brightfame52
Active Member
No it's not. What is relevant is the word of God and not the feelings of men
What is the New Covenant?
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
- Start date
FreeInChrist
Active Member
you are not going to understand because you belive opposite from me... but I shall try.
Ai says....This suggests that through God's grace, Gentiles (non-Jews) have been included in His blessings, represented by the olive tree, while those who have fallen away (like some of the Israelites) may not return unless they believe. It emphasizes the importance of faith and God's mercy in the process of salvation.
Romans 11: 11-31 Berean Standard Bible
The Ingrafting of the Gentiles
11 I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. @brightfame52 .. Do you understand the meaning of this simple scripture?It means that if the chosen (make no mistake for they were) had not fallen you and I would not be here discussing this today. Jesus was "sent" (by His Father) for the lost lambs of Israel.... Jesus sent the 12 out to preach and teach theJJews... and to avoid the gentiles and Samaritans....If you just could get this truth living in your mind all else is far easier to understand>
12 But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! @brightfame52 " and their failure means riches for the Gentiles" For if they had no failure
we would not be doing this today.
13 I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
14 in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. @brightfame52 In otherwords... they were looking for a way to bring some of those sheep home.
15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? @brightfame52 if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world,. Again, if they had followed God as sthey should have with all that he had done for them... we would not be here today. We only are because they rejected God.
16 If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, @brightfame52 ... this is where we... who were considered wild..were grafted in
18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” @brightfame52 .. WE WERE grafted in because branches were broken off.
20 That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid
@ brightfame... . It was their unbelief that allowed us to be grafted in. but be afraid.... is a warning
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either. @brightfame52 .. if we do not
keep vigilant in our faith we too will be gone
22 Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part hascome to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
27 And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs.
29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.
30 Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience,
31 so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.
brightfame52
Active Member
In the promise to save Israel in Isa 45:17 Gentiles are included in that Israel, it's not the ethnic nation of Israel in view here. It's the Church the Body of Christ
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Wick Stick
Active Member
Which answer are you thinking of? Scholars have several competing theories, and the orthodox Jewish answer doesn't correspond to any of them.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Every point of Hebrew history is relevant to the Hebrews and to God. It's their lives. How can a Gentile tell Israel what is relevant to Israel? How arrogant.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
You're a Gentile. You have no say in Hebrew/Jewish matters. Nor can you judge what is good for Israel and what is not. The arrogance sometimes of some people.
That's like a Muslim telling an American what they should be concerned with or what is important to Americans. It doesn't work that way for Americans and it doesn't work that was for the Jews. There is only ONE truth of God. Many applications, but ONE truth to every passage of Scripture. And for being Gentile you seem to think you can tell the Jews what is relevant and important to Israel and what is not?
brightfame52
Active Member
Jewish feeling means nothing, it's God word which stand
Wick Stick
Active Member
Was this reply for me or someone else? It doesn't seem connected to the conversation we were having, or the question I asked.
I'm kind of thinking it was intended for brightfame52?
jeremiah1five
Active Member
God's Word which stands?
Why can't you apply that to the fact that there is no salvation covenant in the Old Testament Word of God between the God of Abraham and non-Hebrew Gentiles?
Hmmmm?
jeremiah1five
Active Member
It's for every non-Hebrew Gentile.
brightfame52
Active Member
The New Covenant promises to Israel includes Gentiles Eph 2-3 that is the Mystery
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Finally I agree with something you say
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@brightfame52
Read about God's word.
Whether you want to acknowledge this... and you will not I know, we all know....
Jesus was born to a Jewish girl by the name of Mary and he was raised by Jewish Joseph, who many refer to as Jesus' adopted father. Both Mary and Joseph had lineages.. (blood lines) going back to Jewish David. (Matthew emphasizes Jesus' royal descent through David's son Solomon, while Luke traces it through David's son Nathan.)
This is important because
As a requirement for Jesus' bloodline to trace back to David is rooted in several passages from the Hebrew Bible, which prophesy that the Messiah would be a descendant of David. This is emphasized in the New Testament, particularly in the genealogies found in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, which establish Jesus' lineage from David to affirm his messianic title.
