SEEKS OUT GOD;
  • [John 3:3 NASB20] 3 Jesus responded and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Is it these ...
  • blind
  • unbelieving
  • dead
  • children of wrath
  • futile in reasoning
  • darkened of heart
  • NON UNDERSTANDING
  • NOT SEEKING
... who have somehow magically given birth to themselves?
Are THESE the people "believing" for God to save them in their own "slave to sin" will?


God DRAWS. [John 6:44]
God SAVES. [Ephesians 2:8-9]
God PRESERVES. [Philippians 2:13]

SOLI DEO GLORIA! [Isaiah 42:8,Isaiah 48:11]​

 
That is an oxymoron. Monergistic synergism.

I never made that claim. I said it was both. I did not make one subservient to the other.

God saves. Beggars beg. Beggers begging for God to help them isn't taking "power" away from God. It is simply recognizing that they can't help themselves.

This entire life teaches us about our own weaknesses. It takes fools to ignore the obvious things around us that continually reflect our weakness. That is why man is without excuse.

hyperCalvinism gives men excuses.
 
Only 100% is "100%" ... anything else is "not 100%". There is no "100% and not 100% at the same time".

Childish math. You recognized the Hypostatic Union's complexity earlier where you have 100 percent God and 100 percent man and called it a paradox. Now you refuse to recognize the possibility of such a complexity. Your position is self defeating.

This is cold hard "logic" (A or NOT A) ... there is no possible middle ground.
Dance around it all you want, but MONERGISM (100% God) or NOT MONERGISM (not 100% God)[aka "SYNERGISM", since there are no OTHER Gods].

False Dichotomy. Jesus is 100 percent God and 100 percent man. Thanks for the analogy. I appreciate it. Just make sure you apply it elsewhere.

Saving is 100 percent God's power. Man can please God through faith. Faith relies upon the work of another.... Not their OWN work.......

Salvation has qualities taught in Monergism and Synergism.

No need to keep playing with your straw legos. Move on up to using real components.
 
Who is doing the believing?

  • [2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB20] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
  • [Ephesians 2:1-3 NASB20] 1 And you were dead in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.
  • [Romans 1:21 NASB20] 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened.
  • [Romans 3:11 NASB20] 11 THERE IS NO ONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NO ONE WHO SEEKS OUT GOD;
  • [John 3:3 NASB20] 3 Jesus responded and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Is it these ...
  • blind
  • unbelieving
  • dead
  • children of wrath
  • futile in reasoning
  • darkened of heart
  • NON UNDERSTANDING
  • NOT SEEKING
... who have somehow magically given birth to themselves?
Are THESE the people "believing" for God to save them in their own "slave to sin" will?


God DRAWS. [John 6:44]
God SAVES. [Ephesians 2:8-9]
God PRESERVES. [Philippians 2:13]

SOLI DEO GLORIA! [Isaiah 42:8,Isaiah 48:11]​



The spiritually dead misnomer taught by Calvinists.


Adam who was “spiritually “dead hid from God in the garden and was able to communicate with God and understand Him. In the day you eat you shall surely die. So adam sinned and was spiritually dead and yet could communicate with God and understand God. “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” (Genesis 3:10)
Luke 16:27-31 -“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”


Above we see that Jesus declared the physical dead and spiritual dead can respond to spiritual things. The dead spiritual/physical dead man is pleading for his own brother’s life.

Jesus declares in John 5:25, “An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. Here Jesus says the spiritually dead can and will hear him
In Mark 2:17 Jesus said, “"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." The sick/spiritually dead can hear and understand Jesus- the sinner who is dead in their sins can understand.
In Romans 1 we read of the spiritually dead that they can perceive God and that Gods handiwork is self-evident to them and that the things of God are clearly seen by them so that they are without excuse.

Romans 1:20- For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”
 
I never made that claim. I said it was both. I did not make one subservient to the other.
Something can't be both monergistic and synergistic at the same time. It has nothing to do with subservience.
God saves. Beggars beg. Beggers begging for God to help them isn't taking "power" away from God. It is simply recognizing that they can't help themselves.
Beggars begging doesn't save anyone. Believing in the person and work of Jesus is what saves.
This entire life teaches us about our own weaknesses. It takes fools to ignore the obvious things around us that continually reflect our weakness. That is why man is without excuse.

hyperCalvinism gives men excuses.
Knowing of our weaknesses does not draw us to God.

What do you mean by hyper-Calvinism? How does it give men excuses?
 
Something can't be both monergistic and synergistic at the same time. It has nothing to do with subservience.

I explained it. I said there are qualities in both that are true.

Beggars begging doesn't save anyone. Believing in the person and work of Jesus is what saves.

Not true.

Joh 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

Knowing of our weaknesses does not draw us to God.

Well. Not entirely. Thank God we have the Gospel. Weakness causes us to look for better.

Every wondered why sinners keep trying to help themselves? They know they're flawed and going to die. Everyone knows it. They don't like to deal with it. They make excuses for it but REALTY.... eventually establishes the Truth.


What do you mean by hyper-Calvinism? How does it give men excuses?

hyperCalvinism does not believe in the accurate teaching of secondary cause. They prefer to "triumphant" that God causes everything. Which isn't true.
 
I explained it. I said there are qualities in both that are true.
That depends on what you are talking about and regarding synergism a person being saved is all of God. Their believing is a result of being born again. "By grace you have been saved, through faith, and that is a gift of God lest anyone should boast."
Not true.

Joh 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
I fail to see how that refutes my statement that beggars begging save no one.
Well. Not entirely. Thank God we have the Gospel. Weakness causes us to look for better.

