Why Calvinism is a bad thing.
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atpollard
Well-known member
"But I say to you, do not show opposition against an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other toward him also." - Jesus (Matthew 5:39)
"For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a servant of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a servant of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil." - Paul (Romans 13:3-4)
WE turn the other cheek, but the GOVERNMENT bears a sword ... both ordained by God.
Behold
Well-known member
Lets just look at one aspect of John Calvinism that is so blatantly Cross denying.
1.) Some are "pre-destined" to be the Elect.
This means that God only chooses some, to be elected.
This means that God chooses to NOT allow some people to come to Christ.
They have no Choice, according to Calvin.. They are [pre-destined} to be born,= to burn in the Lake of Fire, according to the Satanic John Calvinism..
So, that is wrong on many levels, but let me just point out one... ...
= Why, would God choose to ELECT you go to heaven, but not your mother?
= Why, would God choose your Grandfather to be elected, but not your GrandMother?
= Why would God CHOOSE to elect your Daughter, but not your Son.
See, when you break it down, ... like that.. Clearly..... then this edited CALVINISM theology, is a very ugly thing indeed once you turn on the LIGHT and reveal it in all its edited glory.
So, we have to realize something about the NT that is a complete denial of John Calvinism.
Its this..
= "God is no respecter of anyone (persons)."" and "ALL have sinned".
So, what does that mean Mr Calvinist?
It means that we are all the SAME... at birth.
And why does that deny Calvinism?
Its because those verses prove that God has no BASIS to choose you and not your mother.
God has No BASIS to elect your Grandmother and not your Sister.
So, Mr Pre-Destined Elect..... Think on that, before you run back in here quoting something that is going to prove what i just wrote is absolutely true. (Which it is.)
And dont reach for this one... "Well, God hardeneth whom He will"... as if you go there, you'l have to explain why God didnt harden YOU, but Hardened your Mother, or your Brother, or your DAD...
'
And do not play the deceptive game that Calvinist's play with themselves... that is..>......"well, all my family, and all my friends, and all my church members are the ELECT"..
C'mon.......try to be honest.....
Really., as this matters.
1.) Some are "pre-destined" to be the Elect.
This means that God only chooses some, to be elected.
This means that God chooses to NOT allow some people to come to Christ.
They have no Choice, according to Calvin.. They are [pre-destined} to be born,= to burn in the Lake of Fire, according to the Satanic John Calvinism..
So, that is wrong on many levels, but let me just point out one... ...
= Why, would God choose to ELECT you go to heaven, but not your mother?
= Why, would God choose your Grandfather to be elected, but not your GrandMother?
= Why would God CHOOSE to elect your Daughter, but not your Son.
See, when you break it down, ... like that.. Clearly..... then this edited CALVINISM theology, is a very ugly thing indeed once you turn on the LIGHT and reveal it in all its edited glory.
So, we have to realize something about the NT that is a complete denial of John Calvinism.
Its this..
= "God is no respecter of anyone (persons)."" and "ALL have sinned".
So, what does that mean Mr Calvinist?
It means that we are all the SAME... at birth.
And why does that deny Calvinism?
Its because those verses prove that God has no BASIS to choose you and not your mother.
God has No BASIS to elect your Grandmother and not your Sister.
So, Mr Pre-Destined Elect..... Think on that, before you run back in here quoting something that is going to prove what i just wrote is absolutely true. (Which it is.)
And dont reach for this one... "Well, God hardeneth whom He will"... as if you go there, you'l have to explain why God didnt harden YOU, but Hardened your Mother, or your Brother, or your DAD...
'
And do not play the deceptive game that Calvinist's play with themselves... that is..>......"well, all my family, and all my friends, and all my church members are the ELECT"..
C'mon.......try to be honest.....
Really., as this matters.
atpollard
Well-known member
Let's call it "Calvinism" if we are talking about Reformed Theology and T.U.L.I.P. or "John Calvin" if we are talking about the dead man and his writings ... there is no such thing as "John Calvinism".
[Is "John Calvinism" like "John Q. Public" ... a hypothetical 'typical' Calvinist?]
Behold
Well-known member
Lets be honest, and call it "deception".
See, Calvin teaches that God pre-destined some of your family to die and go to Hell.........
And they were chosen to be that, before they were born, (According to edited Calvin).
So, some of the Family, of every single John Calvinist, is "chosen to NOT BE the pre-destined" elect.
Welcome to : John Calvinism .. @isnt it EDITED ?
Yes it is.
I bet your preacher, teacher, or minister, never tells your congregation that TRUTH.... oh ye pre-destined one.
Right?
