Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Doug Brents]

Hebrews is saying your throne oh God is forever. Not Jesus is forever. In Hebrews it's quoted referring to Jesus having the use of that throne.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Psalms 45:6
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

“Your throne is God.” Hebrews 1:8 is an almost exact quotation from the Septuagint version of Psalm 45:6, which itself was a very good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:6, and Hebrews 1:9 is from the Septuagint of Psalm 45:7. The theme of Hebrews 1 centers around the Father’s rule and elevation of the Son over the rest of creation. God spoke through the prophets, and then through His Son, who He appointed heir of all things and who is now seated at God’s right hand as second in command under God.

Yes, Heb is quoting Psalms, and that proves that Jesus, the Son, is in fact God. He is not "Using" God's throne, it is His OWN throne.

Jesus always was over all creation, because all of creation came through Him. None of the other prophets, or even angels, was called His Son. To whom is due worship other than God? Yet God commands us, and the angels, to worship the Son Jesus.

The God of the Son—anointed him and set him above his companions, such that the Son now sits on God’s right hand. Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalm 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. To see that fully, one must study Psalm 45. Upon examination, Psalm 45 does not support the Trinity, so when it is quoted in Hebrews 1:8 then that quotation does not support the Trinity either. The Jews read Psalm 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God.

So you are saying that the meaning of a prophecy cannot change? It cannot be reapplied? It cannot be clarified to give greater understanding? That is complete nonsense!

Consider the prophecy given in Hosea 11:1. When Hosea spoke these words, he was speaking of Israel being called out of Egypt in the Exodus. But when Matthew speaks these words, he is speaking of Jesus being called out of Egypt after the death of Herod. Does Matthew's reapplication of this prophecy negate Hosea's? No. But it does give greater insight into what the passage means. This is the same that we get from Heb 1:8 reinterpreting the meaning of Psalm 45. It gives us greater insight into what God is telling us.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, Heb is quoting Psalms, and that proves that Jesus, the Son, is in fact God. He is not "Using" God's throne, it is His OWN throne.

So the human king with a foreign queen, whose beauty was so great that he lusted after her, is God? No. The person in Psalm 45 is a regular human. Many commentators believe this entire chapter is about Solomon. Solomon is not God. Elohim can mean god, but in regards to Solomon he would be a god and not the God. Deity doesn't transfer from Psalm 45 to Hebrews 1.

Psalm 45
6Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,
and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

11and the king will desire your beauty;
bow to him, for he is your lord.

Jesus always was over all creation, because all of creation came through Him. None of the other prophets, or even angels, was called His Son. To whom is due worship other than God? Yet God commands us, and the angels, to worship the Son Jesus.

According to Colossians 1:15-18 Jesus is firstborn from among the dead not the Creator.

So you are saying that the meaning of a prophecy cannot change? It cannot be reapplied? It cannot be clarified to give greater understanding? That is complete nonsense!

Consider the prophecy given in Hosea 11:1. When Hosea spoke these words, he was speaking of Israel being called out of Egypt in the Exodus. But when Matthew speaks these words, he is speaking of Jesus being called out of Egypt after the death of Herod. Does Matthew's reapplication of this prophecy negate Hosea's? No. But it does give greater insight into what the passage means. This is the same that we get from Heb 1:8 reinterpreting the meaning of Psalm 45. It gives us greater insight into what God is telling us.

Hosea11:9 proves Jesus is not God.

9I will not execute the full fury of My anger;
I will not destroy Ephraim again.
For I am God and not man—
the Holy One among you—
and I will not come in wrath.

 

[Peterlag]

Yes, Heb is quoting Psalms, and that proves that Jesus, the Son, is in fact God. He is not "Using" God's throne, it is His OWN throne.

Jesus always was over all creation, because all of creation came through Him. None of the other prophets, or even angels, was called His Son. To whom is due worship other than God? Yet God commands us, and the angels, to worship the Son Jesus.

So you are saying that the meaning of a prophecy cannot change? It cannot be reapplied? It cannot be clarified to give greater understanding? That is complete nonsense!

Consider the prophecy given in Hosea 11:1. When Hosea spoke these words, he was speaking of Israel being called out of Egypt in the Exodus. But when Matthew speaks these words, he is speaking of Jesus being called out of Egypt after the death of Herod. Does Matthew's reapplication of this prophecy negate Hosea's? No. But it does give greater insight into what the passage means. This is the same that we get from Heb 1:8 reinterpreting the meaning of Psalm 45. It gives us greater insight into what God is telling us.