Every wondered why sinners keep trying to help themselves? They know they're flawed and going to die. Everyone knows it. They don't like to deal with it. They make excuses for it but REALTY.... eventually establishes the Truth.
Being better won't remove sins and I don't think anyone thinks it will.

Right. Exactly. Sinners (who do not think of their wrongs as sins against God anyway) try to make themselves better. And no one thinks they can be so good that they won't die. I can't find the logic in your reasoning.
hyperCalvinism does not believe in the accurate teaching of secondary cause. They prefer to "triumphant" that God causes everything. Which isn't true.

Calvinism teaches second causes. It teaches that God governs everything. So if there really is such a thing as hyper-Calvinism it isn't Calvinism at all.
 
The spiritually dead misnomer taught by Calvinists.
Sigh, one word in all that scripture trips you up. Here, let me fix that for you:

Who is doing the believing?
  • [2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB20] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
  • [Ephesians 2:2-3 NASB20] 2 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.
  • [Romans 1:21 NASB20] 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened.
  • [Romans 3:11 NASB20] 11 THERE IS NO ONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NO ONE WHO SEEKS OUT GOD;
  • [John 3:3 NASB20] 3 Jesus responded and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Is it these ...
  • [NOT DEAD, forget about dead, don’t give it another thought, pretend the word NEVER appears in any scripture]
  • blind
  • unbelieving
  • children of wrath
  • futile in reasoning
  • darkened of heart
  • NON UNDERSTANDING
  • NOT SEEKING
... who have somehow magically given birth to themselves?
Are THESE the people "believing" for God to save them in their own "slave to sin" will?

Can you now see that …
God ALONE must DRAW. [John 6:44]
God ALONE must SAVE. [Ephesians 2:8-9]
God ALONE must PRESERVE. [Philippians 2:13]


Can you see how utterly INCAPABLE man is?
Can you see how utterly CAPABLE God MUST BE?
 
A soul is incapable and helpless if she
listens to this world, and the Self that
oppresses her...

God has a job for His souls and
He wants us to do that job....
and not bury our 'talents'

If a soul is in Him in her proper position
listening to Him then she can do a lot
and is not incapable...

we are helpless because of the fall
and because of adam and being
imprisoned by adam and his crimes -
not because God wants us
that way or made us that way in eden
before the fall... and before coming to
this corrupt situation on this earth.

Its true some were never His
and are of a different father - literally -
and cannot hear
Him, and do not care about Him...
those are sons of ammon, esau, etc.
never knew Him,
did not come from Him...
are foreign.

esau wants God's sons to
be helpless and twists scripture...
and on purpose makes us helpless
and keeps us imprisoned


but soon when we meet Christ on
the clouds we will be free....
and no more will His souls
render to caesar.
 
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That depends on what you are talking about and regarding synergism a person being saved is all of God. Their believing is a result of being born again.

A claim without supporting evidence. You are wrong.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

I believe the Scriptures. Not what you've been told.

"By grace you have been saved, through faith, and that is a gift of God lest anyone should boast."

Beggars rely on Grace. Does a Beggar boast? He has no right to boast.

I fail to see how that refutes my statement that beggars begging save no one.

I never said begging saves anyone. It is God that saves. There is no power in begging. You're conflating. That is what hyperCalvinists do. Beggars ask God to save them. That "begging" is a causal event wherein God saves the sinners. Sinners can't save themselves.

Being better won't remove sins and I don't think anyone thinks it will.

Nor do I. I have plain told you that human beings ALL...EVERYONE OF THEM.... seek to do things that will make them better off. Not morally better.

Right. Exactly. Sinners (who do not think of their wrongs as sins against God anyway) try to make themselves better. And no one thinks they can be so good that they won't die. I can't find the logic in your reasoning..

Man seeks immortality. He desires to live and not die. Natural men seek to live and not die. It is a result of watching himself grow weaker and frail as he ages and sees everything else around him die. That is NATURAL. Not spiritual. NATURAL. You are conflating.

Calvinism teaches second causes. It teaches that God governs everything. So if there really is such a thing as hyper-Calvinism it isn't Calvinism at all...

A hyperCalvinist claims he is the "real" Calvinist. All you all are doing is competing to claim a name that doesn't add up to nothing.
 
A hyperCalvinist claims he is the "real" Calvinist. All you all are doing is competing to claim a name that doesn't add up to nothing.
That is dishonest debate.
If I claimed there was no difference between “Free Will” and Pelagianism (the belief than men were not tainted by Adam’s sin and are capable of living sinless lives without the need of a Savior), you would be right to object. To equate the Doctrines of Grace (aka. TULIP or Calvinism) with the heretical teaching called “hyper-Calvinism” (God is the active cause of men’s sin and compels both sinners and saints to perform their respective actions) is equally false and deserving of both objection and condemnation.

@civic … no, that post was not deserving of a “thumbs up”. False accusations are not praiseworthy.
 
That is dishonest debate.
If I claimed there was no difference between “Free Will” and Pelagianism (the belief than men were not tainted by Adam’s sin and are capable of living sinless lives without the need of a Savior), you would be right to object. To equate the Doctrines of Grace (aka. TULIP or Calvinism) with the heretical teaching called “hyper-Calvinism” (God is the active cause of men’s sin and compels both sinners and saints to perform their respective actions) is equally false and deserving of both objection and condemnation.

@civic … no, that post was not deserving of a “thumbs up”. False accusations are not praiseworthy.
False characterization on your part.
It is my experience that there are far more hyperCalvinists now dictating the modern direction of Calvinism than ever before.

I just watched White talking about how is glad that he doesn't have to worry about making mistakes preaching the Gospel because of the hyperCalvinist view of Election. We can debate the differences. I usually avoid these types of"contests" because they generally go nowhere.
 
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