When Grace is not Grace

The Rogue Tomato

Well-known member
"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -- God grants you faith, though you do not deserve it.

"This is the work God requires, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -- I did the work you required, now you owe me some salvation. Gimme.
 
Geesh.....

You present a "salvation" that is required of Christ because "God chose you".....

Talk about the absence of Grace.

Does God owe you the death of Christ or not?

Give things a little more thought next time before you make such claims.
 
"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Now lets look at the verse before the one you are trying to use to deceive..

28 Then they.. THE JEWS..... asked him, “What must we do to do the WORKS God requires?”


So, we see that its THEIR WORKS that John is defining... as they ask Him about what THEY are to DO.

So, the paraphase is......."Listen Jews, this is the work that God has, according to your IDEA .... God wants you to BELIEVE in Jesus"..

Why?

Because God's hope for humanity is that ALL would believe in the One who was sent for us ALL.

Not all will, but those who DO, God will save.
 
Now lets look at the verse before the one you are trying to use to deceive..

28 Then they.. THE JEWS..... asked him, “What must we do to do the WORKS God requires?”


So, we see that its THEIR WORKS that John is defining... as they ask Him about what THEY are to DO.

So, the paraphase is......."Listen Jews, this is the work that God has, according to your IDEA .... God wants you to BELIEVE in Jesus"..

Why?

Because God's hope for humanity is that ALL would believe in the One who was sent for us ALL.

Not all will, but those who DO, God will save.

Yes, Jesus is legally required to answer them with the kind of answer they expected. It's the law.
 
Yes, Jesus is legally required to answer them with the kind of answer they expected. It's the law.

And notice that Jesus has not died for them on the Cross yet.

And notice that when Jesus is dealing with "the House of Israel", and they are Legalists... He answers them regarding what they can understand.

Now, if He was talking to you, "in the Time of the Gentiles".... He would say......

"Go to John 3:16".
 
"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -- God grants you faith, though you do not deserve it.

"This is the work God requires, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -- I did the work you required, now you owe me some salvation. Gimme.

As has been already pointed out to you, the immediate context shows us a question being asked and the question being answered.

Hermeneutically, we have nothing to suggest that the answer to the question was intended to sidestep the question itself and say something different, as your interpretation suggests. So it begs the question of why you would look for something other than a direct answer without contextual evidence to suggest it?

The straightforward, logical explanation that the question, “what are the works that God requires?”, is answered by “the work of God” is “that you believe in the one he has sent”, and requires nothing outside of the context to arrive at this conclusion. The implication of the “(this is) the work of God (required)” is a natural understanding in the context of the question posed.

Secondly, you err logically by suggesting that to fulfill the requirement of God means that God owes us simply because we did something. It does not follow that fulfilling the obligation necessarily means God is obligated because of that action, nor that we deserve or have the right to claim God “owes” us now. Merit is never the question, only trust/faith/belief that God will do what he promised, thus, “Abraham believed, and God counted it as righteousness.” God is obligated to himself, not because we’ve earned it, but because God who made the promise cannot lie!


Being Sovereign, God is only obligated to himself- that is nothing outside of himself, ie, us or our actions, can obligate God to do anything.

This is where Paul’s exposition in Romans 4 regarding the promise of God predating the law and Abram’s faith gives insight! God made a promise to Abram, which means God obligates himself to keep it else he becomes a liar.

It doesn’t mean the one believing that God will do what he says is deserving of anything, nor is it our action that forces God into a corner to do something contrary to his desires.

Doug
 
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Now lets look at the verse before the one you are trying to use to deceive..

28 Then they.. THE JEWS..... asked him, “What must we do to do the WORKS God requires?”


So, we see that its THEIR WORKS that John is defining... as they ask Him about what THEY are to DO.

So, the paraphase is......."Listen Jews, this is the work that God has, according to your IDEA .... God wants you to BELIEVE in Jesus"..

Why?

Because God's hope for humanity is that ALL would believe in the One who was sent for us ALL.

Not all will, but those who DO, God will save.
To decieve? Are you questioning his motives?
 
"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -- God grants you faith, though you do not deserve it.

