Why Calvinism is a bad thing.

[The Rogue Tomato]

"effort" is defined as a vigorous or determined attempt.

"effort" is work. Calling on the name of the Lord is NOT EFFORT.

Well, for one thing, many people call on the name of the Lord between the sheets all the time. Doesn't mean they get saved.

But, to your point, it's not about effort. If, while you are dead in sin, you play a part in your salvation (not possible, but just saying to make a point), then you have something about which to boast. You decided, and that other guy didn't. The credit for your decision goes to you. That other poor sucker chose poorly.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well, for one thing, many people call on the name of the Lord between the sheets all the time. Doesn't mean they get saved.

But, to your point, it's not about effort. If, while you are dead in sin, you play a part in your salvation (not possible, but just saying to make a point), then you have something about which to boast. You decided, and that other guy didn't. The credit for your decision goes to you. That other poor sucker chose poorly.

I understand your position.

In review, It is a fool that rejects God. So you must consider such when attempting to place merit upon a choice.

There is not value in a fool. Likewise, there is no value in choosing to accepting the efforts of Jesus Christ on our behalf. Boasting requires effort. Effort that Jesus Christ performed Himself. There is no boasting in such.

God's choices have merit. They are always good. They are always meaningful. Which is why God chose Jesus Christ. He is the elect of God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You are forgetting something?

That is why its imperative that we ARE to learn to know His thoughts and ways.
Isaiah 55 was a warning to not remain ignorant of God's Word.
For, the Word of God is the Mind (thinking) of Christ.
By God's grace we are to keep searching for sound doctrine.
Checking someone's words with Calvinism is not the answer.
Checking someone's words with Armenianism is a little better, but not enough.

Memorizing the opinions of Calvin is not the mind of Christ.
Arminianism was reaction to seeable error.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

I have never memorized Calvin.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That sounds like a damage control- rationalization.
The religious rigidity and legalism in that day ran high.
Intolerance for differing views was high.

The culture they lived in assumed it to be a norm.
It was called the "Dark Ages" for a reason.

The "Dark Ages" did not run into the 16th century. Not saying that Calvin wasn't superstitious.

 

[civic]

The "Dark Ages" did not run into the 16th century. Not saying that Calvin wasn't superstitious.

it is close and the time-line definitely influenced men like Luther who was born in 1483 and the dark ages ended in 1400.

 

[praise_yeshua]

it is close and the time-line definitely influenced men like Luther who was born in 1483 and the dark ages ended in 1400.

It is usually contrasted against the age of "Enlightenment" that generally considered to have started in the 17th century.

I've considered the dating to be inconsistent. I do agree that "superstition" still exists.....

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I understand your position.

In review, It is a fool that rejects God. So you must consider such when attempting to place merit upon a choice.

There is not value in a fool. Likewise, there is no value in choosing to accepting the efforts of Jesus Christ on our behalf. Boasting requires effort. Effort that Jesus Christ performed Himself. There is no boasting in such.

God's choices have merit. They are always good. They are always meaningful. Which is why God chose Jesus Christ. He is the elect of God.

This is the answer to my thread "what's the difference?" You are wise, and the other unsaved person is a fool.

Who made you wise? Surely not yourself. If it is God who made you wise enough to choose rightly but allowed the other to remain a fool, then that's not synergy.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This is the answer to my thread "what's the difference?" You are wise, and the other unsaved person is a fool.

Who made you wise? Surely not yourself. If it is God who made you wise enough to choose rightly but allowed the other to remain a fool, then that's not synergy.

Good question. Calvinism insists it is a direct work of regeneration that establishes the necessarily enlightenment to obtain salvation. Which then removes the individual of culpability in their actions. It places the onus solely upon God.

There are at least three sources of information that exists that are available to all of humanity.

1. The Gospel
2. Natural things.
3. Family, Friends, and The Body of Christ.

All of these work together to impart wisdom to man. Of course, man can ignore all of these and remain a fool. However, all of these sources can be either direct or indirect sources of enlightenment.

To be clear, none of the three I listed can take the place of God. Which is why I have long argued that Repentance is the last step in Order of Salvation.

 

[GeneZ]

I have never memorized Calvin.

Its never passed through your "TULIP's?"

 

[GeneZ]

it is close and the time-line definitely influenced men like Luther who was born in 1483 and the dark ages ended in 1400.

It was a cultural effect that did not end at zero 900 on a certain date....

If anything? The Reformation was the exodus from the dark ages. And, as we read in Exodus, many of the negative effects of Egypt was still staining the clothes of the Jews in the wilderness....

 

[praise_yeshua]

Its never passed through your "TULIP's?"

90 to 95 percent Total Depravity.
100 Unconditional Election. However, God chose His Son. THE Elect of God. The only individual that matters. My identity is in Him.
0 percent Limited Atonement
50 percent Irresistible Grace. 50 Percent for the Grace part.
100 Percent Perseverance of the Saints. However, it is not based upon my own merit nor accomplishments. I continually fail the test. God has promised to forgive me in Himself. Everything else is about our relationship to one another. That is an intimacy I share with all the family of God. However, sometimes we don't share it one another. I let God be God. He doesn't need my permission to love someone else. I expect Him to love others just as much as He loves me. I love that about Him.

