Why Calvinism is a bad thing.

[Bob Carabbio]

I'm not a Calvinist nor an Arminian. Yet, I do share beliefs with both.

As do we all. Calvin and Arminius did get some thing right, for sure.

 

[civic]

As do we all. Calvin and Arminius did get some thing right, for sure.

The Trinity

 

[JonC]

His teachings were bad, but that's not at all what I was talking about.

I was talking about his overbearing harshness in punishments.

It was the whole religious system he was a part of:

The official acts of the [Geneva City] Council from 1541 to 1559 exhibit a dark chapter of censures, fines, imprisonments, and executions. During the ravages of the pestilence in 1545 more than twenty men and women were burnt alive for witchcraft, and a wicked conspiracy to spread the horrible disease. From 1542 to 1546 fifty-eight judgments of death and seventy-six decrees of banishments were passed. During the years 1558 and 1559 the cases of various punishments for all sorts of offenses amounted to four hundred and fourteen—a very large proportion for a population of 20,000.

(Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 8: § 107. The Exercise of Discipline in Geneva)

I do not think we can understand how any of these religious people drifted from scripture so far, in the realm of sanctification

 

[TibiasDad]

I know you fail to see it yourself. Your words establish such.

And yet you cannot seem to demonstrate this proposition!

I'm not limited by your own self assessment.

You said "Sure there is, because God has offered us salvation.".... in response to my comments. "However, there is no effort or value in "asking" God to save you."

I used the word "effort" and "value".

But I haven’t used them, not implied them, at least not as you have seemed to define them. Yes, our action of placing trust in God’s promises is required, and thus is an “effort”. And that God requires this establishes necessity, which means that God certainly perceives it as containing “value”, at least in the sense that it is meaningful. But “effort” does not mean it is a work that, in itself, obligates God, and this work has value that needs to be applied to man.

No. Which is my point. They are hard distinct relative only to God's direct action. Which leaves nothing to choose.

It wasn’t about choosing, per se, it was about the simplicity of truth: You’re either right or wrong, dead or alive, male or female.

Consideration demands complications. How many times have you accepted a simple "Yes or No" answer to things of Eternal value. I do agree that man complications it. That is actually what you're doing here by oversimplifying it when it is more complex than you allow.

Man complicates in looking for “loopholes”, but the truth of the Gospel is straightforward and simple; simple enough for a childlike faith to respond to it. It says very simply, “This is the truth about you and God, do you believe it?

We agree in this. I was going simply by your previous comments above in reference to "effort" and "value".

And as I said, I said nothing about effort or value when I said “Sure there is, because God has offered us salvation.” But I’m glad we’re on the same page now’



Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

But I haven’t used them, not implied them, at least not as you have seemed to define them. Yes, our action of placing trust in God’s promises is required, and thus is an “effort”. And that God requires this establishes necessity, which means that God certainly perceives it as containing “value”, at least in the sense that it is meaningful. But “effort” does not mean it is a work that, in itself, obligates God, and this work has value that needs to be applied to man.

"effort" is defined as a vigorous or determined attempt.

"effort" is work. Calling on the name of the Lord is NOT EFFORT.

 

[GeneZ]

"effort" is defined as a vigorous or determined attempt.

"effort" is work. Calling on the name of the Lord is NOT EFFORT.

Calling on the name of the Lord finds its way into our thinking after our own efforts to solve our problems becomes apparent to fail.
Its dropping our own effort that walks us into salvation. Letting the Lord take over.

"Calling" for an ambulance does not save you. Its the ambulance that does that.
Likewise.... calling on the name of the Lord does not save us. What saves us is the Lord answering the call.

Yet, it was the Lord who gave us the phone number to call in case of emergency in the first place.

 

[civic]

Calling on the name of the Lord finds its way into our thinking after our own efforts to solve our problems becomes apparent to fail.
Its dropping our own effort that walks us into salvation. Letting the Lord take over.

"Calling" for an ambulance does not save you. Its the ambulance that does that.
Likewise.... calling on the name of the Lord does not save us. What saves us is the Lord answering the call.

Yet, it was the Lord who gave us the phone number to call in case of emergency in the first place.

Calling upon the name of the Lord to be saved is biblical as per Roman’s 10

 

[GeneZ]

Calling upon the name of the Lord to be saved is biblical as per Roman’s 10

Like, calling for the Ambulance will get you saved.

