Why Calvinism is a bad thing.

[atpollard]

False characterization on your part.
It is my experience that there are far more hyperCalvinists now dictating the modern direction of Calvinism than ever before.

I just watched White talking about how is glad that he doesn't have to worry about making mistakes preaching the Gospel because of the hyperCalvinist view of Election. We can debate the differences. I usually avoid these types of"contests" because they generally go nowhere.

Then you should repent of your Pelagianism, since most who advocate for "free will" act like they are saving themselves.

 

[Arial]

A claim without supporting evidence. You are wrong.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

I believe the Scriptures. Not what you've been told.



Beggars rely on Grace. Does a Beggar boast? He has no right to boast.



I never said begging saves anyone. It is God that saves. There is no power in begging. You're conflating. That is what hyperCalvinists do. Beggars ask God to save them. That "begging" is a causal event wherein God saves the sinners. Sinners can't save themselves.



Nor do I. I have plain told you that human beings ALL...EVERYONE OF THEM.... seek to do things that will make them better off. Not morally better.



Man seeks immortality. He desires to live and not die. Natural men seek to live and not die. It is a result of watching himself grow weaker and frail as he ages and sees everything else around him die. That is NATURAL. Not spiritual. NATURAL. You are conflating.



A hyperCalvinist claims he is the "real" Calvinist. All you all are doing is competing to claim a name that doesn't add up to nothing.

All that is too unfocused and irrelevant in my opinion, to continue with. It is a go nowhere but into the land of bickering presentation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Then you should repent of your Pelagianism, since most who advocate for "free will" act like they are saving themselves.

That is a lie. I don't believe in Pelagianism. That is the favorite lie of hyperCalvinist when they can't defend their position.

I couldn't save myself. Beggars have no power. It is a fool who refuses to grovel at the feet of Jesus. Why do you have such an aversion to begging?

 

[praise_yeshua]

All that is too unfocused and irrelevant in my opinion, to continue with. It is a go nowhere but into the land of bickering presentation.

If you really believe this, then pick a spot and "focus". Defend your beliefs.

 

[civic]

Then you should repent of your Pelagianism, since most who advocate for "free will" act like they are saving themselves.

Poisoning the well. Free will is everywhere in Scripture- the ability to choose God freely or reject God and the gospel.

Reformed regeneration is a forced/coerced and unbiblcal doctrine where god saves/regenerates a lost person who hated God is an enemy of God who has no desire for God so God regenerated them, saved them so that they can believe in Him and love Him against their free will and choice to do so.

 

[civic]

Man's ability to make choices of one thing or another is everywhere in the Bible. That man's man's will is so unencumbered and not imprisoned by his desire for what is sinful that he can override that and will choose the gospel is not. Quite the opposite is what we find throughout scripture. Hence we have the declaration of blind eyes and deaf ears---unless they are opened by God. Even in the natural we see in Jesus that only God can do that. Hence we have the Law in the Sinai covenant. "Do this and--- do that and----."

You see salvation unto eternal life is not about obeying unto eternal life. It is about believing unto eternal life.

Again, an extremely misstated doctrine of Reformed theology, which is very surprising from someone who claims to have believed and taught it for four decades. You blatantly add to the doctrine what is not there at all but is only you feelings about it and that you desire for all to have that same understanding so they will not believe it.

The misstatement is "so God regenerated them, saved them so they can believe in Him and love Him against their free will and choice to do so." Such a thing is a contradiction within itself for loving God and choosing Him against someone's will is the very definition of not loving Him and choosing Him.

Since the Bible speaks of a new birth (John 3) and regeneration, and you obviously disagree with the C/R view of it, I would be very interested to hear you define it in your own words and support it with scripture. That is a challenge for purposes of debate.

This is the Reformed view from my perspective, having gotten the basics from Reformed sources, but having at this stage come to my own understanding of it via my own study. Not all C/R will see it or incorporate it into apologetics they do themselves, in the same way, or even as would be the case of someone who taught it for four decades and still could not articulate it properly, never do their own homework. IMO. Labels really should be done away with in these debates, as they are very stereotypical, and often simply used as ineffective weapons. It is best to just debate ideas and views with the scriptures themselves.

