I did not disagree with the statements in Scripture, but spoke in regard to how they should be understood.
What is the New Covenant?
- Thread starter civic
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If God freed the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free, which completely undermines how you are interpreting Galatians 4:21-31. Moreover, the Mosaic Law came through the line of the free woman, which again undermines your interpretation. In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us into bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.
The Mosaic Covenant is eternal (Exodus 31:14-17, Leviticus 24:8), so the only way that it can be replaced by the New Covenant is if the New Covenant does everything that it does plus more, which is what it means to make something obsolete (Hebrews 8:13). This is why the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31, Hebrews 8:10), plus it is based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6). In Galatians 3:16-19, a newer covenant does not nullify the promises of a covenant that has already been ratified, so again the New Covenant does not nullify our need to obey the Torah.
All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), so none of them will ever change. The way to testify about God's righteousness is straightforwardly based on His righteousness, not on a particular covenant, and God's righteousness is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to testify about His righteousness are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under. The only way that we should cease to follow eternal laws for how to testify about God's eternal righteousness would be if God were to cease to be eternally righteous, and the same is true for other aspects of God's nature.
Christ did not establish the New Covenant until the end of his ministry, which means that everything that he taught prior to that point was in regard to how to live under the Mosaic Covenant, and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33). The fact that the Mosaic Law is profitable for teaching, correction, reproof, training in righteousness, and equipping us to do every good work means that we should voluntarily submit to its governance even if God weren't sovereign and we weren't already under His governance.
Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and following him is not just for Jews, but for Gentiles too.I’m a gentile so I know I’m not
101G
Well-known member
the new Covenant is for all peoples. and is not to keep the law for it has been fulfilled in Christ Jesus. so, Who is for the NEW COVENANT? Good reading, one can start here,
Isaiah 56:1 "Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed." Isaiah 56:2 "Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil." Isaiah 56:3 "Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree." Isaiah 56:4 "For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;" Isaiah 56:5 "Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off." (ONE MIGHT WANT TO READ THAT AGAIN). Isaiah 56:6 "Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;"
a NAME better than of sons and daughters. (yes, adoptive vs Born again). Philippians 2:9 "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:" BAM! Revelation 3:12 "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." BAM...... BAM, BAM......... Berean Apologetics Ministry BAM!
101G.
Isaiah 56:1 "Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed." Isaiah 56:2 "Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil." Isaiah 56:3 "Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree." Isaiah 56:4 "For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;" Isaiah 56:5 "Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off." (ONE MIGHT WANT TO READ THAT AGAIN). Isaiah 56:6 "Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;"
a NAME better than of sons and daughters. (yes, adoptive vs Born again). Philippians 2:9 "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:" BAM! Revelation 3:12 "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." BAM...... BAM, BAM......... Berean Apologetics Ministry BAM!
101G.
civic
Well-known member
101G
Well-known member
101G
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
I know when tv was great haha
On Jeremiah 31:31-33, the New Covenant was only made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah and in involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts. To fulfill the law means "to cause God's will (as made known through His law) to be obeyed as it should be (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law by spending his ministry teaching how to correctly obey it by word and by example.
Indeed, Gentiles are welcome to become part of Israel by joining themselves to the Lord through submitting to His law. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to the Mosaic Law are not born again.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
No, you are conflating two types of bondage. They were freed from physical bondage in Egypt, but were still in spiritual bondage to sin, as has been all of humanity until Christ died.
Read Gal 4:21-31 again. It is very clear that the New Covenant is equated to the free woman, and the Old Covenant to the slave woman. It is very clear that it is allegorical, not literal, and that even though the Law of Moses came through the children of the free woman, the promise was not to those children, but to the one child, Jesus. The Law of Moses is not the Old Covenant, but a part of it. The Old Covenant goes far back before the Law was given, all the way back to Abraham, and even to Adam.
No, the Mosaic Covenant is not eternal. The command to keep the sabbath is the only thing mentioned in these passages, and it is only for the children of Israel. Yet, Col 2:16-17 says that the sabbath is only a shadow of the real thing that was to come, namely Christ. So then, keeping Christ is keeping the sabbath.
And this is exactly what Christ did. He took the shadows (the Old Covenant) and replaced them with the real thing (Himself).
Indeed it does nullify our need to obey torah. Jesus, in His life, death, and resurrection, accomplished all of the Old Covenant and fulfilled all of the requirements of it for both God and man. In doing so, He brought it to an end and established the New Covenant in His own blood as the real in place of the shadow.
God has changed His instructions to His people many times. We do not worship the same way the Jews did (in the Temple in Jerusalem any) more, and they did not worship as Abraham did, and he did not worship as Noah or Adam did. For when the woman at the well said, "Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and yet you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Believe Me, woman, that a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, because salvation is from the Jews. 23 But a time is coming, and even now has arrived, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
Wrong. Everything He taught was built on the Old Covenant, for that was the foundation of the New, but His instruction was how to live in the New Covenant. He established the New Covenant at the end of His ministry because the New Covenant was established "in His blood", which was not shed until His death at the end of His ministry.
What part of the Torah tells us not to even hate our neighbor? None. The Torah tells us not to murder, yet Jesus said not even to hate because when we hate we commit murder in our heart. The law of the New Testament is not the Law of Moses or the rules of the Old Covenant, but the words of Jesus that go far beyond the Law.
No, we are not subject to the Law in any way, because if we were subject to any part of it, we would then be subject to it all. It is not a piecemeal arrangement. Remember, James said in 2:10 that if we keep the whole Law but fail in a single point, we are guilty of breaking the whole.