I cannot find one single biblical verse that clearly teaches that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. A teaching... a whole paragraph or chapter. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it. Trinitarians piece together statements that are scattered all over the Bible. They basically use bits and pieces of words and half verses along with their own human reasoning, imagination, speculation and assumptions as they pick one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here, and a clue there, and then they construct their "own God" which is the product of their own human thinking. This is why they cannot present one single biblical verse that clearly teaches that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

 

[Doug Brents]

So the human king with a foreign queen, whose beauty was so great that he lusted after her, is God? No. The person in Psalm 45 is a regular human. Many commentators believe this entire chapter is about Solomon. Solomon is not God. Elohim can mean god, but in regards to Solomon he would be a god and not the God. Deity doesn't transfer from Psalm 45 to Hebrews 1.

Psalm 45
6Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,
and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

11and the king will desire your beauty;
bow to him, for he is your lord.

Yes, Jesus desires His bride, the Church, like a man desires a beautiful woman to make her his wife. The Church is betrothed to Jesus like Mary was to Joseph when she was found pregnant with Jesus. Jesus has paid the bride-price for the Church, and is now in Heaven preparing our home so we can come and live with Him.

According to Colossians 1:15-18 Jesus is firstborn from among the dead not the Creator.

John 1:1-3, & 14 makes it very clear that Jesus is the Creator. There is NOTHING that has been created that was not created by Him; NOTHING.
Yes, Jesus is the first born from among the dead. But He is also the Creator. These two are not mutually exclusive.

Hosea11:9 proves Jesus is not God.

9I will not execute the full fury of My anger;
I will not destroy Ephraim again.
For I am God and not man—
the Holy One among you—
and I will not come in wrath.

God is not a man that He would change His mind. And God, at the time Hosea was written, had not yet taken human form (in Jesus).

 

[Doug Brents]

I cannot find one single biblical verse that clearly teaches that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

Then either you are not really reading the Scriptures, or your Bible has had some of the most important passages removed from it.

Nor has there ever been a teaching on it anywhere in the Bible. A teaching... a whole paragraph or chapter.

A teaching can be just two words. There is a massive amount of information we can gather from the shortest verse in the Bible. You don't have to have a "whole paragraph or chapter" to have a "teaching".

The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it.

You are right that in the OT, the concept of the trinity was never perceived. It is there when viewed through the lens of the NT, but the OT prophets and heroes of the faith never expressed the idea of the trinity. But it is very clear in the NT.

Trinitarians piece together statements that are scattered all over the Bible. They basically use bits and pieces of words and half verses along with their own human reasoning, imagination, speculation and assumptions as they pick one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here, and a clue there, and then they construct their "own God" which is the product of their own human thinking. This is why they cannot present one single biblical verse that clearly teaches that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

There are several verses and extensive passages that demonstrate, teach, and command us to worship Jesus as God. But these have been presented to you, and you refuse to accept them.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, Jesus desires His bride, the Church, like a man desires a beautiful woman to make her his wife. The Church is betrothed to Jesus like Mary was to Joseph when she was found pregnant with Jesus. Jesus has paid the bride-price for the Church, and is now in Heaven preparing our home so we can come and live with Him.

The one in Psalm 45 is described as a queen, not a bride. God or Jesus don't have a queen.

John 1:1-3, & 14 makes it very clear that Jesus is the Creator. There is NOTHING that has been created that was not created by Him; NOTHING.
Yes, Jesus is the first born from among the dead. But He is also the Creator. These two are not mutually exclusive.

There is no mention of Jesus in John 1:1-3. Jesus was created in John 1:14.

God is not a man that He would change His mind. And God, at the time Hosea was written, had not yet taken human form (in Jesus).

God does not have a human nature like Jesus.

 

[Doug Brents]

The one in Psalm 45 is described as a queen, not a bride. God or Jesus don't have a queen.

If God is the King, then His bride is a queen. The Church is God's bride. So the reference to His queen is also a reference to the Church.

There is no mention of Jesus in John 1:1-3. Jesus was created in John 1:14.

The Word in John 1:1-3 that created everything is the Word that became flesh and dwelt among men in John 1:14.

God does not have a human nature like Jesus.

Jesus, who was with God and was God (John 1:1), came down to Earth and took on a human form. That made Him a man, with a human nature, and all the human desires, feelings, urges, and thoughts.

 

[Runningman]

If God is the King, then His bride is a queen. The Church is God's bride. So the reference to His queen is also a reference to the Church.

The Word in John 1:1-3 that created everything is the Word that became flesh and dwelt among men in John 1:14.

Jesus, who was with God and was God (John 1:1), came down to Earth and took on a human form. That made Him a man, with a human nature, and all the human desires, feelings, urges, and thoughts.

Compared to God, Jesus is not the King. Jesus is the Prince. So your theory doesn't work.

Acts 5
31God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

 

[Doug Brents]

Comapred to God, Jesus is not the King. Jesus is the Prince. So your theory doesn't work.

