Who was the Book of John Addressed to?

[Red Baker]

This is so confusing RB.
All Christians believe that it is not our works that save us,

@GodsGrace

Greetings dear sister,

Some things in religion are confusing, (mainly folks that profess, I fully understand different teaching, and why) that I leave it in God's hands. I have close friends that I believe love and fear God, yet strongly disagree with me, not only concerning Soteriology, but on almost everything, from eschatology, church government, you name it they go the other way. Nevertheless, I just show them the kindness of God and we have no fellowship, and go our separate ways. And I submit to such scriptures as:

2 Timothy 2:19​

“Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

Even when I do not.

All Christians believe that it is not our works that save us,
but our faith in God.

I know too well, what they say, yet as soon as the words come out of their mouth, they will boldly and forcefully push salvation by their own works.

Fran, faith on man's part is a work, and if a work, then it had to be a work of the old man, "A.K.A" the flesh! That goes against just about every teaching in every NT book from Matthew to Revelation. That is another gospel that God Almighty has put a curse upon.

Romans 8:5-9~"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Fran, this is the word of the Living God, I did not write them, but, I do believe in each and every word herein and so must you. The flesh, or, the old man which is all the unregenerate sinner has to be a means of pleasing God, yet the scriptures clearly said to us, that the flesh/old man is not subject to the law of God, and neither indeed can be! Knowing this truth, pray to tell me just how a sinner can do anything as far as being born again, anything. To say that he can, is to call God a liar, for God's word has spoken and it is right before our eyes to see the truth. Why would any man be so bold to go against what is clearly written by the Spirit of the Living God truly amazes me, and still hear them say, they trust the word of God, when their opportunity to prove it, they fight against God's testimony of what he has written for our learning. That's the spirit of the man of sin working through such folks, who as children of God can see their strong delusion, especially so in light of such scriptures as Romans 8, etc.

I post tens of verses where we're told that WE ARE TO SEEK GOD.
SEEK....that comes before salvation.

Don't these conflicts mean anything?

Fran, it is called rightly dividing the word of truth. The sinner who is not first born of God, is seen in Romans 3; whereas, the many hundreds of scriptures teaching us to seek, etc., can only be applied to those already children of God, or, only those that are can truly heed what is being spoken. It is not that hard to separate and understand especially so when we adhere to the teaching of the depravity of man apart from the grace of God shown to the sinner. I read for devotion last night to the grandchildren:

John 2:25​

“And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.”

And it is not good, not even close!

Don't these conflicts mean anything?

Dear soul, they present no problem to me, and neither should they to you.

Nehemiah 8:8​

“So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.”

PS You know I left the CC about 40 years ago.
I read and I learned and I went where the road led me.
It's not easy to leave something you've known all your life
and the faith your family practices....but I went where the road
led me. It seems to be a good idea....

Praise be to the Lord! May God, who is gracious above all, be so to you precious friend. But, one question to my dear sister:

1st Corinthians 4:7​

“For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?”

Fran, it was the Lord that cause you to leave ~many never do, especially being so close to Rome as far as living where you do.. Amazing grace indeed to our sister!

 

[Red Baker]

This country was indeed founded upon the Judeo-Christian values; it was not founded upon any particular denomination of Christianity and certainly not on Calvinism even if Calvinists were among some of the early immigrants. The founding fathers worked very diligently to keep the Judeo-Christian values in and to keep any specific version of the Christendom out. That was and should be still the intent of "separation of church and state".

Jim, I think I know this better than you, even though I have great respect for your gift in many area, but in this you are wrong. I live on the east coast, and I have personal went to the first churches on the coast in S.C. and went through their history and without question many of them were Calvinist, of the Particular faith from England. Even all the way to Maine, and you can verify this yourself with time and much reading. I agree not founded per se on a particular faith, yet Calvinism reign in many churches in America. Abraham Lincoln was raised in the teachings of hard-shell Primitive Baptist, search and see for yourself.

Also, the Universities mentioned above and there are more, were started for the sole purpose of training minister (Calvinist) to teach the gospel. Search and see for yourself.

