What is the difference between eternal security, once saved always saved, and perseverance of the saints?

[praise_yeshua]

I just like to say what Jesus said: You will know them by their fruits. A good tree produces good fruit, a bad tree bad fruit.

No fruit of the spirit in ones life no roots in the tree/vine ( Jesus ). One should have the evidence of the new man, the new creation, the new birth, new life etc.....

Thats my take in a nutshell fwiw

Absolutely!

The issue to me is with who is beholding the fruit and where that fruit lives.

When David sinned... His sin hurt him and Israel. The "sword never left his house". His own son died a traitors death. Yet God saw how the heart of David was broken. Godly sorrow is fruit of the Spirit of God. David couldn't change what he had gotten himself into but God certainly doesn't require such in His relationship with His children. When God will not fix our mistakes and we can't even help ourselves, God still just keeps loving us.

 

[civic]

Absolutely!

The issue to me is with who is beholding the fruit and where that fruit lives.

When David sinned... His sin hurt him and Israel. The "sword never left his house". His own son died a traitors death. Yet God saw how the heart of David was broken. Godly sorrow is fruit of the Spirit of God. David couldn't change what he had gotten himself into but God certainly doesn't require such in His relationship with His children. When God will not fix our mistakes and we can't even help ourselves, God still just keeps loving us.

Yes as Paul said- godly sorrow produces repentance. We see in our modern day certain mainstream Pastors/Theologians who have no sorrow over their sin, have not repented when their sin was exposed. I can think of one prominent guy who was the dean at the Masters Seminary and was always one of the main speakers at the G3 conferences every year.

 

[Seabass]

Why can't they justify?

To be justified by the OT law of Moses, that law required the Jew to keep ALL of it perfectly sinless (Gal 5:3 do the WHOLE law).....which the Jew could not do.

--In Rom 1 Paul shows the Gentiles are sinners and Rom 2 he shows the Jews are sinners and concludes all (Jew & Gentitle) are under sin.

--People under sin are in need of justification.

----in Rom 3 Paul spends this first half of this chapter talking about that OT law which was given to the Jew. Though having that law was an advantage for the Jew over the Gentile, that law could not justifiy the Jew because of its requirement of sinless perfection, therefore it left the Jew as unjustified as the Gentile (Rom 3:9). Therefore the OT law is NOT how those under sin will find justification. Even the Hebrew writer points out in Heb 10:1-2 that if those OT sacrifices could justify then there would have been no need for them to cease. Yet they could not justifiy the Jew, it took the perfect sacrifice of a sinless man Jesus Christ which can justify one through faith and NT faith does NOT require perfect, flawless law keeping but a simple obedience to God's will.

----in Rom 3:21 Paul is saying but NOW there is a different way to find justification apart from perfect flawless law keeping and that way is by faith. Paul spends the rest of Rom 3 contrasting the difference between faith that can justify from the work of perfect flawless required by that OT law that cannot justifiy. Paul makes this contrast in Rom 8:1:
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,"....NOW in the gospel dispensation there is no condemnation in Christ as opposed to back THEN under the OT where there was condemnation by the OT law for committing just one sin and that OT law showed no mercy.

 

[mailmandan]

I don't think the argument is hopeless at all. Although Paul leaves of "of the Law," it a few places, he uses it in more of them.

It's very clear in context that Paul is using works specifically concerning works of the Law in the context of salvation.

In Titus 3:5, we read that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, we read that God saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works.. So once again, Paul is not merely limiting works only to specific works under the law and when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, one cannot dissect works of obedience/good works from the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)

 

[Seabass]

The problem you have is you're a legalist. As a "lawyer" of "Christianity", you can't see things for what they are. You always see faith solely in the context of your own efforts. It is you that began your faith and it is you that will complete your faith.

That is legalism. You live by your own standards. Vain traditions ruin any context of following God.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

We are HIS WORKMANSHIP

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Not our own. You're NOT a lawyer arguing against or for the acceptance of the servants of Jesus Christ. God's approval is what matters. Arminians have long rejected these facts. They all pretend they're better than what they actually are. God gives you mercy and longsuffering just like He does me. None of us are any less or greater than one another.