Acts 5
31God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

Rev 17:14 and Rev 19:16 both say He is not only king, but King of Kings.
Prince in Acts 5 is Ἀρχηγὸν (Archēgon)
Acts 3:15 N-AMS
GRK: τὸν δὲ ἀρχηγὸν τῆς ζωῆς
NAS: but put to death the Prince of life,
KJV: And killed the Prince of life, whom
INT: moreover [the] Author of life

Acts 5:31 N-AMS
GRK: ὁ θεὸς ἀρχηγὸν καὶ σωτῆρα
NAS: to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior,
KJV: right hand [to be] a Prince and
INT: God Prince and Savior

Hebrews 2:10 N-AMS
GRK: ἀγαγόντα τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τῆς σωτηρίας
NAS: to perfect the author of their salvation
KJV: to make the captain of their
INT: having brought the author of the salvation

Hebrews 12:2 N-AMS
GRK: τῆς πίστεως ἀρχηγὸν καὶ τελειωτὴν
NAS: on Jesus, the author and perfecter
KJV: unto Jesus the author and finisher
INT: of faith author and perfecter

Prince as in the son of a king would be more in line with ἄρχων (archōn), as Satan was called in John 12:31.

 

[Runningman]

Rev 17:14 and Rev 19:16 both say He is not only king, but King of Kings.
Prince in Acts 5 is Ἀρχηγὸν (Archēgon)
Acts 3:15 N-AMS
GRK: τὸν δὲ ἀρχηγὸν τῆς ζωῆς
NAS: but put to death the Prince of life,
KJV: And killed the Prince of life, whom
INT: moreover [the] Author of life

Acts 5:31 N-AMS
GRK: ὁ θεὸς ἀρχηγὸν καὶ σωτῆρα
NAS: to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior,
KJV: right hand [to be] a Prince and
INT: God Prince and Savior

Hebrews 2:10 N-AMS
GRK: ἀγαγόντα τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τῆς σωτηρίας
NAS: to perfect the author of their salvation
KJV: to make the captain of their
INT: having brought the author of the salvation

Hebrews 12:2 N-AMS
GRK: τῆς πίστεως ἀρχηγὸν καὶ τελειωτὴν
NAS: on Jesus, the author and perfecter
KJV: unto Jesus the author and finisher
INT: of faith author and perfecter

Prince as in the son of a king would be more in line with ἄρχων (archōn), as Satan was called in John 12:31.

But Jesus isn't a co-ruling king with God in accordance with Jesus is not God. He also is not eternal, inherently immortal, or invisible.

1 Timothy 1
17Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

 

[Doug Brents]

But Jesus isn't a co-ruling king with God in accordance with Jesus is not God. He also is not eternal, inherently immortal, or invisible.

1 Timothy 1
17Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Jesus is not separate and apart from the Father. Jesus was with God and was God when everything was created (He could not have been created, because He created everything (nothing was created that He did not create, so He could not create Himself), thus He is eternal). He is also King. Which means that even though He came down and took on a form that was visible, He is still the eternal, immortal, invisible God.

 

[Peterlag]

Then either you are not really reading the Scriptures, or your Bible has had some of the most important passages removed from it.

A teaching can be just two words. There is a massive amount of information we can gather from the shortest verse in the Bible. You don't have to have a "whole paragraph or chapter" to have a "teaching".

You are right that in the OT, the concept of the trinity was never perceived. It is there when viewed through the lens of the NT, but the OT prophets and heroes of the faith never expressed the idea of the trinity. But it is very clear in the NT.

There are several verses and extensive passages that demonstrate, teach, and command us to worship Jesus as God. But these have been presented to you, and you refuse to accept them.

Then either you are not really reading the Scriptures,

Oh this is great. You read the Scriptures better than I do. Fantastic!!! Please do show me the verse that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

 

[Doug Brents]

Then either you are not really reading the Scriptures,

Oh this is great. You read the Scriptures better than I do. Fantastic!!! Please do show me the verse that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

Many of us have already shown you these passages. But at the risk of throwing God's pearls before swine, I will attempt it one last time.
Isa 9:6 - The prophecy of a child being born who would be God.
John 1:1-3, 14 - Jesus is God, is eternal, created everything that was created and became a man who lived on Earth.
John 8:58 - Jesus is eternal, existed before Abraham, and Abraham longed to see the day of Jesus.
John 10:30 - Jesus says He and the Father are ONE. If Jesus were not God, it would have been a sin for Jesus to accept being called "God".
John 20:28 - Thomas calls Jesus "God" and is not rebuked by Jesus. If Jesus were not God, it would have been a sin for Jesus to accept being called "God".
Heb 1:8 - the Father calls Jesus "God".
Col 2:9 - In Jesus the fullness of deity dwells.
Titus 2:13 - Jesus is called "our God and savior".
Rev 1:8 - Jesus is the "Alpha and Omega", a title of God.
2 Pet 1:1 - Jesus is our "God and Savior".