"This is the work God requires, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -- I did the work you required, now you owe me some salvation. Gimme.
Amen: http://www.sovereignredeemerbooks.com/assets/pdf/john-simpson/the-perfection-of-justification.pdf
, God’s design in justifying a sinner, as hath been formally proved, is the magnifying of his own free love unto the creature in Christ; and therefore he doth acquaint us, that faith is the free gift of his grace, that so he may divest the creature of glorying in himself or in anything from himself. If the Father should justify us by grace through faith, and we should apprehend that our faith were of ourselves, there should be some glorying in ourselves. And therefore he doth justify by grace, through faith, as a fruit, effect and free gift of his own grace. So proud we are naturally, that though we were convinced that we were saved by grace, as a gift given unto us, {as alms unto a beggar,} yet we would be proud, if we knew that of ourselves we had a hand to receive it, and therefore God doth not only in his grace give us the gift of eternal life, but the hand by which we receive it. Thus we are saved by grace through faith, which is the gift of God.
 
Grace is not Grace when we teach that Grace is overcome by mans will, for instance scripture declares that we who truly believe, believe because of Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

Apollos decided to travel through Achaia. So the Lord's followers wrote letters, encouraging the followers there to welcome him. After Apollos arrived in Achaia, he was a great help to everyone who had put their faith in the Lord Jesus because of God's gift of undeserved grace. CEV

27 Now Apollos wanted to go to the country of Southern Greece. So the believers helped him and wrote a letter to the followers there, asking them to accept him. These followers had believed in Jesus because of God’s grace, and when Apollos arrived, he helped them very much. NCV


Now its no doubt about it, Grace comes from a infinite source, the Lord Jesus Christ Jn 1:16

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Rom 5 21

That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


Mans will is from at best a finite source, and flesh,

But yet, the unlearned say that Gods Grace is successfully resisted and overcome by the finite source of mans will, so the infinite source is overcome and defeated of its purpose by the finite source, since all men will not believe because of Grace, though it was Gods will that they do.

Friends thats when Grace is not Grace ! The power of the finite creature overcomes the power of Infinite Grace
 
Grace is not Grace when we teach that those whom the Father Draws Jn 6:44 or the Son Draws after being lifted up for them on that Tree for their sins, that though being drawn, some will not come to believe in Christ in a conversion experience, then Grace is not Grace because its power was overcome by finite strength not to come and believe. The drawing is nothing short of the Infinite Power of Gods Grace, the word draw helkó:

I drag, draw, pull, persuade/cause to believe, unsheathe.

metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

That inward, not external, but inward power is the Grace of God reigning !

It also means:

I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all,

If all Christ draws to Him isnt won over to Him to be His followers, Infinite Grace was overcome by finite man, finite devil, finite flesh
 
Grace is not Grace when we teach that those whom the Father Draws Jn 6:44 or the Son Draws after being lifted up for them on that Tree for their sins, that though being drawn, some will not come to believe in Christ in a conversion experience, then Grace is not Grace because its power was overcome by finite strength not to come and believe. The drawing is nothing short of the Infinite Power of Gods Grace, the word draw helkó:

I drag, draw, pull, persuade/cause to believe, unsheathe.

metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

That inward, not external, but inward power is the Grace of God reigning !

It also means:

I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all,

If all Christ draws to Him isnt won over to Him to be His followers, Infinite Grace was overcome by finite man, finite devil, finite flesh
That is an absurd argument

Grace is grace whether accepted or not

but this is irrelevant to the meaning of Helko

your copied definition

metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

is fairly accurate and shows the metaphorical meaning differs from the literal meaning

Jeremiah 31:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: Therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Helko is the word the septuagint uses

Jeremiah 38:3 (Logos LXX) — 3 κύριος πόρρωθεν ὤφθη αὐτῷ Ἀγάπησιν αἰωνίαν ἠγάπησά σε, διὰ τοῦτο εἵλκυσά σε εἰς οἰκτίρημα.

though led by, drawn by, God Israel was unfaithful


In John 6:44

John 6:44 (KJV 1900) — 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The drawing (helko) is by means of instruction

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Those who listen and learn come

that is a condition of the coming

BTW that is the fulfillment of a prophesy from Isa

Isaiah 54:1–13 (KJV 1900) — 1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; Break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: For more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. 2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, And let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: Spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes; 3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; And thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, And make the desolate cities to be inhabited. 4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: Neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: For thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, And shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more. 5 For thy Maker is thine husband; The LORD of hosts is his name; And thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, And a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; But with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; But with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, Saith the LORD thy Redeemer. 9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: For as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; So have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. 10 For the mountains shall depart, And the hills be removed; But my kindness shall not depart from thee, Neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, Saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. 11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, Behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, And lay thy foundations with sapphires. 12 And I will make thy windows of agates, And thy gates of carbuncles, And all thy borders of pleasant stones. 13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; And great shall be the peace of thy children.

