Why Calvinism is a bad thing.

[Behold]

I quoted Paul in the book of Romans (which is the New Testament). Apparently the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostle Paul to include that direct quote from the mouth of God in a letter to Christians living in Rome ... but YOU know better and advise that we should just ignore it since it doesn't apply to us.

The Cross of Christ is "the Gift of Salvation"..
Its John 3:16

Its 2 Corinthians 5:19, that says that GOD was IN Christ , in the world, not counting sin, against people.
Not just the Elect, as John Calvinism, has taught you to believe.

God came here as Christ on the Cross to shed His Blood for "sinners", not just the "elect"

""Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS">...

Calvin denies this, so that is denying the Cross.

 

[Behold]

WE turn the other cheek,

That is a general spiritual rule, but it has exceptions.

1.) Meek, does not mean WEAK

2.) Jesus made a WHIP out of cords of rope and drove out the money changers from the Temple.

3.) Ananias and Sapphira , were not forgiven, they were executed in front of the Believers.

4.) Paul caused a male witch to "go blind for a season"....

5.) Paul said....""Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done.""

Notice that Paul didn't turn the other cheek or forgive and forget.

Read Galatians 1:8... That is Paul's personal curse on MILLIONS of cult members who teach that "water washes away your sin", and similar "false gospels"> such as "limited atonement".

Read Titus 3:10... as this is Paul explaining that when you have a HERETIC in your church.... you give them a few chances to get their doctrine correct, and if they wont, you toss them outside, and you LOCK THEM OUT......you dont forgive and accept.....You make them GET OUT.. and Stay OUT !

 

[atpollard]

God came here as Christ on the Cross to shed His Blood for "sinners", not just the "elect"

""Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS">...

Let me see if I am following your argument:

• Everyone is a sinner.
• Jesus came to save ALL sinners
• All sinners (everyone without exception) is saved.

That's UNIVERSALISM, Patrick! [Lutheran Satire reference]

 

[Behold]

Let me see if I am following your argument:

• Everyone is a sinner.

"all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".

That includes you @atpollard

• Jesus came to save ALL sinners

"Jesus came into the world to save sinners".

1 Timothy 1:15

• All sinners (everyone without exception) is saved.

That's UNIVERSALISM, Patrick! [Lutheran Satire reference]

Now you posted a quote i never made., nor is it something i teach.
That makes you a deceiver. (Typical Calvinist)....
Will you repent later to Calvin or Christ??

Listen carefully...

The Cross is ... 2 Corinthians 5:19 .. and John 3:17

"""" God was in Christ, reconciling the WORLD unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them;""

""""""For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the WORLD...; but that the world through him might be saved.""


Now pay attention ......

Salvation = is universally OFFERED, through Christ, as those verses teach, but not everyone will be saved..
You have to BELIEVE in Jesus to receive God's "gift of Salvation".
You have to give God your FAITH in Christ, and THEN, God will perform those verses regarding ONLY the BELIEVER..

There is no such thing as universal salvation,.. but the OFFER of Salvation, is "to the WORLD"< so that is a universal offer.

 

[atpollard]

Now you posted a quote i never made., nor is it something i teach.

It was an extrapolation from your harsh claims about anyone that believing that only the Elect were saved. The opposite of "only some are saved" is "all are saved" ... so I simply took you at your word in rejecting "God only saves some".

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Salvation = is universally OFFERED, through Christ, as those verses teach, but not everyone will be saved..
You have to BELIEVE in Jesus to receive God's "gift of Salvation".
You have to give God your FAITH in Christ, and THEN, God will perform those verses regarding ONLY the BELIEVER..

There is no such thing as universal salvation,.. but the OFFER of Salvation, is "to the WORLD"< so that is a universal offer.

In other words, the atonement is sufficient for all mankind, but not efficient for all mankind. And with that, I agree. God makes it efficacious for the elect. It is not of him who wills or runs, but of God who has mercy upon whomever he wants to have mercy.

 

[civic]

Sigh ... another strawman.

Is "everyone" really "everyone without exception"? If that is what Jesus meant, then God's plan failed. Every atheist was not drawn to Jesus. Every devout Hindu and Muslim was not drawn to Jesus. Every person that lived and died never hearing the Gospel (1500 years of generation after Generation in the Western Hemisphere) was not drawn to Jesus. Clearly, EVERY PERSON WITHOUT EXCEPTION was not drawn to Jesus. That is just REALITY!

On the other hand, if "everyone" means "everyone without distinction", then God really is "no respecter of persons" [Acts 10:34] and Jesus did "purchase people for God with [His] blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation." [Revelation 5:9]. The plan of God was a complete success! That is also REALITY!

So which EVERYONE did God intend? Was God's plan a failure or a success?

[FYI: this isn't even Calvinism vs Free Will, this is just basic understanding the Word of God. This is true even if PEOPLE choose God with their Free Will ... EVERYONE cannot mean "all without exception" without either God failing or embracing Universal Salvation.]