"to keep any specific version of the Christendom out"~ so wrong Jim, so wrong! of the early setters~they labored to keep Catholicism out, but they failed ~ because many of her daughter got a foot hold in, and opened the door for the whore to come~but, not in the south were my forefather lived. Catholicism was barely known or seen in the south mostly in the north. There was hardly a Catholic church in Winston-Salem where I was born, and even today not that many.

Through the faithfulness and obedience of Jesus Christ? Definitely! Through the faith of Jesus Christ? Absolutely not, simply because the very notion of the faith of Jesus Christ is anti-biblical. It is an affront Jesus Christ to even suggest that He had or needed faith in God; He is God; He is God the Son, the second person of the Trinity.

There are works and there are works of law. They are not the same. Believing is a necessary condition for salvation. Believing in God, i.e., faith in God, is a work. It is not a work of law. Unconditional salvation is also anti-biblical.

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Counted to him, i.e., Abraham, as righteousness is a statement of salvation.

Rom 4:23 But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It [righteousness] will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Counted to us who believe in Him, i.e., in God, who raised Jesus from the dead as righteousness is a statement of salvation. Our faith, our believing in God, is counted to us for righteousness. Counted to us for righteousness is a statement of our salvation. Believing in God is an absolute requirement for salvation. It is NOT unconditional!!

Coming back to make a separate post. You Jim are promoting another gospel, that can be seen even more so, when you add baptism to the five steps man must do before he is truly born again according to your gospel that you have come to embrace and teach.

Coming back after some meetings.

 

[Jim]

Jim, I think I know this better than you, even though I have great respect for your gift in many area, but in this you are wrong. I live on the east coast, and I have personal went to the first churches on the coast in S.C. and went through their history and without question many of them were Calvinist, of the Particular faith from England. Even all the way to Maine, and you can verify this yourself with time and much reading. I agree not founded per se on a particular faith, yet Calvinism reign in many churches in America. Abraham Lincoln was raised in the teachings of hard-shell Primitive Baptist, search and see for yourself.

Read the constitution, Red. There were indeed colonies of Calvinists, but that was not the basis for the founding of the country. Virginia, for instance, was largely constituted originally by the Church of England. The Pennsylvanian colonies were Quakers or Quaker-like.

And for what it is worth, it was your people, the Puritans [mostly Calvinistic} that waged war with the "witches" in New England. That was not a major source of thinking in the founding fathers.

 

[Red Baker]

Read the constitution, Red. There were indeed colonies of Calvinists, but that was not the basis for the founding of the country. Virginia, for instance, was largely constituted originally by the Church of England. The Pennsylvanian colonies were Quakers or Quaker-like.

And for what it is worth, it was your people, the Puritans [mostly Calvinistic} that waged war with the "witches" in New England. That was not a major source of thinking in the founding fathers.

@Jim

Not worth the fight Jim. But, will you at least confess that the Ivy schools were for the most part started by the Calvinist. For sure not by the Campbellites ~ baptismal regenerationist sect, a term you do not like, yet you should, because you truly believe and teach that water baptism is the means of being born again, and apart from that one is not, even though you may allow for exceptions, since it is hard to pinpoint folks like you to tell us plainly do you believe this or no. You said:

"Virginia, for instance, was largely constituted originally by the Church of England."
Articles of faith of the CoE:

XVII. Of Predestination and Election

Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.

As the godly consideration of Predestination, and our Election in Christ, is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh, and their earthly members, and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal Salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: So, for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God's Predestination, is a most dangerous downfal, whereby the Devil doth thrust them either into desperation, or into wretchlessness of most unclean living, no less perilous than desperation.

Furthermore, we must receive God's promises in such wise, as they be generally set forth to us in holy Scripture: and, in our doings, that Will of God is to be followed, which we have expressly declared unto us in the Word of God.

Read more: https://www.churchofengland.org/pra...esources/book-common-prayer/articles-religion

 

[Red Baker]

There are works and there are works of law. They are not the same. Believing is a necessary condition for salvation. Believing in God, i.e., faith in God, is a work. It is not a work of law.

"Works" refers to any actions a person performs that he/she has an active part in, due to a command to obey....while "the works of the law" refer specifically to an attempt to earn salvation by following a ceremonial and legal requirements of the Old Testament Mosaic Law, essentially believing that they must do so in order to secured their own justification by one's own deeds rather than looking to Christ alone as the only means of inheriting eternal life by him being made sin for them, that they might be made the righteousness of God through his blood. Truly it is impossible to separate the two, because both are having man doing works in order to be born again, saved from sin and condemnation. Neither one removes man from the equation of having any part of his salvation from sin and condemnation.

