What is the difference between eternal security, once saved always saved, and perseverance of the saints?

[praise_yeshua]

Well I did great last night...then I woke up.

Romans 3:23 says, “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

The more we understand God’s holiness, the more we will agree that we have fallen short of it. But He has our back.

I can agree completely with you here. The more I live, the more I see things for what they are relative to my own condition. We must first start here in our theology.

We must ask the question.....What does this mean for me?

If we do not, then all we have are the words of others. It never becomes our own. Once we apply it to ourselves, it becomes tangible in our lives. I try to consider myself first. I'm not always successful at doing this.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Because in fact, THEY ARE THE SAME in practical outworking. The differences are nothing but "theology" which is like noses. Everybody's got one.

They are somewhat different in how people approach the issue. Those who believe in freewill actually often fall into the OSAS category. To those who believe in a fatalistic view of election don't really care. At least, in my mind they don't.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well I did great last night...then I woke up.

Romans 3:23 says, “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

The more we understand God’s holiness, the more we will agree that we have fallen short of it. But He has our back.

Just to add one more thought to your reply.....

It is faith that brings us back to God. Faith that God will forgive us of our sin. Asking God to forgive us over and over again is part of trusting God. I know others will say otherwise but they don't really see themselves for what they really are. Salvation becomes more of a concept than actual "life" to them. Living is complicated. Our message isn't look at me. It is look at Christ. He is better than us all.

 

[Larry]

Just to add one more thought to your reply.....

It is faith that brings us back to God. Faith that God will forgive us of our sin. Asking God to forgive us over and over again is part of trusting God. I know others will say otherwise but they don't really see themselves for what they really are. Salvation becomes more of a concept than actual "life" to them. Living is complicated. Our message isn't look at me. It is look at Christ. He is better than us all.

Your are right on.

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

 

[Larry]

Because in fact, THEY ARE THE SAME in practical outworking. The differences are nothing but "theology" which is like noses. Everybody's got one.

Some "theology" does have a foul odor.

 

[Larry]

The episode of Peter walking over waters can cast some light on the issue.

Think in salvation as "the state in which you are not drowning in the lake of Galilee"

Did Peter come off the boat trusting Jesus call? Yes.
Did Peter remain motionless, awaiting Jesus to do all the work? No.
Was Peter expected to have any skill in moving his feet or in keeping balance so that he could walk over the waters? No.
Was Peter the author of his floating motion? No.
Did Peter start to sink at some point? Yes
Did Peter remain silent when he noticed he was sinking? No.
Did Peter ask Jesus to be rescued when he noticed he was sinking? Yes
Did Jesus rescue Peter? Yes

• Peter was guaranteed to be safe over the waters if he just trusted Jesus enough as to do what He asked him to do
• Peter realized he could lose that trust at some point.
• Peter realized Jesus would be there for him, even if he lost that trust for a moment, if he cried for help.
• Peter trust was not trust in his own abilities to float, but in Christ's ability to keep him afloat.

I can walk on water if it is 1/4 inch or less.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Certain folks REDEFINE faith as faith AND works which explains why these folks have so much faith in works for salvation instead of in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Such folks don't understand the difference between faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) and faith only-per James 2:24 (empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14)

Who saw the works of Abraham and recognized there value?

Did it take 25 years to prove himself to God?

 

[mailmandan]

Who saw the works of Abraham and recognized there value?

Did it take 25 years to prove himself to God?

God saw it and men see it in the word of God yet God already knew Abraham's heart and knew that his faith was genuine in Genesis 15:6 when he believed God and God accounted his faith to him for righteousness. (Romans 4:2-3)

That took place many years before Abraham offered up his son Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:21)

 

[praise_yeshua]

God saw it and men see it in the word of God yet God already knew Abraham's heart and knew that his faith was genuine in Genesis 15:6 when he believed God and God accounted his faith to him for righteousness. (Romans 4:2-3)

That took place many years before Abraham offered up his son Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:21)

Again. Manifested it to who? You said God knew. Thusly, it wasn't 25 years in the making that God was pleased.