According to John 3 a person must be born again in order to inherit the kingdom of heaven. The term regenerated is often used to refer to this new birth. What are we told about the new birth in John 3? It must happen before a person can inherit the kingdom (receive eternal life.) And how do we inherit this kingdom in the natural? By believing the person and work of Jesus---the gospel---as given in the scriptures. The fact that we must believe these things and that it is also necessary for a new birth or regeneration to take place indicates that the first must have something to do with the second. Otherwise it would be our belief that causes the new birth and Jesus says quite succinctly that it is the work of the Holy Spirit, that we are reborn by the will of God, and not by the will of man. Not to mention man never has and never will be able to produce his own birth, natural or otherwise. By the will of God he is born in the natural and by the will of God he is reborn.

So why this expression of a new birth? That is very interesting and if we have that question we will find the answer in very plain language in Romans 5:12-21. That is too long to quote it and take up the space. In a nutshell: in the natural we are born in Adam and that is why we have this sin nature that will not choose Christ lest we be asked to give up all our sinful pleasures. We have extreme tunnel vision to the point of blindness. We indeed have a natural enmity towards God. He is our enemy and we are His enemies. The Bible tells us this and I assume you do not deny those scriptures outright.

Waala! The new birth is being reborn in Christ. And if we are reborn in Christ what would be the natural consequence of this? We don't hate Him, we love Him. He is not our enemy any longer but He is our friend. We are so joined to Him in this new birth, this new man as the Bible says, that we are said to have died with Him (met sins just penalty in Him) and rose to life with Him. That quickening from dead in trespasses and sins to life in our Beloved.

So you see we were forced to do nothing. We did nothing against our will. We love Him because we do love Him not because we love Him but desire to hate Him. Don't be so silly.

Below I will remove any doubts or confusion you might have in thinking tulip is true and it’s not. Calvinism (tulip) is not true. It all stands or falls upon each letter the tulip represents. I know as I was a Calvinist for over 4 decades defending these doctrines of grace (tulip). And one of the most famous Calvinists of all Spurgeon went on record saying that tulip is the gospel. That is blatantly false and as Paul says in Galatians 1 that it is another gospel and adding to the gospel itself these man-made doctrines of grace.

So let me spell this out one more time with Scripture, the Bible. The Spirit comes after faith, confession, repentance.

The Spirit comes after believe, receive, confess, repent etc.......

Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel. Receive, Believe, Birth

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.

Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

In Acts below the Spirit comes after repentance

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In Galatians the Spirit comes after hearing, believing, receiving

Galatians 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?

Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture.

1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Rom 8:30
9- Sanctification- Rom 8
10- Glorification Rom 8:30

conclusion : the Spirit comes after faith , belief, receiving, repentance, confession, not before.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Gods grace can be resisted just the opposite of what the reformed teach and what is in tulip.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Since all men are not saved and Gods grace goes out to all men, Gods grace can be resisted.

Acts 7:51
“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

God the Holy Spirit can be resisted.

Hebrews 10:29
How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Here we see the Spirit of grace resisted, insulted, rejected and trampled under.

Hebrews 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Here we have those receiving Gods grace sharing in the Holy Spirit of grace reject it. They have fallen away permanently from His grace and can no longer repent.


Psalm 78:17;40
But they continued to sin against Him, rebelling in the desert against the Most High. How often they disobeyed Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert!

Here we see them in the wilderness rejecting Gods grace upon them and grieving God in the process.



Resistible Grace- God grace is not irresistible.

Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!

Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,

Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."


Limited Atonement not found below anywhere

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.


Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,

"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."

1)I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with Acts 7:51

2)I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:20, 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 John 2:2

3)I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosever will may come, that means all, everyone from numerous passages. John 1:12 John 3:16

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Man's ability to make choices of one thing or another is everywhere in the Bible. That man's man's will is so unencumbered and not imprisoned by his desire for what is sinful that he can override that and will choose the gospel is not.