Believing is a necessary condition for salvation. Believing in God, i.e., faith in God, is a work.

Been over this so many times with you, for now I will only say this: It is impossible for our Adamic nature to have faith in spiritual truth, impossible. When Adam fell into sin, he lost God's image of wisdom, knowledge, and understanding that is absoultely necessary for one to have faith, without the new birth resurrecting the sinner from death to life in Jesus Christ. This take the same power that brought again from the dead the Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:19-2:1

It is not a work of law.

Jesus said that it was, so, I'll go with him, thank you very much!

Matthew 23:23​

“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”

1st John 3:23​

“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.”

Unconditional salvation is also anti-biblical.

What version of he word of God you are reading, if any?

Romans 11:5​

“Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”

If not of works, then it is unconditional. https://letgodbetrue.com/sermons/index/year-1987/seven-proofs-of-unconditional-salvation/

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."

Counted to him, i.e., Abraham, as righteousness is a statement of salvation.

Rom 4:23 But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It [righteousness] will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Counted to us who believe in Him, i.e., in God, who raised Jesus from the dead as righteousness is a statement of salvation. Our faith, our believing in God, is counted to us for righteousness. Counted to us for righteousness is a statement of our salvation. Believing in God is an absolute requirement for salvation. It is NOT unconditional!!

Coming back to make a separate post on this.

 

[MTMattie]

@Jim

Not worth the fight Jim. But, will you at least confess that the Ivy schools were for the most part started by the Calvinist. For sure not by the Campbellites ~ baptismal regenerationist sect, a term you do not like, yet you should, because you truly believe and teach that water baptism is the means of being born again, and apart from that one is not, even though you may allow for exceptions, since it is hard to pinpoint folks like you to tell us plainly do you believe this or no. You said:

"Virginia, for instance, was largely constituted originally by the Church of England."
Articles of faith of the CoE:

XVII. Of Predestination and Election

Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.

As the godly consideration of Predestination, and our Election in Christ, is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh, and their earthly members, and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal Salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: So, for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God's Predestination, is a most dangerous downfal, whereby the Devil doth thrust them either into desperation, or into wretchlessness of most unclean living, no less perilous than desperation.

Furthermore, we must receive God's promises in such wise, as they be generally set forth to us in holy Scripture: and, in our doings, that Will of God is to be followed, which we have expressly declared unto us in the Word of God.

Read more: https://www.churchofengland.org/pra...esources/book-common-prayer/articles-religion

General Question, please. If one is not of the "predestined" belief. Will that doom them to miss out on a heavenly eternity?

 

[Jim]

@Jim

Not worth the fight Jim. But, will you at least confess that the Ivy schools were for the most part started by the Calvinist. For sure not by the Campbellites ~ baptismal regenerationist sect, a term you do not like, yet you should, because you truly believe and teach that water baptism is the means of being born again,

No I do not teach baptismal regeneration. I have explained that to you so many times. But like so much of the truth of the Bible, you refuse to believe what it says.

you said:
"Virginia, for instance, was largely constituted originally by the Church of England."
Articles of faith of the CoE:

XVII. Of Predestination and Election

Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.

As the godly consideration of Predestination, and our Election in Christ, is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh, and their earthly members, and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal Salvation to be enjoyed through Christ, as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: So, for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God's Predestination, is a most dangerous downfal, whereby the Devil doth thrust them either into desperation, or into wretchlessness of most unclean living, no less perilous than desperation.

Furthermore, we must receive God's promises in such wise, as they be generally set forth to us in holy Scripture: and, in our doings, that Will of God is to be followed, which we have expressly declared unto us in the Word of God.

Read more: https://www.churchofengland.org/pra...esources/book-common-prayer/articles-religion

The Church of England was, at the time of the founding of the United States, very similar to the Roman Catholic Church without allegiance to Rome and the Papal functional establishment. But they were not Calvinist.