What Abraham experienced in offering his son wasn't for God to be pleased with Abraham. It was for Abraham to understand God.

 

[Studyman]

Who saw the works of Abraham and recognized there value?

Did it take 25 years to prove himself to God?

Didn't Abram embark on an Exodus out of his old life, a journey with God to a place Abram had never been before? Wasn't he told to "Deny himself", pick up his life's experience, (cross, or what made Abram, Abram), and follow God? Didn't he "put on the New Man", Abraham, a man which after God was created in righteousness and true Holiness? Didn't Joshua and Caleb and Zacharias and Simeon, the first Church of God after the ascension of Christ and Paul, along with others all embark on the same Exodus?

Aren't you and I also engaged in this same journey?

5 years, 10 years, 25 years, does it make any difference? (Parable of the laborers in the vineyards)

 

[mailmandan]

Again. Manifested it to who? You said God knew. Thusly, it wasn't 25 years in the making that God was pleased.

What Abraham experienced in offering his son wasn't for God to be pleased with Abraham. It was for Abraham to understand God.

I already told you in post #88. Manifested it before God and millions upon millions of people over the years who have read about it in Scripture, all the way back to the OT days. You may be over thinking this. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6 and also demonstrated that he truly did fear God. Yet Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. Again, the work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I already told you in post #88. Manifested it before God and millions upon millions of people over the years who have read about it in Scripture, all the way back to the OT days. You may be over thinking this. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6 and also demonstrated that he truly did fear God. Yet Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. Again, the work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

Abraham didn't do what he did to please anyone but God. Do you do your works to be seen of men and to justify yourself before men. Countless people have read this narrative and believed Abraham was literally crazy. Mentally ill to attempt a human sacrifice of his own Son.

God already knew his faith was genuine. Other men didn't matter. He believed God. Not other men. Abraham abandoned his entire life searching for a city who's builder and maker was God.

There is only one way to take the words of James, either James is right and Abraham was justified before God by works or he is wrong.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Didn't Abram embark on an Exodus out of his old life, a journey with God to a place Abram had never been before? Wasn't he told to "Deny himself", pick up his life's experience, (cross, or what made Abram, Abram), and follow God? Didn't he "put on the New Man", Abraham, a man which after God was created in righteousness and true Holiness? Didn't Joshua and Caleb and Zacharias and Simeon, the first Church of God after the ascension of Christ and Paul, along with others all embark on the same Exodus?

Aren't you and I also engaged in this same journey?

5 years, 10 years, 25 years, does it make any difference? (Parable of the laborers in the vineyards)

Agreed. This a battle of perspective. Abraham failed along the way. He just keep expressing his faith while God keep leading him.

Now, if you will just accept the Trinity, you'll be getting somewhere...

 

[Studyman]

Agreed. This a battle of perspective. Abraham failed along the way. He just keep expressing his faith while God keep leading him.

Yes, I agree, and Paul sought the same Glory as Abraham received.

Phil. 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect, (Abraham made mistakes) but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended, but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark "for the prize" of the high calling of God "in" Christ Jesus.

And for this, what did God say about Abraham to the entire world for thousands of years so that almost EVERY person on the planet today, knows about Abraham?

Gen. 26: 1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that Abraham obeyed "my" voice, and kept "my" charge, "my" commandments, "my" statutes, and "my" laws.

Paul says that God:

Rom. 2: 6 Who will render to every man "according to his deeds": 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing "seek for" glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Clearly Paul and Abraham were "Seeking Glory, Honor and Immortality" from the God of Abraham.

And why wouldn't they?

Now, if you will just accept the Trinity, you'll be getting somewhere...

Most trinitarians I have met, don't believe the Inspired Words of God I just posted. I'm already in enough trouble, I'll leave the trinitarians to their own philosophy.

 

[mailmandan]

Abraham didn't do what he did to please anyone but God. Do you do your works to be seen of men and to justify yourself before men.