Sing, O barren. That is, shout for joy, lift up the voice of exultation and praise. The ‘barren’ here denotes the church of God under the Old Testament, confined within the narrow limits of the Jewish nation, and still more so in respect to the very small number of true believers, and which seemed sometimes to be deserted of God, her husband (Lowth). It is here represented under the image of a female who had been destitute of children, and who now has occasion to rejoice on the reconciliation of her husband (ver. 6; Lowth), and on the accession of the Gentiles to her family. The Chaldee renders it, ‘Rejoice, O Jerusalem, who hast been as a sterile woman that did not bear.’ The church is often in the Bible compared to a female, and the connection between God and his people is often compared with that between husband and wife (comp. Isa. 62:5; Ezek. 16; Rev. 21:2–9; 22:17).11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the Old Testament: Isaiah (vol. 2; London: Blackie & Son, 1851), 287–288.


There is nothing there supporting unconditional election or irresistible grace
 
That is an absurd argument

Grace is grace whether accepted or not

but this is irrelevant to the meaning of Helko

your copied definition

metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

is fairly accurate and shows the metaphorical meaning differs from the literal meaning

Jeremiah 31:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: Therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Helko is the word the septuagint uses

Jeremiah 38:3 (Logos LXX) — 3 κύριος πόρρωθεν ὤφθη αὐτῷ Ἀγάπησιν αἰωνίαν ἠγάπησά σε, διὰ τοῦτο εἵλκυσά σε εἰς οἰκτίρημα.

though led by, drawn by, God Israel was unfaithful


In John 6:44

John 6:44 (KJV 1900) — 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The drawing (helko) is by means of instruction

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Those who listen and learn come

that is a condition of the coming

BTW that is the fulfillment of a prophesy from Isa

Isaiah 54:1–13 (KJV 1900) — 1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; Break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: For more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. 2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, And let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: Spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes; 3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; And thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, And make the desolate cities to be inhabited. 4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: Neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: For thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, And shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more. 5 For thy Maker is thine husband; The LORD of hosts is his name; And thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, And a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; But with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; But with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, Saith the LORD thy Redeemer. 9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: For as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; So have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. 10 For the mountains shall depart, And the hills be removed; But my kindness shall not depart from thee, Neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, Saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. 11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, Behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, And lay thy foundations with sapphires. 12 And I will make thy windows of agates, And thy gates of carbuncles, And all thy borders of pleasant stones. 13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; And great shall be the peace of thy children.

Sing, O barren. That is, shout for joy, lift up the voice of exultation and praise. The ‘barren’ here denotes the church of God under the Old Testament, confined within the narrow limits of the Jewish nation, and still more so in respect to the very small number of true believers, and which seemed sometimes to be deserted of God, her husband (Lowth). It is here represented under the image of a female who had been destitute of children, and who now has occasion to rejoice on the reconciliation of her husband (ver. 6; Lowth), and on the accession of the Gentiles to her family. The Chaldee renders it, ‘Rejoice, O Jerusalem, who hast been as a sterile woman that did not bear.’ The church is often in the Bible compared to a female, and the connection between God and his people is often compared with that between husband and wife (comp. Isa. 62:5; Ezek. 16; Rev. 21:2–9; 22:17).11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the Old Testament: Isaiah (vol. 2; London: Blackie & Son, 1851), 287–288.


There is nothing there supporting unconditional election or irresistible grace
Grace is not Grace when we teach that those whom the Father Draws Jn 6:44 or the Son Draws after being lifted up for them on that Tree for their sins, that though being drawn, some will not come to believe in Christ in a conversion experience, then Grace is not Grace because its power was overcome by finite strength not to come and believe. The drawing is nothing short of the Infinite Power of Gods Grace, the word draw helkó:

I drag, draw, pull, persuade/cause to believe, unsheathe.

metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

That inward, not external, but inward power is the Grace of God reigning !

It also means:

I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all,

If all Christ draws to Him isnt won over to Him to be His followers, Infinite Grace was overcome by finite man, finite devil, finite flesh
 
Grace is not Grace when we teach that those whom the Father Draws Jn 6:44 or the Son Draws after being lifted up for them on that Tree for their sins, that though being drawn, some will not come to believe in Christ in a conversion experience, then Grace is not Grace because its power was overcome by finite strength not to come and believe. The drawing is nothing short of the Infinite Power of Gods Grace, the word draw helkó:

I drag, draw, pull, persuade/cause to believe, unsheathe.

metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

That inward, not external, but inward power is the Grace of God reigning !