These are not vague, ambiguous, "pieced together", or hidden. They are very clear statements of the deity of Christ Jesus. If you deny these, then you must deny Scripture, and deny salvation through Him. As John says,
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and now it is already in the world." (1 John 4:1-3)

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is not separate and apart from the Father. Jesus was with God and was God when everything was created (He could not have been created, because He created everything (nothing was created that He did not create, so He could not create Himself), thus He is eternal). He is also King. Which means that even though He came down and took on a form that was visible, He is still the eternal, immortal, invisible God.

Jesus is not invisible, sir, nor the King. Remember, when God brings Jesus back, every eye will see Jesus, but God will remain invisible. No one has visually seen God, not even Jesus. Jesus is the king of the Jews, but he isn't a King alongside God. The relationship between God, Jesus, and the church hierarchial.

 

[Doug Brents]

Jesus is not invisible, sir, nor the King. Remember, when God brings Jesus back, every eye will see Jesus, but God will remain invisible.

1 John 3:2 - when Jesus returns, we will see the Father because we will be like Him.

No one has visually seen God, not even Jesus.

John 6:46 - No one has seen the Father EXCEPT the Son (who has seen Him).

Jesus is the king of the Jews, but he isn't a King alongside God. The relationship between God, Jesus, and the church hierarchial.

Jesus is King of Kings. He is one with the Father, and shares the title with the Father. Jesus subordinated Himself below the Father in order to become a man, but He was equal with the Father before He left Heaven, and will be/has been elevated back to equality with the Father.

 

[Runningman]

1 John 3:2 - when Jesus returns, we will see the Father because we will be like Him.

Seeing Jesus, yes. Seeing God, no.

1 John 3
2Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.

John 6:46 - No one has seen the Father EXCEPT the Son (who has seen Him).

The Bible says no one has ever seen God (John 1:18) and makes no mention of Jesus seeing in the visual sense. Jesus understands and explains who God is, just like he said of the disciples in John 14.

John 14
7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

Jesus is King of Kings. He is one with the Father, and shares the title with the Father. Jesus subordinated Himself below the Father in order to become a man, but He was equal with the Father before He left Heaven, and will be/has been elevated back to equality with the Father.

Compared to God, not at all.

This is still here:

Acts 5
31God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

Additonally, Scripture proves that Jesus is not the "King of kings and Lord of lords" because Jesus is not the "blessed and only Sovereign One" according to Paul.

1 Timothy 6
14Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which the blessed and only Sovereign One—the King of kings and Lord of lords—will bring about in His own time. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

 

[Doug Brents]

Seeing Jesus, yes. Seeing God, no.

1 John 3
2Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.

The Bible says no one has ever seen God (John 1:18) and makes no mention of Jesus seeing in the visual sense. Jesus understands and explains who God is, just like he said of the disciples in John 14.

John 14
7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

Compared to God, not at all.

This is still here:

Acts 5
31God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

Additonally, Scripture proves that Jesus is not the "King of kings and Lord of lords" because Jesus is not the "blessed and only Sovereign One" according to Paul.

1 Timothy 6
14Keep this commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which the blessed and only Sovereign One—the King of kings and Lord of lords—will bring about in His own time. 16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Your blasphemy is noted, for the spirit of antichrist is alive and well in you. Just as Satan perverted the Scripture when he tempted Jesus, so you pervert Scripture to deny Christ.

 

[Runningman]

Your blasphemy is noted, for the spirit of antichrist is alive and well in you. Just as Satan perverted the Scripture when he tempted Jesus, so you pervert Scripture to deny Christ.

Means you don't have a scriptural rebuttal and can't defend your beliefs with the Bible, but I can.

 

[Doug Brents]

Means you don't have a scriptural rebuttal and can't defend your beliefs with the Bible, but I can.

I already have, but you ignore Scripture. Jesus is God (John 1:1-3, 14). Jesus has seen God (John 6:46). Jesus is the King of Kings (Rev 19:16). You can find all kinds of verses that will help you explain all this away, but it doesn't change the facts.

 

[Runningman]

I already have, but you ignore Scripture. Jesus is God (John 1:1-3, 14). Jesus has seen God (John 6:46). Jesus is the King of Kings (Rev 19:16). You can find all kinds of verses that will help you explain all this away, but it doesn't change the facts.

I replied to all of those and your reply was you feel I committed blasphemy and denied Jesus. Your false accusations mean nothing to me. Are you going to reply to the Scriptural answers I gave you or just be upset about them?