God certainly was pleased with Abraham. Genesis 22:17 - I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies 18 and through your offspring, all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.

I never stated that Abraham did what he did to please others, yet Abraham did show his faith by his works and James said I will show you my faith by my works. (James 2:18) My motivation for doing good works is not about self promotion before others or self justification. It is God who justifies. (Romans 8:33)

A better motivation to do good works would be to glorify God rather than self. Matthew 5:16 - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Countless people have read this narrative and believed Abraham was literally crazy. Mentally ill to attempt a human sacrifice of his own Son.

If they did not understand the big picture.

God already knew his faith was genuine. Other men didn't matter. He believed God. Not other men. Abraham abandoned his entire life searching for a city who's builder and maker was God.

God is omniscient and Abraham's story in Scripture does matter to mankind, just as all Scripture does. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

There is only one way to take the words of James, either James is right and Abraham was justified before God by works or he is wrong.

Abraham was justified (shown to be righteous) before the very eyes of God and before mankind in Scripture. In regard to James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

The Greek word for justified "dikaioo" has more than one meaning depending on the context. Thayer's:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just,

 

[Seabass]

Many understand the term repentance to mean “a turning from sin.” Regretting sin and turning from it is related to repentance, but it is not the precise meaning of the word. In the Bible, the word repent means “to change one’s mind.” The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions (Luke 3:8–14; Acts 3:19). In summarizing his ministry, Paul declares, “I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds” (Acts 26:20). The full biblical definition of repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of action.

What, then, is the connection between repentance and salvation? The book of Acts especially focuses on repentance in regard to salvation (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 11:18; 17:30; 20:21; 26:20). To repent, in relation to salvation, is to change your mind in regard to sin and Jesus Christ. In Peter’s sermon on the day of Pentecost (Acts chapter 2), he concludes with a call for the people to repent (Acts 2:38). Repent from what? Peter is calling the people who rejected Jesus (Acts 2:36) to change their minds about that sin and to change their minds about Christ Himself, recognizing that He is indeed “Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:36). Peter is calling the people to change their minds, to abhor their past rejection of Christ, and to embrace faith in Him as both Messiah and Savior.

Repentance involves recognizing that you have thought wrongly in the past and determining to think rightly in the future. The repentant person has “second thoughts” about the mindset he formerly embraced. There is a change of disposition and a new way of thinking about God, about sin, about holiness, and about doing God’s will. True repentance is prompted by “godly sorrow,” and it “leads to salvation” (2 Corinthians 7:10).

Repentance and faith can be understood as two sides of the same coin. It is impossible to place your faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior without first changing your mind about your sin and about who Jesus is and what He has done. Whether it is repentance from willful rejection or repentance from ignorance or disinterest, it is a change of mind. Biblical repentance, in relation to salvation, is changing your mind from rejection of Christ to faith in Christ.

Repentance is not a work we do to earn salvation. No one can repent and come to God unless God pulls that person to Himself (John 6:44). Repentance is something God gives—it is only possible because of His grace (Acts 5:31; 11:18). No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God’s longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4).

While repentance is not a work that earns salvation, repentance unto salvation does result in works. It is impossible to truly change your mind without that causing a change in action. In the Bible, repentance results in a change in behavior. That is why John the Baptist called people to “produce fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matthew 3:8). A person who has truly repented of his sin and exercised faith in Christ will give evidence of a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:19–23; James 2:14–26).

To see what repentance looks like in real life, all we need to do is turn to the story of Zacchaeus. Here was a man who cheated and stole and lived lavishly on his ill-gotten gains—until he met Jesus. At that point he had a radical change of mind: “Look, Lord!” said Zacchaeus. “Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount” (Luke 19:8). Jesus happily proclaimed that salvation had come to Zacchaeus’s house, and that even the tax collector was now “a son of Abraham” (verse 9)—a reference to Zacchaeus’s faith. The cheat became a philanthropist; the thief made restitution. That’s repentance, coupled with faith in Christ.