Maybe you should define draw ?

 

[civic]

In other words, the atonement is sufficient for all mankind, but not efficient for all mankind. And with that, I agree. God makes it efficacious for the elect. It is not of him who wills or runs, but of God who has mercy upon whomever he wants to have mercy.

It’s efficacious for those who believe.

 

[Behold]

In other words, the atonement is sufficient for all mankind, but not efficient for all mankind. And with that, I agree. God makes it efficacious for the elect. It is not of him who wills or runs, but of God who has mercy upon whomever he wants to have mercy.

If a THEOLOGY = limits the Cross to ONLY those who were never born yet, you deny the reason that Jesus died on the Cross for the sin of the world.

You deny the Cross, itself.

That's "limited atonement"....

God does not Limit the Cross of Christ, but Calvin did, because all agents of the devil try to change How God reconciles "the world" unto Himself.

John 3:16

2 Corinthians 5:19

John 3:17

"limited atonement", is in fact, : Galatians 1:8... and all those who teach and preach it, are in big trouble.

 

[GeneZ]

Lets just look at one aspect of John Calvinism that is so blatantly Cross denying.


1.) Some are "pre-destined" to be the Elect.

This means that God only chooses some, to be elected.
This means that God chooses to NOT allow some people to come to Christ.
They have no Choice, according to Calvin.. They are [pre-destined} to be born,= to burn in the Lake of Fire, according to the Satanic John Calvinism..
So, that is wrong on many levels, but let me just point out one... ...

= Why, would God choose to ELECT you go to heaven, but not your mother?
= Why, would God choose your Grandfather to be elected, but not your GrandMother?
= Why would God CHOOSE to elect your Daughter, but not your Son.

See, when you break it down, ... like that.. Clearly..... then this edited CALVINISM theology, is a very ugly thing indeed once you turn on the LIGHT and reveal it in all its edited glory.

So, we have to realize something about the NT that is a complete denial of John Calvinism.

Its this..

= "God is no respecter of anyone (persons)."" and "ALL have sinned".

So, what does that mean Mr Calvinist?
It means that we are all the SAME... at birth.

And why does that deny Calvinism?
Its because those verses prove that God has no BASIS to choose you and not your mother.
God has No BASIS to elect your Grandmother and not your Sister.

So, Mr Pre-Destined Elect..... Think on that, before you run back in here quoting something that is going to prove what i just wrote is absolutely true. (Which it is.)

And dont reach for this one... "Well, God hardeneth whom He will"... as if you go there, you'l have to explain why God didnt harden YOU, but Hardened your Mother, or your Brother, or your DAD...
'
And do not play the deceptive game that Calvinist's play with themselves... that is..>......"well, all my family, and all my friends, and all my church members are the ELECT"..

C'mon.......try to be honest.....

Really., as this matters.

Here is a quick refresher course....

 

[atpollard]

Maybe you should define draw ?

By what definition is someone that never heard of Jesus "drawn" to Him? Can that "draw" save them?
How many ATHEISTS do you expect to see in heaven, "drawn" - by whatever definition - to Jesus?

I do not think the definition of DRAW is the problem. However, for the sake of discussion:

• [John 6:44 NASB] "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws[G1670] him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
• [Strongs] ἑλκύω helkýō, hel-koo'-o; probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw.
  • [John 12:32] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw[G1670] all [people] to Myself."
  • [John 18:10] 10 Then Simon Peter, since he had a sword, drew[G1670] it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.
  • [John 21:6, 11] 6 And He said to them, "Cast the net on the right-hand side of the boat, and you will find [the fish.]" So they cast [it,] and then they were not able to haul[G1670] it in because of the great quantity of fish. ... 11 So Simon Peter went up and hauled[G1670] the net to land, full of large fish; and although there were so many, the net was not torn.
  • [Act 16:19] 19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was [suddenly] gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged[G1670] them into the marketplace before the authorities,
  • [Act 21:30] 30 Then the whole city was provoked and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged[G1670] him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.
  • [James 2:6] 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag[G1670] you into court?
• [Thayers] ἕλκω (and in later writings ἑλκύω also [Veitch, under the word; Winer's Grammar, 86 (82)]); imperfect εἷλκον (Acts 21:30); future ἑλκύσω [ἑλκ. Rec.elz John 12:32]; 1 aorist εἵλκυσα ([infinitive (John 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, -κύσαι Rst G Tr]; cf. Bttm. Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii., p. 171; Krüger § 40, under the word; [Lob. Paralip., p. 35f; Veitch, under the word]); from Homer down; Sept. for מָשַׁך; to draw;
  1. properly: τὸ δίκτυον, John 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, John 18:10 (Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινά, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τὴν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, James 2:6 (πρὸς τὸν δῆμον, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caesar b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4) cum trinis catenis vinctus traheretur, Livy 2, 27 cum a lictoribus jam traheretur).
  2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας... ἑλκουσης ἐπὶ ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπὸ τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (4 Macc 15:11). trahit sua quemque voluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; [Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.]