It also means:

I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all,

If all Christ draws to Him isnt won over to Him to be His followers, Infinite Grace was overcome by finite man, finite devil, finite flesh
Did the Father draw the 12 disciples and give them to Jesus ? yes or no
 
Grace is not Grace when we teach that those whom the Father Draws Jn 6:44 or the Son Draws after being lifted up for them on that Tree for their sins, that though being drawn, some will not come to believe in Christ in a conversion experience, then Grace is not Grace because its power was overcome by finite strength not to come and believe. The drawing is nothing short of the Infinite Power of Gods Grace, the word draw helkó:

I drag, draw, pull, persuade/cause to believe, unsheathe.

metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

That inward, not external, but inward power is the Grace of God reigning !

It also means:

I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all,

If all Christ draws to Him isnt won over to Him to be His followers, Infinite Grace was overcome by finite man, finite devil, finite flesh
You failed to address anything posted by way of rebuttal

That is an absurd argument

Grace is grace whether accepted or not

but this is irrelevant to the meaning of Helko

your copied definition

metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

is fairly accurate and shows the metaphorical meaning differs from the literal meaning

Jeremiah 31:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: Therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Helko is the word the septuagint uses

Jeremiah 38:3 (Logos LXX) — 3 κύριος πόρρωθεν ὤφθη αὐτῷ Ἀγάπησιν αἰωνίαν ἠγάπησά σε, διὰ τοῦτο εἵλκυσά σε εἰς οἰκτίρημα.

though led by, drawn by, God Israel was unfaithful


In John 6:44

John 6:44 (KJV 1900) — 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The drawing (helko) is by means of instruction

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Those who listen and learn come

that is a condition of the coming

BTW that is the fulfillment of a prophesy from Isa

Isaiah 54:1–13 (KJV 1900) — 1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; Break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: For more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. 2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, And let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: Spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes; 3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; And thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, And make the desolate cities to be inhabited. 4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: Neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: For thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, And shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more. 5 For thy Maker is thine husband; The LORD of hosts is his name; And thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, And a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; But with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; But with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, Saith the LORD thy Redeemer. 9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: For as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; So have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. 10 For the mountains shall depart, And the hills be removed; But my kindness shall not depart from thee, Neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, Saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. 11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, Behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, And lay thy foundations with sapphires. 12 And I will make thy windows of agates, And thy gates of carbuncles, And all thy borders of pleasant stones. 13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; And great shall be the peace of thy children.

Sing, O barren. That is, shout for joy, lift up the voice of exultation and praise. The ‘barren’ here denotes the church of God under the Old Testament, confined within the narrow limits of the Jewish nation, and still more so in respect to the very small number of true believers, and which seemed sometimes to be deserted of God, her husband (Lowth). It is here represented under the image of a female who had been destitute of children, and who now has occasion to rejoice on the reconciliation of her husband (ver. 6; Lowth), and on the accession of the Gentiles to her family. The Chaldee renders it, ‘Rejoice, O Jerusalem, who hast been as a sterile woman that did not bear.’ The church is often in the Bible compared to a female, and the connection between God and his people is often compared with that between husband and wife (comp. Isa. 62:5; Ezek. 16; Rev. 21:2–9; 22:17).11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the Old Testament: Isaiah (vol. 2; London: Blackie & Son, 1851), 287–288.


There is nothing there supporting unconditional election or irresistible grace
 
What were his motives? Quote him

I dont quote devil's.
I'll leave that to you.

But i will explain this devil's one ERROR that led to the rest of the Theology.

Calvin misunderstood "God's Foreknowledge".

In his mind, In Calvin's mind, he decided that that phrase means..>"God caused everything"

And that phrases only means that God KNOWS everything, and He knows it before it Happens.

So, CALVIN redefined "Knowing" as "Causing" and that is why His entire theology denies God's Grace, and rejects the Cross.
 
I dont quote devil's.
I'll leave that to you.

But i will explain this devil's one ERROR that led to the rest of the Theology.

Calvin misunderstood "God's Foreknowledge".

In his mind, In Calvin's mind, he decided that that phrase means..>"God caused everything"

And that phrases only means that God KNOWS everything, and He knows it before it Happens.

So, CALVIN redefined "Knowing" as "Causing" and that is why His entire theology denies God's Grace, and rejects the Cross.
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