We must call the Ambulance. But, the Ambulance driver first gave us the phone number to call.

Its a two way street. We must call for the One who saves!

When we call on the name of the Lord its a denouncement against Satan and his demons who wanted to make themselves to be our savior.
Calling on the name of the Lord is a slap in Satan's face, and God gets the glory.

Yes... we do something which opens the door for God to do all the work from that point on.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Calling on the name of the Lord finds its way into our thinking after our own efforts to solve our problems becomes apparent to fail.
Its dropping our own effort that walks us into salvation. Letting the Lord take over.

"Calling" for an ambulance does not save you. Its the ambulance that does that.
Likewise.... calling on the name of the Lord does not save us. What saves us is the Lord answering the call.

Yet, it was the Lord who gave us the phone number to call in case of emergency in the first place.

I can agree with most of what you said. However, your analogy is not an absolute.

Rom_10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

What does that last phrase say? Notice the "SHALL" part.

I do agree that if you call the Doctor's office to get an an ambulance, you're dialing the wrong number.

 

[civic]

Like, calling for the Ambulance will get you saved.

We must call the Ambulance. But, the Ambulance driver first gave us the phone number to call.

Its a two way street. We must call for the One who saves!

When we call on the name of the Lord its a denouncement against Satan and his demons who wanted to make themselves to be our savior.
Calling on the name of the Lord is a slap in Satan's face, and God gets the glory.

Yes... we do something which opens the door for God to do all the work from that point on.

Romans 10:13 - whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Thayers
Hebraistically (like יְהוָה בְּשֵׁם קָרָא to call upon by pronouncing the name of Jehovah, Genesis 4:26; Genesis 12:8; 2 Kings 5:11, etc.; cf. Gesenius, Thesaurus, p. 1231{b} (or his Hebrew Lexicon, under the word קָרָא); an expression finding its explanation in the fact that prayers addressed to God ordinarily began with an invocation of the divine name: Psalm 3:2; Psalm 6:2; Psalm 7:2, etc.) ἐπικαλοῦμαι τό ὄνομα τοῦ κυρίου, I call upon (on my behalf) the name of the Lord, i. e. to invoke, adore, worship, the Lord, i. e. Christ: Acts 2:21 (from Joel 2:32 ()); ; Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2; τόν κύριον, Romans 10:12; 2 Timothy 2:22;

Strong's Concordance
epikaleó: to call upon
Original Word: ἐπικαλέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: epikaleó
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-kal-eh'-om-ahee)
Definition: to call upon
Usage: (a) I call (name) by a supplementary (additional, alternative) name, (b) mid: I call upon, appeal to, address

 

[GeneZ]

I can agree with most of what you said. However, your analogy is not an absolute.

Rom_10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

What does that last phrase say? Notice the "SHALL" part.

I do agree that if you call the Doctor's office to get an an ambulance, you're dialing the wrong number.

And, since the Lord fails at nothing he says he shall do?
You are saved when you call on the Lord.

 

[GeneZ]

Romans 10:13 - whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Thayers
Hebraistically (like יְהוָה בְּשֵׁם קָרָא to call upon by pronouncing the name of Jehovah, Genesis 4:26; Genesis 12:8; 2 Kings 5:11, etc.; cf. Gesenius, Thesaurus, p. 1231{b} (or his Hebrew Lexicon, under the word קָרָא); an expression finding its explanation in the fact that prayers addressed to God ordinarily began with an invocation of the divine name: Psalm 3:2; Psalm 6:2; Psalm 7:2, etc.) ἐπικαλοῦμαι τό ὄνομα τοῦ κυρίου, I call upon (on my behalf) the name of the Lord, i. e. to invoke, adore, worship, the Lord, i. e. Christ: Acts 2:21 (from Joel 2:32 ()); ; Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2; τόν κύριον, Romans 10:12; 2 Timothy 2:22;

Strong's Concordance
epikaleó: to call upon
Original Word: ἐπικαλέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: epikaleó
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee-kal-eh'-om-ahee)
Definition: to call upon
Usage: (a) I call (name) by a supplementary (additional, alternative) name, (b) mid: I call upon, appeal to, address

Here is a snippet from a lesson taught by my pastor.
I have been listening to his exegetical Romans series for the last two months.