1. Provide the quote. The Gospel is not selectively preached. Who are you to say that the Word of God does not cut the hearts of all men? I know from the Scriptures that it does. It always cuts. Always...

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive, effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, cutting to the point of dividing soul and spirit, joints from marrows, astutely judging the thoughts and intents of our human heart.

2. Why do you "believe" God CHOSE you at the expense of all your other brethren in Adam? The time of this ignorance is past. God commands everyone... everywhere to repent.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

[Ozias]

Gods grace can be resisted just the opposite of what the reformed teach and what is in tulip.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Since all men are not saved and Gods grace goes out to all men, Gods grace can be resisted.

Acts 7:51
“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

God the Holy Spirit can be resisted.

Hebrews 10:29
How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Here we see the Spirit of grace resisted, insulted, rejected and trampled under.

Hebrews 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Here we have those receiving Gods grace sharing in the Holy Spirit of grace reject it. They have fallen away permanently from His grace and can no longer repent.


Psalm 78:17;40
But they continued to sin against Him, rebelling in the desert against the Most High. How often they disobeyed Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert!

Here we see them in the wilderness rejecting Gods grace upon them and grieving God in the process.



Resistible Grace- God grace is not irresistible.

Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!

Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,

Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."


Limited Atonement not found below anywhere

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.


Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,

"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."

1)I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with Acts 7:51

2)I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:20, 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 John 2:2

3)I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosever will may come, that means all, everyone from numerous passages. John 1:12 John 3:16

hope this helps !!!

Makes sense to me. Now I have to buy a new book. Loraine Boettners The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Looks like I'm going to get off easy it's only 10 bucks.

 

[Ozias]

1. Provide the quote. The Gospel is not selectively preached. Who are you to say that the Word of God does not cut the hearts of all men? I know from the Scriptures that it does. It always cuts. Always...

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive, effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, cutting to the point of dividing soul and spirit, joints from marrows, astutely judging the thoughts and intents of our human heart.

2. Why do you "believe" God CHOSE you at the expense of all your other brethren in Adam? The time of this ignorance is past. God commands everyone... everywhere to repent.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Sometimes we make our choices too late. Like in the time of Noah once it started raining and they shut the door, that was all she wrote. They mocked and ridiculed Noah while he was building the ark, but they changed their tune.

They also mocked and ridiculed God:
16 Men who were snatched away before their time, whose foundations were poured out like a stream [during the flood]?
17 They said to God, Depart from us, and, What can the Almighty do for or to us? Job 22:16–17.

Did they choose to do that or were they just part of the non-elect? The key is choose to believe in Jesus when you hear the gospel.

 

[civic]

Sometimes we make our choices too late. Like in the time of Noah once it started raining and they shut the door, that was all she wrote. They mocked and ridiculed Noah while he was building the ark, but they changed their tune.

They also mocked and ridiculed God:
16 Men who were snatched away before their time, whose foundations were poured out like a stream [during the flood]?
17 They said to God, Depart from us, and, What can the Almighty do for or to us? Job 22:16–17.

Did they choose to do that or were they just part of the non-elect? The key is choose to believe in Jesus when you hear the gospel.

Good point like Paul in Roman’s 1 affirms Job 22:17 that God just gives them what they wanted and turns them over to their wishes not forcing His will on them . They chose to reject God , God did not predestine them to reject Him as taught in Calvinism .

 

[Arial]

1. Provide the quote. The Gospel is not selective preached. Who are you to say that the Word of God does not cut the hearts of all men? I know from the Scriptures that it does. It always cuts. Always...

How about "In the beginning God---". Everything that follows is God down to man, not man up to God. You ask for proof texts and there is no such thing. No scripture, no word, within the Bible is separated from the whole and the whole is God. Every theology, doctrine or belief, in order to be accurate must stem from what God says about Himself. Who He says He is and doing what He says He is doing, for the purpose that He gives.

Salvation does not come from knowing all things ever, and comes from knowing very little at our beginning. But for someone to present doctrines and make statements as truth when they have used no theology (doctrine of God) to arrive there, but only opinions and feelings and "proof texts" is reckless at best. And to do so to trample on the beliefs of those who have put in the necessary work is a joke. It is like the child of four saying to the parent, "I will not listen to you because I know more than you do."