 

[Jim]

"Works" refers to any actions a person performs that he/she has an active part in, due to a command to obey....while "the works of the law" refer specifically to an attempt to earn salvation by following a ceremonial and legal requirements of the Old Testament Mosaic Law, essentially believing that they must do so in order to secured their own justification by one's own deeds rather than looking to Christ alone as the only means of inheriting eternal life by him being made sin for them, that they might be made the righteousness of God through his blood. Truly it is impossible to separate the two, because both are having man doing works in order to be born again, saved from sin and condemnation. Neither one removes man from the equation of having any part of his salvation from sin and condemnation.

None of that is Biblical truth. Paul never says that salvation is unconditional as you claim it to be. You simply refuse to understand what the apostles taught concerning the gospel of God. Both Peter and Paul spoke of what happens to those who fail to obey the Gospel (Rom 10:16; 2 Thess 1:8; 1 Pet 4:17). Obeying the gospel clearly indicates an active part without which there is no salvation. I am curious; have you obeyed the gospel? If so, how?

Been over this so many times with you, for now I will only say this: It is impossible for our Adamic nature to have faith in spiritual truth, impossible. When Adam fell into sin, he lost God's image of wisdom, knowledge, and understanding that is absoultely necessary for one to have faith

I would challenge you to find that in the scriptures.

 

[Red Baker]

No I do not teach baptismal regeneration. I have explained that to you so many times. But like so much of the truth of the Bible, you refuse to believe what it says.

So, are you now saying that water baptism is not when one is born again? Have you changed your teaching? If you beleive it is, then by definition you teach baptismal regeneration............dance around it if you are ashamed of what you truly have taught since I've known you, which you should be.

But they were not Calvinist.

Well Jim, read their articles of faith. I would not disagree that they have since jumped into the bed with the whore from Rome, but, at one time they truly taught Calvinism up until the late 1800's I've read most of J. C. Ryle's work who was a bishop in the CoE and shorty after Ryle they went down hill. He was to me, what Nicodemus was to the Jews of his day...not sure why he stay in the CoE, but he did, yet overall a very godly man and faithful to what he saw to be the truth. On his teachings concerning practical godliness, he was so good.

 

[Red Baker]

I would challenge you to find that in the scriptures

Is this a challenge? Jim, you should not be poking a bear, you just might get more than you bargain for..later I will answer you.... I'm going to lay down to get as much rest as I can in order to build my strength back up.

See you tomorrow Jim, with an answer.

 

[Red Baker]

Been over this so many times with you, for now I will only say this: It is impossible for our Adamic nature to have faith in spiritual truth, impossible. When Adam fell into sin, he lost God's image of wisdom, knowledge, and understanding that is absoultely necessary for one to have faith, without the new birth resurrecting the sinner from death to life in Jesus Christ. This take the same power that brought again from the dead the Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:19-2:1

@Jim

Here's the statement I made to you, concerning which, you said:

I would challenge you to find that in the scriptures.

Truly, the bottom line of all debates amongst Calvinism, high and low, and Armenianism, could be settled over this one question:

"Can a natural man, only having the sinful Adamic nature, which all are born with..... can such person see, know, understand, and beleive and love spiritual truth, using only the power of the nature he was born with?"

The testimony of God, is clear concerning this question. But, once scriptures are provided to folks to consider, their natural sinful intuition begins to reason, of course outside of the word of God, and whatever one puts before them, they will either try to interpret the scripture presented to means just about anything, other than what that particular scripture clearly is teaching. So let us search the scriptures and meet the challenge, as any good solider would do.

1st Corinthians 2:13-16

“Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”

Jim, every natural man thinks the things of God is pure foolishness ~ a natural man is a person who only has his one nature, the Adamic nature, which yesterday we proved that that nature is at enmity against God ~ and Jim, this is not a personal opinion of mine, but the very truth of God's word, you can receive it, or leave it, but you can never change this truth...it is supported by God's very own testimony, to corrupt it, would be a very dangerous thing to do on your part, but, man has no fear when it comes to protecting his bias agenda, nevertheless we still warn every man of the consequences of doing so.

Jim consider a few more thoughts before leaving this verse and there's many more. scriptures to consider.