Right?
As if he did tell them.... that some of their FAMILY is PRE-chosen by God to BURN in the Lake of FIRE...., the church membership would rebel, wake up, and get out of this edited.
"but behold... you have to understand... "all of my family is the pre-destined", its just that "yours might not be". "and the other members here... some of their family are BORN TO BURN">.. "but not mine, says the DECEIVED CALVINIST"
So, see that?
That is how far into the black Satanic Hole a Calvinist has been led by this Devil.
Its really pathetic, as well as terribly tragic, just how deceived Calvin can deceive you.
Hebrews 13:9... If you dont do what it says, then Calvin will get you, or one like Him.
Believe it.
edited : lets not call the beliefs of others satanic or a cult.
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atpollard
Well-known member
Paul [and the Holy Spirit that inspired him] anticipated your objections and provided Romans Chapter 9 to address "God is not fair" whining. Did God mean this or not:
Just as it is written: "JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED."
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION." So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.
- [Romans 9:13-16 NASB]
... and Do you believe the scripture or not?
WHO DOES IT DEPEND ON? The person or God? (see above)
I am glad that you acknowledged that "ALL have sinned". Let's see if you can acknowledge this verse as well:
"And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed."
- [John 3:19-20 NASB]
If ALL have sinned and sinning IS doing evil and EVERYONE who does evil (which is all apart from Christ's redemption) "hates the Light" (Jesus) and "does not come to the Light" (Jesus) ... then let's look back at all those that are not chosen by God.
- They will ALL sin (you said that yourself)
- They will WANT to hide from the Light (Jesus)
- They will refuse to come to the Light (Jesus)
- v. 24: Therefore God gave them up ... [God did not drive them away, but merely allowed them more freedom to sin.]
- v. 26: For this reason God gave them over ... [God did not drive them away, but merely allowed them more freedom to sin.]
- v. 28: God gave them up to a depraved mind ... [God did not drive them away, but merely allowed them complete freedom to sin.]
God CAN harden (you know the verses for yourself), however as I have already demonstrated, God has little need to. People are quite capable of sinning more without God needing to push anyone away. God needs to DRAW (drag, pull, haul) people to the Son. God needs to remove "hearts of stone" (we built for ourselves) and replace them with "hearts of flesh" that are capable of loving God and drawing near to God.
Here are some verses to ponder [all NASB]:
- For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION." So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. -Rom 9:15-16
- And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. - Eph 2:1-10
- "But the one who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds will be revealed as having been performed in God." -John 3:21
- "My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." - John 10:27-30
- When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed. - Acts 13:48
atpollard
Well-known member
I am, but question if you are capable of honest dialog.
Even after having it explained to you that "John Calvinism" is a nonsensical conflation of "John Calvin" (a person) and "Calvinism" (a slang for Reformed Theology and T.U.L.I.P.), you insist on continuing to use the nonsensical term.
Behold
Well-known member
Exactly what a disciple of Calvin, would have to say.....
You have to make it personal, as you have nothing real to offer, @atpollard.
So, keep your carnality to yourself.
Behold
Well-known member
Its not "whining" to show a Calvinist just how evil Calvinism is..
Calvin misrepresents, then twists the verses, because He could understand that "Foreknowledge" does not mean "pre-destined".
Are you able to comprehend this?
Absolutely.
Sinners love sin, ... Yet, "Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS", and not just "call the elect", as Calvin's Heresy teaches.
Jesus said... "If i be lifted up on the Cross, I will DRAW everyone to me"....
"everyone" is : John 3:16, which Calvin denies.
If humans dont have freewill then why did Adam bite the Apple?
See, humans all have the right of CHOICE, and that is free-will.
If you didnt have the right to choose Christ as your Savior, then God could not hold you accountable for being a Christ Rejector.
God did that to Pharaoh.
Cavin applied it to the "not pre-destined" that is Calvin's Theological Insanity, among others.
Yes, and that is OT, and that is being spoken to Moses.
Are you in the OT, under the Law of Moses?
Really?
As the Bride of Christ isn't.
We are in the NT under a NEW Covenant< (in case you dont realize it yet)... = under a "better covenant"< that is the GRACE of God, that is John 3:16
= Jesus sacrificed for the sin of the World......for everyone's sin.
Welcome to : Salvation.
Its a "Gift".
atpollard
Well-known member
You did not address PAUL's response to the anticipated objections.
What YOU think is "evil" is irrelevant when the "norma normans non normata"* is what the Bible says is TRUE. If the claims of Calvinism (those "Calvinists" actually make as distinct from the false claims about what we believe) are supported by Scripture, then they should be accepted (irrespective of your opinion) and if the claims of Calvinism are contradicted by Scripture, then they should be rejected (irrespective of my opinion).
