What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?

What is your response to the Apostle Paul saying that the Rapture only occurs AFTER His Coming and the Resurrection?
A Rightly Divided Eschatology

Justin Johnson
Postmillennialists look at prophecy and say things will get better and better in the world. Premillennialists look at prophecy and say things will get worse and worse in the world.

One sees prophecy being fulfilled by bringing in the kingdom. We are responsible to change the world.

The other sees prophecy being fulfilled in times of trouble, and we should guard ourselves from the world.

Both are looking in the wrong place to see what God is doing in the world.

Prophecy does not describe this mystery dispensation. The events of prophecy do not describe the end of this dispensation, but the end of Israel’s.

One sees the prophetic cup and says it is half full.
The other sees the prophetic cup and says it is half empty.


According to Pauline right division we are not drinking from that prophetic cup. We are looking up where our life is hid with Christ according to the mystery (Col 3:1-3).

How We View the Future

While students of prophecy argue back and forth about which current event was God sent, we understand that God is not fulfilling prophecy in our present circumstances.

What will happen in Israel’s prophetic program in the future has no affect on our present ministry, circumstances, or salvation.

The greatest eschatological division is not where you put yourself in the millennium, or when you think the rapture will happen.

The greatest division to make about the end times is between Prophecy and Mystery.

When prophecy speaks of the kingdom come, we know according to the mystery of Christ that it is not our duty to bring in God’s kingdom to the earth.

When prophecy speaks of the trouble to come before the end, we know according to the mystery of Christ that we have no divine instruction to run to the hills.

Our view of the future is not driven by prophecy, but by the instructions of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery (Rom 16:25, Col 1:25-27).

Our hope does not come from the current events of postmillennialism, nor do we need prophetic disasters to give us warning.

We have families to feed, souls to save, and jobs to perform. We respond to the future with the Bible rightly divided, faithfully doing these tasks as long as God’s grace will last.

“And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;” – 1 Thess 4:11
Determining our Eschatology

Often people start with an eschatological (end times) position and then build their doctrines of the church, salvation, and ministry from there. This is exactly backwards.

It should be our doctrine of the church, salvation, and ministry that determines our view of the end times.

When we rightly divide Prophecy from Mystery there is only one relationship to prophecy we can take: prophecy does not describe the present time in which we live, whether it be for the better or the worse.

The millennium, tribulation, restoration of Israel are all parts of God’s prophetic purpose for his chosen nation and not the church. They describe the end times spoken about in prophecy.

The pretribulational premillennial non-prophetic imminent return of Christ is seen as a weak position. It is only weak from the position that does not recognize the difference between Prophecy and Mystery.

A failure to rightly divide Prophecy from Mystery will end up with a failed eschatology.

Not in the End Times

We are not living in the times of prophecy, but in a mystery dispensation. Therefore, we are not living in the end times.

We will not go through the millennium; we are not looking for Israel’s tribulation; nor are we looking for Israel’s restoration.

Instead we operate according to the mystery of Christ, doing our ministry as ambassadors and waiting for the mystery coming of the Lord to remove the church so that he can fulfill his prophecy and promises with Israel.

These are not the prophetic last days for us. Every day is a new day of opportunity to be God’s grace ambassadors in a world that has rejected him. For the sake of ministering the gospel, we should hope there are a million more days.

Our hope is in his appearing sometime in the future, unknown to us (Titus 2:13). Til then, we have work to do.

--or spend some time in the desert.
Johann.
 
A Rightly Divided Eschatology

Justin Johnson
Postmillennialists look at prophecy and say things will get better and better in the world. Premillennialists look at prophecy and say things will get worse and worse in the world.

One sees prophecy being fulfilled by bringing in the kingdom. We are responsible to change the world.

The other sees prophecy being fulfilled in times of trouble, and we should guard ourselves from the world.

Both are looking in the wrong place to see what God is doing in the world.

Prophecy does not describe this mystery dispensation. The events of prophecy do not describe the end of this dispensation, but the end of Israel’s.

One sees the prophetic cup and says it is half full.
The other sees the prophetic cup and says it is half empty.


According to Pauline right division we are not drinking from that prophetic cup. We are looking up where our life is hid with Christ according to the mystery (Col 3:1-3).

How We View the Future

While students of prophecy argue back and forth about which current event was God sent, we understand that God is not fulfilling prophecy in our present circumstances.

What will happen in Israel’s prophetic program in the future has no affect on our present ministry, circumstances, or salvation.

The greatest eschatological division is not where you put yourself in the millennium, or when you think the rapture will happen.

The greatest division to make about the end times is between Prophecy and Mystery.

When prophecy speaks of the kingdom come, we know according to the mystery of Christ that it is not our duty to bring in God’s kingdom to the earth.