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive, effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, cutting to the point of dividing soul and spirit, joints from marrows, astutely judging the thoughts and intents of our human heart.

For you to use that scripture in the context of this debate shows that you do not know what it means. It has nothing to do with God cutting the hearts of all men. The word being sharper than a double edged sword----has nothing to do with election or non-election. It is the writer of Hebrews writing to believers, encouraging them to persevere even in times of suffering and persecution. Reminding the that there is no such thing as sin that is hidden from God, not even in our hearts. It is the very word of God in the righteousness it teaches that is the measure.

2. Why do you "believe" God CHOSE you at the expense of all your other brethren in Adam? The time of this ignorance is past. God commands everyone... everywhere to repent.

He didn't choose me at the expense of anyone. Using dramatic expressions such as that to prop up an unfounded argument does not help your case in the least.The time of that ignorance is what should pass.

God does not become mutable with the passage of time and changes in culture btw.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

What are those times of ignorance that are past? Everything that was said before that statement. Paul is addressing the men of Athens, pagans who were always looking for the ultimate answer, the ultimate cause. The Gentiles had many gods, Israel one God, the only true and living God. Paul was bringing the knowledge of God to them. He addresses their false beliefs. He says the time of ignorance, of worshiping false gods was past for Jesus came to bring salvation, that is all nations knowing God and being reconciled to Him, and that trust in Jesus was the only way. He was preaching the gospel, and saying that there would come a day in which judgement would come on all men according to what they believe.

Those who believe will be resurrected from the dead. So it is unbelief one is to repent of. Those who do believe will be saved. Where does it say those who choose Christ or choose to believe will be saved? What is happening here for the crowd is the hearing of the gospel. Which no one can believe who does not hear it. It is not a "choose you this day---" situation as we find in the old covenant, that covenant of works. You can't choose. You must believe.

It would be best to stop using as proof texts those things that are not even speaking of what you use them to prove.

 

[civic]

How about "In the beginning God---". Everything that follows is God down to man, not man up to God. You ask for proof texts and there is no such thing. No scripture, no word, within the Bible is separated from the whole and the whole is God. Every theology, doctrine or belief, in order to be accurate must stem from what God says about Himself. Who He says He is and doing what He says He is doing, for the purpose that He gives.

Salvation does not come from knowing all things ever, and comes from knowing very little at our beginning. But for someone to present doctrines and make statements as truth when they have used no theology (doctrine of God) to arrive there, but only opinions and feelings and "proof texts" is reckless at best. And to do so to trample on the beliefs of those who have put in the necessary work is a joke. It is like the child of four saying to the parent, "I will not listen to you because I know more than you do."

For you to use that scripture in the context of this debate shows that you do not know what it means. It has nothing to do with God cutting the hearts of all men. The word being sharper than a double edged sword----has nothing to do with election or non-election. It is the writer of Hebrews writing to believers, encouraging them to persevere even in times of suffering and persecution. Reminding the that there is no such thing as sin that is hidden from God, not even in our hearts. It is the very word of God in the righteousness it teaches that is the measure.

He didn't choose me at the expense of anyone. Using dramatic expressions such as that to prop up an unfounded argument does not help your case in the least.The time of that ignorance is what should pass.

God does not become mutable with the passage of time and changes in culture btw.

What are those times of ignorance that are past? Everything that was said before that statement. Paul is addressing the men of Athens, pagans who were always looking for the ultimate answer, the ultimate cause. The Gentiles had many gods, Israel one God, the only true and living God. Paul was bringing the knowledge of God to them. He addresses their false beliefs. He says the time of ignorance, of worshiping false gods was past for Jesus came to bring salvation, that is all nations knowing God and being reconciled to Him, and that trust in Jesus was the only way. He was preaching the gospel, and saying that there would come a day in which judgement would come on all men according to what they believe.