*used to describe Scripture as the standard according to which all other standards or rules of the Christian faith are measured, and the one standard which has no higher standard against which it is measured.
Behold
Well-known member
I have described Calvin's Assault on the Cross and his Theological insanity, more clearly then a hyper-calvinist wanted to Know.
So, i'll leave all my previous words to be read by students of the Bible, and by Calvinist's, and by all others..
And thank you for allowing me to use your Calvinism teaching to highlight such a Satanic Beast, as J. Calvin.
atpollard
Well-known member
Does "predestined" mean "predestined"?
"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." - Romans 8:29-30
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory." - Ephesians 1:3-12
Are you able to comprehend this? [I can.]
However, Romans 9:13-16 was not speaking about "predestined" ... it was speaking about the LOVE and MERCY of God to save some . Read it again:
Just as it is written: "JACOB I HAVE LOVED, BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED."
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION." So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.
- [Romans 9:13-16 NASB]
So one more time: Do you believe Scripture or not? Does it depend "on the person who wants it [or] the one who runs"?
atpollard
Well-known member
Sigh ... another strawman.
Is "everyone" really "everyone without exception"? If that is what Jesus meant, then God's plan failed. Every atheist was not drawn to Jesus. Every devout Hindu and Muslim was not drawn to Jesus. Every person that lived and died never hearing the Gospel (1500 years of generation after Generation in the Western Hemisphere) was not drawn to Jesus. Clearly, EVERY PERSON WITHOUT EXCEPTION was not drawn to Jesus. That is just REALITY!
On the other hand, if "everyone" means "everyone without distinction", then God really is "no respecter of persons" [Acts 10:34] and Jesus did "purchase people for God with [His] blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation." [Revelation 5:9]. The plan of God was a complete success! That is also REALITY!
So which EVERYONE did God intend? Was God's plan a failure or a success?
[FYI: this isn't even Calvinism vs Free Will, this is just basic understanding the Word of God. This is true even if PEOPLE choose God with their Free Will ... EVERYONE cannot mean "all without exception" without either God failing or embracing Universal Salvation.]
atpollard
Well-known member
This is a dishonest response. You didn't even quote my full sentence and even the part that you quoted demonstrates that I never claimed that people have no Free Will. I said, and you quoted, "Mankind does not have a Neutral Free Will".
- Adam is not "mankind", so you have moved the goalposts.
- The full quote was: "Notice that it is not God that it pushing them away from Jesus, they all freely chose to sin and flee from Jesus. Mankind does not have a Neutral Free Will ... We have a Fallen Free Will. We are free to do what we want, and what we want is sin and fleeing from God."
Behold
Well-known member
Yes.
"Jesus came into the WORLD.... to save SINNERS".... = "ALL who call on the name of Jesus, shall be Saved"... not all who are elected to call, as Satanic JCalvinism teaches.
"Jesus Said.....If I be LIFTED UP (on the Cross), i will Draw EVERYONE, to myself".. without exception....as ALL are invited to The Cross..
John 3:16.... "the WORLD".
"All" means All..... unless you are a Calvinist, and then you must obey Calvinism's error that "all does not mean all".. ."everyone does not mean everyone"....
Behold
Well-known member
The fall of "man" is... "by one MAN's sin, sin entered the world, and death by sin" to us ALL.
That "mankind".
Behold
Well-known member
That is true.
And its also a stone cold fact, that born again believers, sometimes fornicate, and murder, and steal, and lie., and live on Facebook and Twitter, and BINGE on "Netflix", and.... also sat there for 7 yrs, watching "Game of Thrones" that was filled with SEX, RAPE, INCEST">. and they new it, and kept watching for 7 yrs..
And the flip side, is that some unbelievers, don't do any of that.... yet, they are going to Hell.
atpollard
Well-known member
I quoted Paul in the book of Romans (which is the New Testament). Apparently the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostle Paul to include that direct quote from the mouth of God in a letter to Christians living in Rome ... but YOU know better and advise that we should just ignore it since it doesn't apply to us.
OK. Yup. Whatever.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
All means all. The question is, all of whom? For that, you need context. Which is what lots of people on here consistently omit when they talk about "all" or "any".
atpollard
Well-known member
Of course not. The unbeliever lived a sinless life and will get into heaven on his personal merit ... just like Jesus and you.
For the rest of us, the issue is John 3:18 "The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." and Acts 4:12 "there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among mankind by which we must be saved.”
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