Most every translation mishandles ὑπακοή. Substitute "submission" instead of obedience and you'll understand that verse much better.

Sure. Christ submitted to suffering. You're dishonoring Christ with you false claims.





Noah got drunk. Remember that? What did God do when Noah disobeyed? It was the faith of Noah that sustained him when he sinned. The same is true of you. Nothing different.



You're living in defiance of God right now. Right now. One of these days you're going to realize you've been wrong for a very long time. Once you do, ask YOURSELF this question. Don't be a hypocrite.

Saints of God's sin are found throughout the Scriptures. It is why Paul wrote these words.....

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

You continue to throw around the word legalist for you have no valid argument here. Again, you make a legalist out of Christ and Noah because they obeyed.

The word 'legalist' is not even found in the BIble either in the original language or in the English. It is a word people define anyway they want to. If people do not agree with you, then have to call them a legalist using the term in a derogatory sense.


Yet if you ask me. legalism is a good thing, it's a great thing.

Are you a legalist P-Y?

Do you file your tax forms and pay your taxes to the IRS as the law requires? Then you're a legalist.
Do you follow the laws of the road and stop at red lights, have the required driver's license and auto insurance? Then you're a legalist.
If your employer says your work must meet certain specs else will fail inspection, therefore do you follow the instructions of your employer? Then you're a legalist.
Do you follow your doctors instructions, take certain amount of doses of medicines as prescribed? Then your a legalist.

Legalism in the world is a good thing, it's a great thing for it keeps from having social disorder and chaos, it keeps you out of jail, it lets you keep your job, it helps maintain your health following doctors orders. It is the ILLegalists that are the law breakers, the criminals, those who cause the problems.

Yet when it comes to the BIble and Christianity, the word 'obedience', which is a good, honest, clean word, is taken by some and dirtied up simply because it does not follow their man-made teachings.

Was Noah a legalists when he built the ark to God's specs? His obedience to God is why God saved him from destruction in the flood
Was Naaman a legalist when he obeyed God by dipping in the specified river the specified number of times? His obedience to God is why God cured his disease.
Were those in Acts 2 legalist when they repented and were baptized? There obedience to God is why God remitted their sins
Was Paul a legalist when he was baptized? His obedience to God is why God washed away his sins
Was Jesus a legalist Himself? Heb 5:8


Jesus would be the all time biggest promoter "legalism";
If you love Me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, Jn 14:15
If you KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love" Jn 15:10

And nowhere ever in the BIble is obedience called a work of merit or 'legalism" Lk 17:7-10

 

[Seabass]

Not true at all. Faith must be first and includes nothing more than belief in God. Everything begins with faith.

You're conflating and ignoring that God works with the smallest of faith.

Faith that does not include repentance cannot save for all the faith alone in the world can never save those who refuse to repent....repent or perish, Lk 13:3.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Faith that does not include repentance cannot save for all the faith alone in the world can never save those who refuse to repent....repent or perish, Lk 13:3.

Faith is not repentance. Faith is simply belief. You need to really dig into theology a little more before you start making claims like this.....

In Luke 13:3, Jesus was talking to people that already had faith in Messiah. Faith in the promises of God. They needed repentance.

Which is exactly what I needed when I was 17 years old. Faith took me to the moment that I was birthed into the family of God. Our entire lives post expression of "faith" leads us to God. Those that seek.... find. Faith begins our journey of seeking God.

So stop conflating. You must conflate to sell your beliefs.

 

[Seabass]

Faith is not repentance. Faith is simply belief. You need to really dig into theology a little more before you start making claims like this.....

In Luke 13:3, Jesus was talking to people that already had faith in Messiah. Faith in the promises of God. They needed repentance.

Which is exactly what I needed when I was 17 years old. Faith took me to the moment that I was birthed into the family of God. Our entire lives post expression of "faith" leads us to God. Those that seek.... find. Faith begins our journey of seeking God.

So stop conflating. You must conflate to sell your beliefs.

Faith MUST include repentance else it is a dead, worthless, useless faith alone that cannot save.

As hard as you may try, you will never get an impenitent person saved by belief alone.....never.

Lk 13:3 Jesus REQUIRED to repent or perish...simple to understand..no repentance = perish.