When prophecy speaks of the trouble to come before the end, we know according to the mystery of Christ that we have no divine instruction to run to the hills.

Our view of the future is not driven by prophecy, but by the instructions of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery (Rom 16:25, Col 1:25-27).

Our hope does not come from the current events of postmillennialism, nor do we need prophetic disasters to give us warning.

We have families to feed, souls to save, and jobs to perform. We respond to the future with the Bible rightly divided, faithfully doing these tasks as long as God’s grace will last.

“And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;” – 1 Thess 4:11
Determining our Eschatology

Often people start with an eschatological (end times) position and then build their doctrines of the church, salvation, and ministry from there. This is exactly backwards.

It should be our doctrine of the church, salvation, and ministry that determines our view of the end times.

When we rightly divide Prophecy from Mystery there is only one relationship to prophecy we can take: prophecy does not describe the present time in which we live, whether it be for the better or the worse.

The millennium, tribulation, restoration of Israel are all parts of God’s prophetic purpose for his chosen nation and not the church. They describe the end times spoken about in prophecy.

The pretribulational premillennial non-prophetic imminent return of Christ is seen as a weak position. It is only weak from the position that does not recognize the difference between Prophecy and Mystery.

A failure to rightly divide Prophecy from Mystery will end up with a failed eschatology.

Not in the End Times

We are not living in the times of prophecy, but in a mystery dispensation. Therefore, we are not living in the end times.

We will not go through the millennium; we are not looking for Israel’s tribulation; nor are we looking for Israel’s restoration.

Instead we operate according to the mystery of Christ, doing our ministry as ambassadors and waiting for the mystery coming of the Lord to remove the church so that he can fulfill his prophecy and promises with Israel.

These are not the prophetic last days for us. Every day is a new day of opportunity to be God’s grace ambassadors in a world that has rejected him. For the sake of ministering the gospel, we should hope there are a million more days.

Our hope is in his appearing sometime in the future, unknown to us (Titus 2:13). Til then, we have work to do.

--or spend some time in the desert.
Johann.

Johann,

The Apostle Paul said emphatically that the Rapture will not occur until AFTER the Resurrection which ONLY occurs at His Coming.

1 Thess 4:15-16
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.


1 Cor 15:20-23
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming


1 Cor 15:51
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In the LIGHT of these scriptures from the Holy Spirit speaking thru the Apostle Paul = Do you still REVERSE the Order of the Rapture by going against the very words of the LORD?
 
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Johann,

i have the Holy Scriptures sitting in my heart present in front of me to look at any scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

There is no need to reference a video MOST ESPECIALLY since you have the SAME scriptures in front of you!

Are we to believe a video over "It is written"?

Isaiah 1:18 says
“Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the Lord,

God wants us to come to Him seeking Truth and that Truth comes from Him - Matthew 4:4
But JESUS answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”
While I am in agreement with you-I am exited and edified LISTENING to THIS particular minister-not saying he is infallible-but we are e mailing one another, edifying one another in the Spirit.

YOU notice the many disagreements here-on one point we are in agreement, two others and we are at loggerheads.
Time is short and we are commanded to redeem the time brother.

I want to be happy WITH you-but also am aware we are going to disagree on many points-and frankly, I don't have time for continual disagreements.

Shalom Achi, Chen and shalom to you and family.

And I am NOT saying I have it altogether-I only know in part and pray for a deeper epignosis in the sphere of the Holy Spirit-and my style of life a sweet aroma-pleasing to our Lord.
J.
 
Johann,

The Apostle Paul said emphatically that the Rapture will not occur until AFTER the Resurrection which ONLY occurs at His Coming.

1 Thess 4:15-16
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.


1 Cor 15:20-23
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming


1 Cor 15:51
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In the LIGHT of these scriptures from the Holy Spirit speaking thru the Apostle Paul = Do you still REVERSE the Order of the Rapture by going against the very words of the LORD?
You are aware there is no word in Scripture re the "Rapture?"
Maybe you and I can go into the Koine Greek and Hebrew and try to understand-not the meaning of the words, but the morphologies?

Besides-harpadzo is NOT a

Salvific issue.

Shalom.​

 
Johann,

The Apostle Paul said emphatically that the Rapture will not occur until AFTER the Resurrection which ONLY occurs at His Coming.

1 Thess 4:15-16
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.


1 Cor 15:20-23
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming


1 Cor 15:51
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In the LIGHT of these scriptures from the Holy Spirit speaking thru the Apostle Paul = Do you still REVERSE the Order of the Rapture by going against the very words of the LORD?
All these verses-and many more has been thoroughly dealt with in the video brother-you know what time is it now here in South Africa? 02.53 in the morning-as you rightly quoted-man shall not live by bread alone--

J.
 