True wisdom is far above and out of reach of natural men, who cannot understand it at all.​

A natural man, born only of the flesh, has no ability to recognize spiritual truth (John 3:3,6). Preaching of gospel truth cannot help a natural man at all, for he will reject the message. Paul has already established this point, but now we are exploring it in more detail (1:18). Without a new man and the presence of the Spirit of God, no man can understand the gospel. There is a violent animosity between the flesh and the things of the Spirit of God (Gal 5:17). There is violent inability for the flesh nature of man to agree with the spirit (Romans 8:7-8). Neither the Spirit nor any preacher can teach a natural man! He must make him spiritual first! Though the things of the gospel are glorious and terrible, natural men mock them as foolish. Though all and every human effort is made to convince them, they lack ability to learn. Man’s intellectual ability is very great, but his spiritual ability is brutish (Psalm 49:20). The defect is in his motives and affections – for he always hates God (Psalm 10:4; Gen 6:5).

The gospel is easy to men born again, yet there is no visible difference in their constitution.​

The spiritual man in this verse is contrasted with the natural man of the previous verse – it is a man born again by the Spirit of God, a called saint, a believer, as were the Corinthians. The judgment here is the same with discerning in the previous verse; it is not condemnation. A man with the Spirit of God can judge that the gospel is indeed truth and precious indeed. A born again man, with the Spirit of God in him, easily grasps and loves Christ’s gospel. Not every saint judges all things perfectly, but rather to the degree of his own illumination, and according to the amount of the gospel ministers have preached to him. Natural men have no clue to what governs, directs, instructs, and comforts the child of God. Natural men think the gospel is foolishness, and they think Christians are fanatics and fools. Though saints should be counted the noblest of men, natural men despise and resent them.

The things of God are far beyond human intelligence, but we have the mind of God in us.​

Paul quoted Isaiah’s rhetorical question in mocking the intelligence of natural man (Is 40:13). No natural man, regardless of intelligence or education, can know or instruct Jehovah at all. There is an infinite distance between the natural wisdom of man and God’s perfect wisdom. By the gracious ordination and regeneration of God, we have the mind of Christ by the Spirit. By the indwelling Spirit of Christ, we have an internal witness to the thoughts of Jehovah. Natural men do not have a clue of divine wisdom, but the saints have a great measure of it. A child of God walking in the Spirit has much glorious wisdom exceeding all natural men. How can we even grasp such a glorious thing? Let us be filled with His fullness (Eph 3:19)!

 

[Red Baker]

I read you are ill, wish you well.

@ProDeo

Thank you, very kind of you. Yes been down for around two weeks, seems as though I'm a little better, but at my age, it is just a matter of time, I have lived my life according to Psalm 90. I desire a few more years to see the younger grandchildren out and on their own, but we shall see what God wills for us. But, whatever he wills, I for sure want to spend my days left defending his word and teaching my own grandchildren to love and fear him for their peace, joy and happiness in this world.

 

[ProDeo]

@TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY

Let me make this very clear, I have never defended Calvinism, since within that system there many different folks, whose beliefs are different, very much so. Nevertheless, I will defend with all my might unconditional salvation that was secured for God's elect by Jesus Christ's faith and obedience, acting as their surety before the law of God ~ that I will defend and give my life for until the day I leave this world. I will and must defend a gospel that totally removes man from having any part of his salvation from sin and condemnation.

Taken from the WIKI -
Unconditional election (also called sovereign election or unconditional grace) is a Calvinist doctrine relating to predestination that describes the actions and motives of God prior to his creation of the world, when he predestined some people to receive salvation, the elect, and the rest he left to continue in their sins and receive the just punishment, eternal damnation, for their transgressions of God's law as outlined in the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. God made these choices according to his own purposes apart from any conditions or qualities related to those persons.

---

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.

Don't you see a problem here?

God is not telling that billions will end up in the Lake of Fire.

Surely we are missing something, even if your view is wrong.

 

[ProDeo]

@ProDeo

Thank you, very kind of you. Yes been down for around two weeks, seems as though I'm a little better, but at my age, it is just a matter of time, I have lived my life according to Psalm 90. I desire a few more years to see the younger grandchildren out and on their own, but we shall see what God wills for us. But, whatever he wills, I for sure want to spend my days left defending his word and teaching my own grandchildren to love and fear him for their peace, joy and happiness in this world.