For whoever will call on the name {onoma} of the Lord​

- maybe they will, maybe they will not {an} - will be saved {sozo}.​

​

{Note: 'An ' in a sentence means that the action of the verb is conditional. It is similar to a third class conditional "if".

Sozo is then in the indicative case- the case of NO DOUBT. If they do, they Will absolutely be saved.

Onoma here is a word used when you do not know much about the person you are addressing. And, here, salvation does not require much knowledge of Who and What the Lord is. You believe (here expressed as 'call on His name') and you are saved.}

grace and peace ......

 

[praise_yeshua]

And, since the Lord fails at nothing he says he shall do?
You are saved when you call on the Lord.

I will say that there just might be a gap between calling and the actual event. There is no doubt of the ultimate outcome when a person truly calls upon the Lord.

 

[GeneZ]

I will say that there just might be a gap between calling and the actual event. There is no doubt of the ultimate outcome when a person truly calls upon the Lord.

Wrong....

Isaiah 65:24

Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.


You keep seeing God as if He were like you.

I found out I was saved before I knew I was saved!


Isaiah 55:8

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,​

neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.​

We all have got keep growing in truth to better understand who and what God is!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Wrong....

Isaiah 65:24

Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.


You keep seeing God as if He were like you.

I found out I was saved before I knew I was saved!


Isaiah 55:8

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,​

neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.​

We all have got keep growing in truth to better understand who and what God is!

Why "ain't" you just so special. You believe everyone is just like you...

Why don't you quote Paul's experience on the road to Damascus as your own?

There is context to those verses you're quoting. Not everyone has exactly the same experience. Some take longer than others.

Might you consider these words...

Luk_10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

 

[GeneZ]

Why "ain't" you just so special. You believe everyone is just like you...

We are...

As far as His ways are not our ways? Yes.
As far as His thoughts are not ours? Yes.


But some are operating in their religious flesh.
They know Scripture to quote it to their advantage....
But they have yet to discover the advantage.

 

[praise_yeshua]

We are...

As far as His ways are not our ways? Yes.
As far as His thoughts are not ours? Yes.


But some are operating in their religious flesh.
They know Scripture to quote it to their advantage....
But they have yet to discover the advantage.

You're selectively quoting me.....

Sure. Your ways are not God's ways. His thoughts are not your thoughts..... Yet, you claim the opposite in following comments.....

Do you not see how self serving your use of such words are?

 

[GeneZ]

You're selectively quoting me.....

Sure. Your ways are not God's ways. His thoughts are not your thoughts..... Yet, you claim the opposite in following comments.....

Do you not see how self serving your use of such words are?

You are forgetting something?

That is why its imperative that we ARE to learn to know His thoughts and ways.
Isaiah 55 was a warning to not remain ignorant of God's Word.
For, the Word of God is the Mind (thinking) of Christ.
By God's grace we are to keep searching for sound doctrine.
Checking someone's words with Calvinism is not the answer.
Checking someone's words with Armenianism is a little better, but not enough.

Memorizing the opinions of Calvin is not the mind of Christ.
Arminianism was reaction to seeable error.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

 

[JonC]

His teachings were bad, but that's not at all what I was talking about.

I was talking about his overbearing harshness in punishments.

It was the whole religious system he was a part of:

The official acts of the [Geneva City] Council from 1541 to 1559 exhibit a dark chapter of censures, fines, imprisonments, and executions. During the ravages of the pestilence in 1545 more than twenty men and women were burnt alive for witchcraft, and a wicked conspiracy to spread the horrible disease. From 1542 to 1546 fifty-eight judgments of death and seventy-six decrees of banishments were passed. During the years 1558 and 1559 the cases of various punishments for all sorts of offenses amounted to four hundred and fourteen—a very large proportion for a population of 20,000.

(Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 8: § 107. The Exercise of Discipline in Geneva)

This sounds like it was the government, not Calvin.

 

[GeneZ]

This sounds like it was the government, not Calvin.

That sounds like a damage control- rationalization.
The religious rigidity and legalism in that day ran high.
Intolerance for differing views was high.

The culture they lived in assumed it to be a norm.
It was called the "Dark Ages" for a reason.