You are aware there is no word in Scripture re the "Rapture?"
Maybe you and I can go into the Koine Greek and Hebrew and try to understand-not the meaning of the words, but the morphologies?

Besides-harpadzo is NOT a

Salvific issue.​

Shalom.​

YES YES my Brother - SHALOM in CHRIST be upon you and your loved ones - AMEN

Take this home with you tonight and i leave this for you to ponder on your own.

Irregardless of the word 'rapture' the TRUTH is:

A.) We are waiting for His Coming - 1 Thess 1:10
B.) The Saints in Heaven are waiting to Return with the LORD for their Resurrected Bodies - 1 Thess 4:13-18
C.) The Saints who will be alive on earth at His Coming will only be changed AFTER the Resurrection - 1 Thess 4:15-17

The most important question for you then is = Do you agree to go against the Order of His Coming and the Resurrection in favor of a pre-trib rapture?

PLEASE dwell on that question in the LIGHT of Scripture and take your time.

SHALOM and Good Night Brother
 
YES YES my Brother - SHALOM in CHRIST be upon you and your loved ones - AMEN

Take this home with you tonight and i leave this for you to ponder on your own.

Irregardless of the word 'rapture' the TRUTH is:

A.) We are waiting for His Coming - 1 Thess 1:10
B.) The Saints in Heaven are waiting to Return with the LORD for their Resurrected Bodies - 1 Thess 4:13-18
C.) The Saints who will be alive on earth at His Coming will only be changed AFTER the Resurrection - 1 Thess 4:15-17

The most important question for you then is = Do you agree to go against the Order of His Coming and the Resurrection in favor of a pre-trib rapture?

PLEASE dwell on that question in the LIGHT of Scripture and take your time.

SHALOM and Good Night Brother
Shall rise first.—Not as meaning “shall be the first to rise,” as contrasted with non-members of the Church who are to rise later; though that is a scriptural thought (Rev_20:5-6), the Greek here refuses to be so explained. Rather, “the first thing will be the rising of the dead in Christ,” contrasted with what follows—“then, and not till then, shall we be caught up.” The same order is carefully observed in 1Co_15:52.
Ellicott.
 
YES YES my Brother - SHALOM in CHRIST be upon you and your loved ones - AMEN

Take this home with you tonight and i leave this for you to ponder on your own.

Irregardless of the word 'rapture' the TRUTH is:

A.) We are waiting for His Coming - 1 Thess 1:10
B.) The Saints in Heaven are waiting to Return with the LORD for their Resurrected Bodies - 1 Thess 4:13-18
C.) The Saints who will be alive on earth at His Coming will only be changed AFTER the Resurrection - 1 Thess 4:15-17

The most important question for you then is = Do you agree to go against the Order of His Coming and the Resurrection in favor of a pre-trib rapture?

PLEASE dwell on that question in the LIGHT of Scripture and take your time.

SHALOM and Good Night Brother
Just one thought brother-Justin is not a pre-tribber.
 
I want to be happy WITH you-but also am aware we are going to disagree on many points-and frankly, I don't have time for continual disagreements.
Precious brother, that is when you know it is time to obey God, According to His Command
to Paul in The Revelation Of The Mystery = Romans 16:17.

To disobey, fleshly trying to proceed further is simply "bashing them over the head" With
Scripture, which is surely "bad works" At The Judgment Seat Of Christ.

My profile over at Christian Board is still awaiting your arrival for encouraging / edifying
discussion there...

As always, Precious friend, Please Be Very Richly Edified and Encouraged In
Christ, and In His Precious Word of Truth, Rightly Divided.

Amen.
 
The Apostle Paul said emphatically that the Rapture will not occur until AFTER the Resurrection which ONLY occurs at His Coming.

1 Thess 4:15-16
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
your making it say that .its called interposition. while i do hold to pretrib its gonna happen exactly the way the good Lord has planned. not how you or me or anyone else thinks i got booted out of a forum for calling admin on this.. they didn like said i was arguing . facts are Jesus is coming morning night or noon. the way it looks it sure dont look like any of us that are saved. will be here much longer . i expect to be took out of here any day
 
your making it say that .its called interposition. while i do hold to pretrib its gonna happen exactly the way the good Lord has planned. not how you or me or anyone else thinks i got booted out of a forum for calling admin on this.. they didn like said i was arguing . facts are Jesus is coming morning night or noon. the way it looks it sure dont look like any of us that are saved. will be here much longer . i expect to be took out of here any day
Thank you @ezra for your concern and expression of kindness in granting to me thoughts.

Could you please detail how you see interposition by myself upon scripture - thank you
 
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