Amen to that and Psalm 90 was a great read.

And about our temporarily time we are here, we go when it is His time, a comfortable thought.

 

[Red Baker]

Unconditional election (also called sovereign election or unconditional grace) is a Calvinist doctrine relating to predestination that describes the actions and motives of God prior to his creation of the world, when he predestined some people to receive salvation, the elect, and the rest he left to continue in their sins and receive the just punishment, eternal damnation, for their transgressions of God's law as outlined in the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. God made these choices according to his own purposes apart from any conditions or qualities related to those persons.

@ProDeo

That's very fair definition ~ the only drawn back would be that it is a Calvinistic doctrine, when the truth is, men like Luther taught the same and he was a few short years ahead of Calvin, being a contemporary of him even though they never met....and others before them taught the same, all the way back to Augustine ~ with a few unknown who taught the same in between.... the Waldenses, back around 1000 A.D.

But, I do understand how how it came to be known as Calvinism, because of Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion, where he orderly and systematically put forth the teaching of the Christian's faith, so, Calvinism was born in this sense, even though taught way before John Calvin.

 

[ProDeo]

@ProDeo

That's very fair definition ~ the only drawn back would be that it is a Calvinistic doctrine, when the truth is, men like Luther taught the same and he was a few short years ahead of Calvin, being a contemporary of him even though they never met....and others before them taught the same, all the way back to Augustine ~ with a few unknown who taught the same in between.... the Waldenses, back around 1000 A.D.

But, I do understand how how it came to be known as Calvinism, because of Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion, where he orderly and systematically put forth the teaching of the Christian's faith, so, Calvinism was born in this sense, even though taught way before John Calvin.

@Red Baker

Will you think about the question I raised (you snipped) regardless sovereign election or unconditional grace is true or not?

Does God incited us to produce reprobates ?

I find that hard to believe, but Gen 1:28 and Gen 9:1 imply so.

 

[Jim]

So, are you now saying that water baptism is not when one is born again? Have you changed your teaching? If you beleive it is, then by definition you teach baptismal regeneration............dance around it if you are ashamed of what you truly have taught since I've known you, which you should be.

No, I have not changed my teaching. Baptism is the occasion, the instant in the life of the repentant believer when God forgives his sins and gives him the gift of the Holy Spirit. But baptism is not the cause, the agent, or the means of either forgiveness or regeneration. There are those, for example, the RCC, who believe and teach baptismal regeneration, namely that Christian baptism is a sacrament wherein resides the power to forgive sins.

Well Jim, read their articles of faith. I would not disagree that they have since jumped into the bed with the whore from Rome, but, at one time they truly taught Calvinism up until the late 1800's I've read most of J. C. Ryle's work who was a bishop in the CoE and shorty after Ryle they went down hill. He was to me, what Nicodemus was to the Jews of his day...not sure why he stay in the CoE, but he did, yet overall a very godly man and faithful to what he saw to be the truth. On his teachings concerning practical godliness, he was so good.

None of that changes the fact that the founding fathers of the United States, worked very hard to keep any specific denomination or sect out of the constitution, while maintaining a decidedly basis on the fundamental Judeo-Christian values. That was the purpose of the "wall of separation between church and state", a term coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802.

 

[Red Baker]

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.

Don't you see a problem here?

God is not telling that billions will end up in the Lake of Fire.

Surely we are missing something, even if your view is wrong.

@ProDeo

I was not sure what you were attempting to say, but see very clearly why you quoted Genesis 1:28, and 9:1. Thanks for bringing this to my attentions.

Two things I would say:

1. God's command is a general and good principal for humanity to reproduce and to populate the earth.~ while the concept of "ordained destruction" refers to specific individuals who will face divine judgment due to their sin and rebellion against God's laws, when left to themselves ~ not a predetermined fate for all of humanity. God has never been under obligation to show mercy to any, and no fallen creature can even begin to question God's righteous works that he determined within the own counsel of His own will.

2. The same problem we would be face with by the very fact God "even created any to start with", knowing that God having infinite wisdom, knowing the end from the beginning, he knew what angels would do, when He left them to their own power, wisdom etc., much more man, would do....so, did this stop him from creating? No, the more so did this move him, so his power can be seen and known in so many different ways. It is clear we gain a deeper understanding of many of God's attributes like his holiness, justice, mercy, as these qualities are most clearly revealed in his plan of redemption through Jesus Christ in gospel, that we otherwise could have neve grasp.