Those who believe will be resurrected from the dead. So it is unbelief one is to repent of. Those who do believe will be saved. Where does it say those who choose Christ or choose to believe will be saved? What is happening here for the crowd is the hearing of the gospel. Which no one can believe who does not hear it. It is not a "choose you this day---" situation as we find in the old covenant, that covenant of works. You can't choose. You must believe.

It would be best to stop using as proof texts those things that are not even speaking of what you use them to prove.

One either chooses to believe the gospel or remain in unbelief by their own choosing . Do I need to post 6 dozen verses to prove we are saved by faith in Christ , the gospel ?

 

[Arial]

One either chooses to believe the gospel or remain in unbelief by their own choosing . Do I need to post 6 dozen verses to prove we are saved by faith in Christ , the gospel ?

I know we are saved by faith in Christ. What does that have to do with choosing? Go ahead, give me the scriptures, I have had them all thrown at me. Not a one of them contains any word even remotely connected to a person choosing anything.That concept is added to them, because the belief in the concept preceded reading the scriptures.

 

[civic]

I know we are saved by faith in Christ. What does that have to do with choosing? Go ahead, give me the scriptures, I have had them all thrown at me. Not a one of them contains any word even remotely connected to a person choosing anything.That concept is added to them, because the belief in the concept preceded reading the scriptures.

So God believes for you right ?

Who does the believing you or God ?

Did you believe against your will or were you willing ?

 

[civic]

I can quote plenty of verses where the Savior Himself challenged many people to willingly follow Him, choose to believe in Him, choose to give up their life for Him and so on so forth . The gospels are filled with this language from Christ .

And laughing about it doesn’t change that truth .

 

[Arial]

Makes sense to me. Now I have to buy a new book. Loraine Boettners The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Looks like I'm going to get off easy it's only 10 bucks.

Do as you please but as a caution, civic has quoted in another forum this Boetner's. who he calls an authority on the subject, outline of TULIP. In every "letter" he first misstates the actual doctrine of that letter, and after having done that, proceeds to "proof text" his way through it.

I do wish people would grasp the art of recognizing when something is put forth as truth by using nothing but logical fallacies!

The sad thing is, as in the book "Chosen But Free," most go into these fallacies as presented not knowing the truth about the doctrine and have no idea of knowing that it is misstated or in what way, and therefore they believe it without any further investigation of the actual doctrine on their own. It is a form of thought control. And someone who claims to have taught Calvinism for four decades should by this time recognize the fallacies at once, rather than promoting them. All I can say about that is if they were teaching what B says about Calvinism, they were teaching it wrong. Which would be sad if it weren't so disturbing.

The point seems to be at all costs kill Calvinism, this time for real, as it was declared dead back in the 19th century, but lo and behold was only sleeping. So what if there are those who understand it and in this understanding find it to be precisely what the Bible declares about God? Why the all out campaign to kill their understanding when it in no way affects one's salvation? That is a division in the body of Christ and an attempt to amputate a portion of it.

 

[Arial]

So God believes for you right ?

Who does the believing you or God ?

Did you believe against your will or were you willing ?

Don't be ridiculous. Where do you even get the idea that God regenerating man means He believes for him? Where or where has reason and logic flown off to?

Try this. I heard. I believed what I heard. My will has nothing to do with it.

 

[civic]

Don't be ridiculous. Where do you even get the idea that God regenerating man means He believes for him? Where or where has reason and logic flown off to?

Try this. I heard. I believed what I heard. My will has nothing to do with it.

So you were born again before you believed . That’s the complete opposite of what Jesus and the Apostles taught . And your will has everything to do with faith .

 

[Arial]

So you were born again before you believed . That’s the complete opposite of what Jesus and the Apostles taught . And your will has everything to do with faith .

I had to be born in Christ, born again, in order to believe.

How is it the opposite of what Jesus and the apostles taught?

My will has every thing to do with how I live my life in Christ, and what I do with what I am given. Believers have responsibilities after they are saved---to grow in living a life worthy of their calling. And even in that they are not doing it alone.

SInce when does faith itself have anything to do with the will? Ever. Obedience has to do with the will. Faith does not. God says it is a gift He gives. Perhaps your have an idea of faith that does not reach a depth of what it really is and always has been. Gotta go.