 

[Behold]

• [John 6:44 NASB] "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws[G1670] him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

Here is the context of your verse.

40 For my Father’s will is that EVERYONE who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Who is "everyone'?

John 3:16

 

[praise_yeshua]

In other words, the atonement is sufficient for all mankind, but not efficient for all mankind. And with that, I agree. God makes it efficacious for the elect. It is not of him who wills or runs, but of God who has mercy upon whomever he wants to have mercy.

The power of the Atonement is not limited in any sense. It has the power to save all of humanity. It is poor hermeneutics to limit the power of the Atonement.

What we are really dealing with here is effectiveness.

 

[GeneZ]

Who are we? So many guesses here!

 

[praise_yeshua]

By what definition is someone that never heard of Jesus "drawn" to Him? Can that "draw" save them?
How many ATHEISTS do you expect to see in heaven, "drawn" - by whatever definition - to Jesus?

I do not think the definition of DRAW is the problem. However, for the sake of discussion:

• [John 6:44 NASB] "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws[G1670] him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
• [Strongs] ἑλκύω helkýō, hel-koo'-o; probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw.
  • [John 12:32] 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw[G1670] all [people] to Myself."
  • [John 18:10] 10 Then Simon Peter, since he had a sword, drew[G1670] it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.
  • [John 21:6, 11] 6 And He said to them, "Cast the net on the right-hand side of the boat, and you will find [the fish.]" So they cast [it,] and then they were not able to haul[G1670] it in because of the great quantity of fish. ... 11 So Simon Peter went up and hauled[G1670] the net to land, full of large fish; and although there were so many, the net was not torn.
  • [Act 16:19] 19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was [suddenly] gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged[G1670] them into the marketplace before the authorities,
  • [Act 21:30] 30 Then the whole city was provoked and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged[G1670] him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.
  • [James 2:6] 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag[G1670] you into court?
• [Thayers] ἕλκω (and in later writings ἑλκύω also [Veitch, under the word; Winer's Grammar, 86 (82)]); imperfect εἷλκον (Acts 21:30); future ἑλκύσω [ἑλκ. Rec.elz John 12:32]; 1 aorist εἵλκυσα ([infinitive (John 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, -κύσαι Rst G Tr]; cf. Bttm. Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii., p. 171; Krüger § 40, under the word; [Lob. Paralip., p. 35f; Veitch, under the word]); from Homer down; Sept. for מָשַׁך; to draw;
  1. properly: τὸ δίκτυον, John 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, John 18:10 (Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινά, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τὴν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, James 2:6 (πρὸς τὸν δῆμον, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caesar b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4) cum trinis catenis vinctus traheretur, Livy 2, 27 cum a lictoribus jam traheretur).
  2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας... ἑλκουσης ἐπὶ ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπὸ τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (4 Macc 15:11). trahit sua quemque voluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; [Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.]

Calvinism teaches dragging. Not drawing.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Who are we? So many guesses here!

Descendents of Adam. Descendents of Christ.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Here is a quick refresher course....

He is very wrong about DTS. I stopped listen there.

 

[atpollard]

Here is the context of your verse.

Irrelevant ...

... @civic requested, and I provided, the definition for the WORD "draw" by first citing a scripture verse in which it appears and then examining the Greek word from which the English translation is derived. Only the word "draws" [Strongs G1670] was important and John 6:44 was simply the first verse in the Bible where the word [G1670] appeared. I went on to list EVERY verse where the word appears to see its Biblical usage.

Your "knee-jerk" hatred of Biblical Truth is Pavlovian ... you instinctively attack claims that no one is making.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Irrelevant ...

... @civic requested, and I provided, the definition for the WORD "draw" by first citing a scripture verse in which it appears and then examining the Greek word from which the English translation is derived. Only the word "draws" [Strongs G1670] was important and John 6:44 was simply the first verse in the Bible where the word [G1670] appeared. I went on to list EVERY verse where the word appears to see its Biblical usage.

Your "knee-jerk" hatred of Biblical Truth is Pavlovian ... you instinctively attack claims that no one is making.

Draw does not indicate success. You're looking for "drag".

 

[GeneZ]

God draws us as He had drawn in Jeremiah's day.
God does not change. He is the same today, yesterday, and forever.

Jeremiah 31:3....​

​

The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying:​

​

“I have loved you with an everlasting love;​

Therefore with loving kindness I have drawn you."​

​

If God draws men to Himself? And, God is love!​

​

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever ​

loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not ​

love does not know God, because God is love. " 1 John 4:7-8​

​

If God is drawing men to Himself? Then they are being drawn by love.

Calvinism as it appears in TULIP is cruelty and impugns the character of God...

grace and peace!



..........