Repentance, properly defined, is necessary for salvation. Biblical repentance is changing your mind about your sin—no longer is sin something to toy with; it is something to be forsaken as we “flee from the coming wrath” (Matthew 3:7). It is also changing your mind about Jesus Christ—no longer is He to be mocked, discounted, or ignored; He is the Savior to be clung to; He is the Lord to be worshiped and adored.


Got Questions Ministries

1)
God has commanded men to repent hence salvation is IMPOSSIBLE without repentance meaning all the belief only in the world can never save a person who will not repent.

2)
repentance is a work just like faith is a work:

Mk 2:1-5 men did the work of creating a hole in the roof to lower a sick man down to where Christ was at..... v5 says "When Jesus saw their faith". What Jesus SAW was the work thee men did because of the faith they had in Christ to heal Jesus. Faith here is called a work for their faith moved these men to do something, that bein, moved them to bring their sick friend to Christ to be healed. If they sat doing nothing the man would not have been healed, hence doing nothing has never saved anyone.

Mt 12:41 Jesus said the "men of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah" And in Jonah chapter 3 we read where the men of Nineveh did repent and V10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

"Jesus SAW their faith," what we it Jesus SAW that was called faith? WORKS
"And God SAW their works" what was it God SAW that is called WORKS? Repentance.
No obedient works = no repentance. No obedient works = no faith.

Therefore repentance is a change of mind but repentance also requires a change in one's behaviour and actions..."that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." (Acts 26:20). If one is a thief one must provide restitution for what he has stolen and must change his actions/behaviour from stealing to working to make a living. Just having a mental attitude of being sorry for stealing is not "works meet for repentance" but making restitution and changing one's behaviour and actions IS works meet for repentance.

3)
repentance is an act of obedience to God since God has commanded repentnace, therefore repentance is not a work of merit. There is not a single case in the Bible where a person's repentance, that is, where a person who obeyed God's will, where that obedience is called a work of merit. Faith onlyists refuse to acknowledge that there is a difference between obedience to God's will and works of merit and therefore will never have an accurate understanding of NT salvation. This is why they cannot find a single example of where a person's obedience to God is called a work of merit whereby their obedience earned God's free gift nor find that God owed a person for their obedience to Him.

4)
in the NT obedience is required BEFORE God justifies a person, BEFORE one can be righteous. Paul in Rom 6:16 said "obedience UNTO righteousness" and in vs 17-18 we see HOW those Romans were justified:
1) were servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin?justified

.......obeyed from the heart BEFORE justification/righteousness. Again, there is not an an example in the NT gospel of Christ where God just randomly, unconditionally justified a person while that person was continually living in defiance to God's will, that is, God unconditionally justified a person BEFORE that person humbly submited to obeying God's will FIRST THEN God freed them from sin.

 

[Seabass]

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

I believe there is often confusion on how people apply the concept of "faith".

I think we must ask the question.....

Faith in what? I can tell you that the first times I talked of expressing faith in Jesus Christ, I had no idea what that actually meant.

To me, faith included an abandonment of perceived traditions of God to literally embrace God at a very individual level.

we can see from the verses you quoted in Acts 10:34-35 that faith MUST include working God's righteousness in order to be accepted with God. Hence a faith alone, that is, a faith apart from works is dead and not accepted with God. There is not a single example in the NT gospel where God randomly, UNconditionally accepted a person who was continually living in UNrighteousness, in defiance in doing God's will.

 

[praise_yeshua]

we can see from the verses you quoted in Acts 10:34-35 that faith MUST include working God's righteousness in order to be accepted with God. Hence a faith alone, that is, a faith apart from works is dead and not accepted with God. There is not a single example in the NT gospel where God randomly, UNconditionally accepted a person who was continually living in UNrighteousness, in defiance in doing God's will.