101G
Well-known member
first thanks for the reply, second, the Lord Made a covenant with the "HOUSE" of Israel, and the "HOUSE" of Judah... not TRIBS. a house consists of the stranger who come under this house roof, here now as before. Isaiah 14:1 "For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob." FOR ABRAHAM WAS A "STRANGER" IN THE LAND GOD GAVE HIM, AS WELL AS JACOB. Genesis 17:8 "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." ....... Genesis 36:6 "And Esau took his wives, and his sons, and his daughters, and all the persons of his house, and his cattle, and all his beasts, and all his substance, which he had got in the land of Canaan; and went into the country from the face of his brother Jacob." Genesis 36:7 "For their riches were more than that they might dwell together; and the land wherein they were strangers could not bear them because of their cattle."
now, Genesis 37:1 "And Jacob dwelt in the land wherein his father was a stranger, in the land of Canaan."
so the question comes to mind, by definition ... "WHO REALLY IS A STRANGER?"
101G.
It refers to a temporary resident.
101G
Well-known member
and has you or any Israelite has found permeant resident in any land yet? even as we speak now?
101G.
I was afraid you wouldn't answer my question. Even though I asked kindly that you would.
In the religious philosophy of the RCC and her protestant daughters, this is taught. But I'm actually interested in what the scriptures say. Paul said there was LAW "ADDED" because of transgressions, 430 years after Abraham, which was to be in place "Till the seed should come".
God's creation and teaching of animals that were created for food, and animals that were created for some other purpose was known even before Abraham. And God preserved this teaching through the Flood. It seems that God wanted His people before Moses to understand the same thing as he wanted after Moses.
Gen. 7: 1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. 2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
Lev. 11: 47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.
So it is clear that this LAW is not one that was "ADDED" because of Transgressions.
No, it never changed. The Temple was always supposed to be in our mind, and men we always supposed to obey God. That is certainly not a LAW that was "ADDED" because of Transgressions "Till the Seed should come". Abraham certainly knew where and how to worship God.
Yes, we have always had a mediator, (Sons of Levi) but this mediator changed. This was part of the Priesthood.
Yes, this is part of the Priesthood.
No, our perception and understanding of the Promised Land changed, but it was always the Kingdom of God.
This was also part of the priesthood that changed.
That is what some religions promote. But God told you what Covenant HE was changing. And it wasn't the Covenant He gave to Abraham, Israel broke that Covenant with the Golden calf. It was the covenant HE made with Israel "Because" they broke the Covenant of Abraham HE gave them. You can read this for yourself. It's the believing part that men struggle with.
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
So scripturally you are wrong to say;
I mean, in this world's religions this may be taught, but not by God or His Word.
Well, when a man separates this one sentence from the rest of the Bible, it can maybe be twisted to fit the narrative being promoted here. But when a man considers what Paul was actually teaching, this narrative become exposed as less than accurate.
2 Tim. 3: 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Here is the Part men must exclude from their teaching, in order for the philosophy you are promoting to stand, regarding the Holy scriptures.
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Truly Paul and Jesus are on the same Page. "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Not the Covenant of this world's religions, but the Covenant defined by the God who made it.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I used to believe that the animals were made clean and unclean from creation. But this is not accurate. Look at Gen 9:3 - "Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I have given everything to you, as I gave the green plant."
That does not exclude ANYTHING from being food. All plants and all animals may now be eaten. The animals were not segmented into clean and unclean for eating purposes until Sinai.
All of the Law of Moses was the Law that was added to the Covenant that had been made with Abraham.
Deut 12:5 - "But you shall seek the Lord at the place which the Lord your God will choose from all your tribes, to establish His name there for His dwelling, and you shall come there."
Um, no. The sacrifice was done "BY" the priesthood. But the sheep, goats, doves, grain, oil, etc were not part of the priesthood.
Sorry, but the Israelites were given the Land at the far end of the Med as their "Land", but the NT promised land is spiritual and not of this world.
If you want to see it that way, but not really. Each individual in Israel was not able to come into the presence of God directly. We are. They had to go to the priests. We are priests, and because of our status as the priesthood, we have the ability and privilege of going directly to God.
Jesus was the fulfillment of the covenant made with Adam (and Eve and the serpent) when He said, "And of your offspring and her Descendant; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise Him on the heel." (Gen 3:15) The covenant God made with Abraham was a renewal of that covenant, for it is through Abraham that the Descendant of Eve would come. This covenant was renewed with Isaac and Jacob. And then the covenant was renewed with Moses as God brought Israel out of Egypt. Then the Law was given at Sinai, and this, the culmination of the Old Covenant, was what was fulfilled and removed by Christ as stated in Gal 4.
Look over to Gal 5:2-6.
"Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who has himself circumcised, that he is obligated to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we, through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love."
If you seek to keep even one part of the Law (even a part of it that was part of the Old Covenant as far back as Abraham), then you are not able to benefit from the life Jesus offers through His death. You cannot have both the Law and Christ. You must choose: life in Christ or full and complete obedience to EVERY command given in the Law.
101G
Well-known member
GINOLJC, to all
the NT is in full force. and those who do not accept it is in a state of ... A Limbo. and B. near destruction, and C. yes, NOT his People.
when the Lord Jesus gave his blood on the cross, that ENDED the OLD COVENANT.
101G
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Very true. The New Covenant was established in Jesus' blood as depicted in the Last Supper (Passover), and has been in full effect since Jesus' death on the cross. There is no Scripture that says, depicts, indicates, or in any other way hints that the New Covenant was put in abeyance in any way for any time.
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