 

[GeneZ]

90 to 95 percent Total Depravity.
100 Unconditional Election. However, God chose His Son. THE Elect of God. The only individual that matters. My identity is in Him.
0 percent Limited Atonement
50 percent Irresistible Grace. 50 Percent for the Grace part.
100 Percent Perseverance of the Saints. However, it is not based upon my own merit nor accomplishments. I continually fail the test. God has promised to forgive me in Himself. Everything else is about our relationship to one another. That is an intimacy I share with all the family of God. However, sometimes we don't share it one another. I let God be God. He doesn't need my permission to love someone else. I expect Him to love others just as much as He loves me. I love that about Him.

Never let someone's 'first guess' become your dogmatism.

Man without God's grace = 100% total depravity.

Man by God's grace does not remain total depravity when saved.

Total depravity is not doomed to be a permanent state, and is overcome by grace while God is drawing of all men.

The fact some reject the drawing? Is not to be chalked up to the sin nature.
For example: Lucifer was perfect up until the very moment he freely rejected the Lord.
It was not depravity that sealed Satan's fate. It was the free choice for "evil." Not, for sin.

Irresistible grace is not grace. That is a an oxymoron. Its coercion!

What ever Calvinists see as "perseverance of the saints" becomes contradicted by the following type of believer.

If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, ​

and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin ​

leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, ​

and there is sin not leading to death." 1 John 5:16-17​

Calvin was a theological pioneer!

Pioneers will make mistakes that those who follow after them are to make corrections with gained knowledge that the pioneer lacked.

Calvinists today who follow TULIP?
They remain stuck back in time in Calvin's ignorance.


grace and peace ................

 

[praise_yeshua]

Never let someone's 'first guess' become your dogmatism.

Man without God's grace = 100% total depravity.

God has been gracious to all men. Every single human being. Sinful Man is not 100 percent without Grace.

Irresistible grace is not grace. That is a an oxymoron.

I rejected Irresistable.

What ever Calvinists see as "perseverance of the saints" becomes contradicted by the following type of believer.

​

1 John 5:16-17

If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask,
and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin
leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin,
and there is sin not leading to death.

You're going to die. I suppose you'll commit a sin unto death one day. Think about it.... The way you're using this is very wrong. You condemn yourself.

Calvin was a pioneer.
Pioneers make mistakes that those who follow are to make corrections with gained knowledge that the pioneer lacked.
Calvinists today who follow TULIP? They are stuck in Calvin's ignorance.


grace and peace ................

Calvin is far too young to write what he wrote. He was far too prideful to never have claimed to have made a mistake.

Just a man like all of us.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

God has been gracious to all men. Every single human being. Sinful Man is not 100 percent without Grace.

I agree with that. It's not saving grace, but it's grace. Your next breath only happens due to God's grace. And it is common to all mankind, as it rains on the just and the unjust.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I agree with that. It's not saving grace, but it's grace. Your next breath only happens due to God's grace. And it is common to all mankind, as it rains on the just and the unjust.

We agree about many things. It is largely about how we construct the pieces of what we believe. We are building our houses. We can't lay any foundation other than Jesus Christ. We must start with Him. That is where I start.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

 

[JonC]

That sounds like a damage control- rationalization.
The religious rigidity and legalism in that day ran high.
Intolerance for differing views was high.

The culture they lived in assumed it to be a norm.
It was called the "Dark Ages" for a reason.

You have not made a clear point, this is vague.

 

[Dizerner]

This sounds like it was the government, not Calvin.

If he isn't resisting the system he's a part of, he's supporting it.

I'd like to see his writings that condemn such actions if you can show me.

Here are some direct quotes from Calvin:

In a letter addressed to William Farel and Peter Viret dated February 13, 1546, Calvin wrote: “If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight.” (page 291)

In a letter of August 20, 1553, one week after Servetus’ arrest, Calvin wrote: “I hope that Servetus will be condemned to death.” (page 292)

In 1561, Calvin wrote a letter to Marcus Paet, chamberlain to the king of Navarre, in which Calvin said: “Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard.” (page 292)

John Calvin’s Quotes regarding Michael Servetus

John Calvin’s Quotes regarding Michael Servetus Quotes from Standford Rives’ book “Did Calvin Murder Servetus?” pages 291-295 In a letter addressed to William Farel and Pete…

1timothy25.wordpress.com

 

[JonC]

If he isn't resisting the system he's a part of, he's supporting it.

I'd like to see his writings that condemn such actions if you can show me.

Here are some direct quotes from Calvin:

John Calvin’s Quotes regarding Michael Servetus

John Calvin’s Quotes regarding Michael Servetus Quotes from Standford Rives’ book “Did Calvin Murder Servetus?” pages 291-295 In a letter addressed to William Farel and Pete…

1timothy25.wordpress.com

what was the law in Geneva? was it lawful to be a heretic?

 

[Dizerner]

what was the law in Geneva? was it lawful to be a heretic?

What's Jesus' Law?

Is it lawful to turn the other cheek and do good to those who persecute you?

 

[atpollard]

What's Jesus' Law?

Is it lawful to turn the other cheek and do good to those who persecute you?

So it is the DUTY of every Christian to fight for Serial Killers to go free!
Right?