Consider Israel coming out of Egypt~how God open up the red sea and allow Israel to pass through on dry land, and then overthrew the Egyptians who try to do the same as Israel did.

Exodus 15
"Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him. The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea. The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy. And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble. And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea. The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them. Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters. Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them. Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation. The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina. Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away. Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased." Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O LORD, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established. The LORD shall reign for ever and ever. For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea. And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances. And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

God's greatness will be seen even in the destruction of the wicked, and if men have a problem with that, then they have a problem believing the scriptures.

 

[Jim]

Been over this so many times with you, for now I will only say this: It is impossible for our Adamic nature to have faith in spiritual truth, impossible. When Adam fell into sin, he lost God's image of wisdom, knowledge, and understanding that is absoultely necessary for one to have faith, without the new birth resurrecting the sinner from death to life in Jesus Christ. This take the same power that brought again from the dead the Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1:19-2:1

Yes, you have been over this so many times with me and others. And every time you have been wrong. As a matter of fact, what does God say about Adam when he sinned in eating the forbidden fruit? God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil" (Gen 3:22). That is quite the opposite of your claim that he lost God's image of wisdom, knowledge and understanding. Actually, Adam lost none of that. After all what was the forbidden fruit? It was the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen 2:17). If anything, Adam's wisdom, knowledge and understanding was enhanced by the eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

What he lost was the close oneness with God. He became "dead in his trespasses and sins" just as we do when we sin and before being born again of water and Spirit. Dead in trespasses and sins is a condition of the spirit of a man. It is not a condition of the biological being of a man. A man's conscientious wisdom, knowledge and understanding is not destroyed by sin. The damage done by the sins of a man is to the spirit of a man. It separates man from God, spiritually not physically.

 

[Red Baker]

General Question, please. If one is not of the "predestined" belief. Will that doom them to miss out on a heavenly eternity?

@MTMattie

Let the word of God answer this for you.

Romans 8:28-34​

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”

Many will immediately after just quoting scriptures as I'm now doing, will rise up and say: I do not believe what you are saying, when all we have done so far is quote the word of God ~ that has happened so many times over the last fifty plus years of proclaiming God's testimony concerning his truth. I think you are one of the many.

​

In these scriptures one shall see the Spirit’s carefully chosen words say it is whom He foreknew, "not" what He foreknew.

What God foreknew about us was sinful rebellion, without exception (Ps 14:1-3; 53:1-3). He shall deny He ever knew the wicked – He never loved them (Matt 7:23; Ps 5:5; 11:5). He loved His elect from everlasting, and always shall (Jer 31:3; Eph 1:4; 5:25; Rev 13:8). God’s choice and love of the elect also predestinated them to adoption (see Eph 1:3-6).

Predestination, though hated and unpopular today, is a Bible doctrine we should and do love.

This Bible doctrine, which makes me a predestinarian Baptists, is here and in Eph 1:5,11. What does it mean? It means God determined and guaranteed our destination beforehand. There is no logical way to believe the God of the Bible and reject predestination of men. If God knows all that will happen on certain conditions, why did He bring them to pass? Arminians have God predestinating men to the lake of fire just as much as any doctrine of salvation.

Predestination precedes, rather than follows, conforming, for it is unconditional election! God’s purpose in creating the world and saving sinners is to build His family through Christ. God will do all that is necessary, which is considerable, to make sinners look like Jesus! Among the children of God, which He gave to Christ to save, Jesus will be preeminent! The drama of the whole universe is God’s display of saving grace in perfecting sinners! This references glorification rather than conversion, as scripture and experience prove, for we reject any doctrine of perseverance that guarantees practical sanctification. We shall be joint-heirs with Jesus as brothers, but He shall be the Firstborn (Col 1:15-18). We shall enjoy the fullest joy possible, as we will be glorified sons of God (Ist John 3:1-3). A day is coming, described here (8:17-25), when Jesus will own us as family (Heb 2:13). The basis and ground of the liberty of the sons of God is God’s predestination (8:29-30).

We shall stop and may come back and say more....