According to Jewish tradition, the genealogy of King David can be traced back to Adam through various biblical figures.
(Do the research, I am not doing homework for anyone)
So since we have From Adam forward through David to Jesus... Surly you see the importance of the Jewish people in His bloodline. From going forward from Adam... it begins.
Jesus as a boy, merely 12 years old was teaching in a Jewish temple....Jesus celebrated Jewish feasts and the very week he was
crucified was a Passover week and the Last Supper many historians call it a Passover meal.
Jesus was baptized by Jewish John the Baptist and when in his ministry 3was underway Matt 15:24 says But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
He was sent by his Father. God....
The term "lost sheep" is a metaphor for the people of Israel, who were often described as sheep without a shepherd (Ezekiel 34:5-6, Matthew 9:36). This imagery is used to convey the spiritual state of Israel, who had strayed from God's ways.
This surly should firm up in your mind if you had any doubt that they are God's chosen. They have not been replaced.
There are so many versus that say this but lets strt with the easiest to understand
Exodus 19:5
Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;
Deuteronomy 14:2
For you are a holy people to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
1 Kings 8:53
For You have separated them from all the peoples of the earth as Your inheritance, as You spoke through Moses Your servant, when You brought our fathers forth from Egypt, O Lord God.”
1 Kings 10:9
Blessed be the Lord your God who delighted in you to set you on the throne of Israel; because the Lord loved Israel forever, therefore He made you king, to do justice and righteousness.”
Psalm 105:8-15
He has remembered His covenant forever,
The word which He commanded to a thousand generations,
The covenant which He made with Abraham,
And His oath to Isaac.
Then He confirmed it to Jacob for a statute,
To Israel as an everlasting covenant,
I'll stop before I run out of posting room.
And then we have our Lord Jesus instructing his 12 disciples "of the twelve tribes of Israel"/ Israelites.
Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
So we have Jesus sending the message still to the lost sheep.
I wonder if you are still reading or have even gotten this far......??????????????????????????????????????????????/
The first of His instructions is to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt 10:5-8). Does this command imply Jesus only came to the Jewish people? Jesus tells them to not even go to Gentile or Samaritan villages, although the Jewish disciples of Jesus would certainly not have considered entering either a Gentile or Samaritan town.
When asked by a Gentile woman to heal her daughter, Jesus states it is not right to give food for the children to dogs. In Matthew 15:24 Jesus repeats the words from 10:6, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel” (cf., Mark 7:24-30 which does not have the lost sheep line).
James and John want to call fire down from heaven to destroy a Samaritan village for refusing to receive Jesus (Luke 9:54). Even though Jesus speaks with a Samaritan woman, his disciples are surprised he is talking to the woman (4:27).
Even as late as Acts 10 Peter is reluctant to preach the Gospel of the God-fearer Cornelius and he is criticized when he returns to Jerusalem (11:1-3). James is still suspicious of Paul’s gentile mission in Acts 21:17-26.
It is therefore not surprising Jesus tells his disciples to only go to the Jews. The announcement that the Kingdom of God is near, and Jesus is the Messiah would have little meaning for a Samaritan and less for a Gentile. Mike Wilkins asks why Jesus would bother with the command if the disciples were not likely to go to the Gentiles anyway. For Wilkins, the prohibition dispels any doubts about whether Jesus was really the messiah. This is “Israel’s opportunity” and later they will be responsible for their rejection of the Messiah (Matthew, 390).
Is this restriction retracted in the Great Commission? Perhaps. But in the Book of Acts the initial mission was to still to the Jews in Jerusalem (Acts 2-7) first. There is suspicion of Philip’s mission in Samaria (Acts 8) and of Peter’s mission to Cornelius (Acts 10). Even in Acts 21 it does not seem like James is operating under the Great Commission; he is not reaching out to Samaritans or Gentiles (and probably not Hellenistic Jews). John Nolland argues Matthew did not consider the Great Commission as a “replacement of the mission to Israel with a mission to the Gentiles,” Jesus’s disciples are to continue their mission to Israel after the resurrection (Matthew, 429).