There are many reasons why you're wrong. God has promised to accept the smallest of faith as pleasing Him. Faith grows but it is the smallest of faith that pleases God. You nor I am judges of any man. Not one single person falls under our judgement to either damnation nor acceptance to God.

For example,

1. How can you work if you're crippled? How can you work of you're blind deaf and can't speak? Are there different rules for some?
2. Faith doesn't require anything but acceptance of the work of another.
3. Requiring "works" to establish the validity of faith is judgment of another.

I could go on and on but lets start there......

Again. I believe mankind can abandon faith in Jesus Christ. However, it has nothing to do with the absence or prevalence of sin.

Notice the words of Paul.....

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

Many express faith but have no idea what that faith means. Faith doesn't require absolute knowledge. These children are often rebellious and incapable of pleasing God. Much like when we are children and our father and mother MUST compensate for your inabilities (wiping the feces, feeding us, pampering us when we cry, showing patience and longsuffering toward our own children) until they grow up to able to take care of themselves.

Many bad things happen during this time. Children even die because of neglect. This world is full of innocent people that are victims of circumstances that God allows to take place in our lives.

I've noticed that people often change their position on salvation as they age. The older they get and the more feeble they get they tend to see that they're nothing without God.

Now, OSAS and "P" are overstated but so are those who believe they understand every aspect of when God does and doesn't cast away His own.

I remind you, if anyone man FALLS.... it our job to be kind and tenderhearted.

Gal 6:1 Brothers and sisters, if a person is discovered in some sin, you who are spiritual restore such a person in a spirit of gentleness. Pay close attention to yourselves, so that you are not tempted too.
Gal 6:2 Carry one another’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:4 Let each one examine his own work. Then he can take pride in himself and not compare himself with someone else.
Gal 6:5 For each one will carry his own load.

There is nothing to glory about in the fall of another brother or sister of Adam.

 

[Seabass]

There are many reasons why you're wrong. God has promised to accept the smallest of faith as pleasing Him. Faith grows but it is the smallest of faith that pleases God. You nor I am judges of any man. Not one single person falls under our judgement to either damnation nor acceptance to God.

For example,

1. How can you work if you're crippled? How can you work of you're blind deaf and can't speak? Are there different rules for some?
2. Faith doesn't require anything but acceptance of the work of another.
3. Requiring "works" to establish the validity of faith is judgment of another.

I could go on and on but lets start there......

Again. I believe mankind can abandon faith in Jesus Christ. However, it has nothing to do with the absence or prevalence of sin.

Notice the words of Paul.....

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

Many express faith but have no idea what that faith means. Faith doesn't require absolute knowledge. These children are often rebellious and incapable of pleasing God. Much like when we are children and our father and mother MUST compensate for your inabilities (wiping the feces, feeding us, pampering us when we cry, showing patience and longsuffering toward our own children) until they grow up to able to take care of themselves.

Many bad things happen during this time. Children even die because of neglect. This world is full of innocent people that are victims of circumstances that God allows to take place in our lives.

I've noticed that people often change their position on salvation as they age. The older they get and the more feeble they get they tend to see that they're nothing without God.

Now, OSAS and "P" are overstated but so are those who believe they understand every aspect of when God does and doesn't cast away His own.

I remind you, if anyone man FALLS.... it our job to be kind and tenderhearted.

Gal 6:1 Brothers and sisters, if a person is discovered in some sin, you who are spiritual restore such a person in a spirit of gentleness. Pay close attention to yourselves, so that you are not tempted too.
Gal 6:2 Carry one another’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.
Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:4 Let each one examine his own work. Then he can take pride in himself and not compare himself with someone else.
Gal 6:5 For each one will carry his own load.

There is nothing to glory about in the fall of another brother or sister of Adam.

The Bible is very clear on the subject...no obedience to God = no salvation

Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Heb 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Rom 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Not a single verse says faith only saves...not one.

 

[Dizerner]

Not a single verse says faith only saves...not one.

There are verses that definitely sound like faith alone, even if we make exception.

We want to understand that faith, not legalism, is the essential element in salvation.