Who are the lost sheep of the house of Israel? The “lost sheep of the house of Israel” alludes to Jeremiah 50:6 and evokes the long exile of Israel. Just prior to the final destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of God’s people among the nations, God describes the people as “lost sheep,” ignored by their shepherds and harassed by the nations. Remember Matthew has just described the Jewish crowds as “sheep without a shepherd” (9:36). As the messiah, Jesus is the good shepherd sending his working into the world to care for the lost sheep.
The twelve are to proclaim the same message as Jesus, “the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17). Although repentance is not specifically mentioned in 10:6-7, Jesus condemns the villages of Galilee because they did not repent after seeing his miracles (11:20-24). The disciples are to do the same messianic signs as Jesus in Matthew 8-9 (heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons).
fr. https://readingacts.com/2021/03/10/...ciples-to-not-go-to-the-gentiles-matthew-105/
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If you have any doubts about the importance if the Isrealite to God, and they were and still are his chose consider this.
Romans 11:11 Says I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Wick Stick
Active Member
That's sort of complicated.
On the one hand, my mother was clearly not Jewish, so I'm not Jewish by the modern definition.
On my Dad's side... my surname suggests I ought to be numbered among the Kohanim. If one were to use a patriarchal approach rather than matrilineal, I probably ought to be numbered as a Hebrew.
Culturally, if that even matters, I'm more Christian than Jewish. But I do have a connection to the Jewish community. The next Seder I attend won't be my first.
All that notwithstanding... as I see it, neither the patriarchal nor the matrilineal reckoning of 'who-is-a-Jew' is correct. I follow Jesus' teaching in this regard, which is that Abraham's descendants are correctly determined by looking at behavior. Abraham's descendants behave like Abraham - they believe like Abraham. (John chapters 6-8)
And most importantly, they get adopted to Abraham. Baptism is required for proselytes because an adoption is required for salvation (though most Christian churches seem to have lost sight of that).
Salvation is for Israel. Gentiles participate by becoming part of Israel; not apart from it.
Yes, they did - but for only a short time. It was "necessary" for the gospel to be "first" preached to ethnic Israelites (Acts 13:46-47). These were the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" which Christ said He was sent to during His earthly ministry. This was done in order to fulfill the final 70th week when the covenant was confirmed with many of Daniel's people - up to the end of that 70th week which ended in AD 37. That was the year when God gave Paul that vision in the Jerusalem temple, telling him, "Depart, for I will send thee far hence to the Gentiles." (Acts 22:21).
That temple vision for Paul was the end of the 70 "weeks" (490 years) of the Daniel 9 prophecy. The ethnic Israelites had a believing elect "remnant" in that first century that got on board with the New Covenant (as Isaiah had predicted only a remnant would do so), but the rest were broken off in their unbelief. God planned to shatter the power of the holy people in that first-century generation (Dan. 12:7). Just as Isaiah 65:15 predicted, God would slay them, and call His servants by another name.
There are no longer any national subdivisions in the "One fold" with its "One Shepherd". To say otherwise is classic racism and "respect of persons" which is not to exist under the New Covenant in Christ's blood.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Thank you for the history on this 3Rs.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yeah, but when it comes to salvation, ethnicity, means nothing as qualifying for salvation, in fact its condemned. Jesus condemned it, John the Baptist condemned it, Paul condemned it, calling it dung when it comes to Salvation and Righteousnes. Listen to Paul Phil 3:4-4
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
See, when it comes to basing spiritual matters, salvation, righteousness and etc on race, its confidence and trust in the flesh, which is Idolatry and dung.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Good for you.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
There was the "letter of the Law", and there is the "spirit of the Law."
But the covenant of salvation IS a covenant based upon biology. The whole subject of having an heir point directly to Abraham asking for an heir. As soon as the conversation centered on Abraham having an heir through his loins, the Abraham Covenant became biological. It's been that way, and it will end that way.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins
Matthew 1:21.
"His people" are identified as the twelve tribes/sons of Jacob/Israel.
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