What is the difference between eternal security, once saved always saved, and perseverance of the saints?

Good morning, @atpollard and Dizerner

This is a kind of chicken-and-egg debate. Did Jonah repent, or did God make Jonah repent?

Jonah prayed from the belly of the fish, saying:
“I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction, And He answered me.
Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice."


Jonah did seek God, out of his free will... But God had prepared the setting for that to happen. If God didn't send the storm and then the fish to swallow him, would Jonah have repented?

Neither Jonah nor any of us could flee from God's sovereignty and plans. So, ultimately, everything good in us, including our repentance, faith, and free will, comes from God and all praise should be to Him.

God's grace is irresistible. Calvin was right on this.
Unfortunately, Calving failed to realize that God's grace is of one kind: irresistible, and that encompass all humanity across all ages.
Calvin thought there was a kind of "resistible" grace ("common grace"), so to speak, and then a kind of "irresistible" grace. He resorted to this trying to explain why some people seem to have rejected the gospel of Christ.
However, splitting the grace of God in these two different categories is not biblical and makes no sense to me.

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Calvin and you are as wrong as can be regarding grace being irresistible.

Irresistible Grace.

John Piper ( a calvinist )
“Irresistible grace refers to the sovereign work of God to overcome the rebellion of our heart and bring us to faith in Christ so that we can be saved.” Furthermore, “The doctrine of irresistible grace means that God is sovereign and can conquer all resistance when he wills.” In other words, “It means that the Holy Spirit, whenever he chooses, can overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible.”

The question is this- is the above statement a universal truth found in Scripture or is it a doctrinal assumption in a systematic theology ?

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Luke 19:41
And when he drew nigh, he saw the city and wept over it,

Barnes:
the triumphant King and Lord of Zion wept! Amid all "his" prosperity, and all the acclamations of the multitude, the heart of the Redeemer of the world was turned from the tokens of rejoicing to the miseries about to come on a guilty people. Yet they "might" have been saved.

conclusion: Those whom He came to seek and save ( the lost ) rejected Him.

2 Corinthians 6:1
As God’s partners, we beg you not to accept this marvelous gift of God’s kindness and then ignore it.

Hebrews 10:29
Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us.

Hebrews 12:25
Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking. For if the people of Israel did not escape when they refused to listen to Moses, the earthly messenger, we will certainly not escape if we reject the One who speaks to us from heaven!

Hebrews 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Here we have those receiving Gods grace sharing in the Holy Spirit of grace reject it. They have fallen away permanently from His grace and can no longer repent.

Psalm 78:17;40
But they continued to sin against Him, rebelling in the desert against the Most High. How often they disobeyed Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert!

Here we see them in the wilderness rejecting Gods grace upon them and grieving God in the process.

People sin: Which separated all from fellowship with God.
Responsible: Able-to-respond to God’s appeals for reconciliation.
Open door: For anyone to enter by faith. Whosoever will may come to His open arms.
Vicarious atonement: Provides a way for anyone to be saved by Christ’s blood.
Illuminating grace: Provides clearly revealed truth so that all can know and respond in faith.
Destroyed: For unbelief and resisting the Holy Spirit.
Eternal security: For all true believers.

Gods teaching His Grace is resisted which refutes the " I " in tulip

My top 20 reasons against grace being irresistible


1-Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

2-Matthew 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

3-Luke 19:41
And when he drew nigh, he saw the city and wept over it,

4-Galatians 5:4-7
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

5-Hebrews 12:14-15
Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.

6-2 Corinthians 6:1
As God’s partners, we beg you not to accept this marvelous gift of God’s kindness and then ignore it.

7-Hebrews 10:29
Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us.

8-Hebrews 12:25
Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking. For if the people of Israel did not escape when they refused to listen to Moses, the earthly messenger, we will certainly not escape if we reject the One who speaks to us from heaven!

9-Genesis 6:3: And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

10-2 Chronicles 36:15-16: And the Lord God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, till there was no remedy.

11-Proverbs 29:1: He who is often rebuked, and hardens his neck, Will suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

12-Isaiah 30:15 “For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: ‘In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quiteness and confidence shall be your strength.’ But you would not.”

13-Isaiah 65:2“I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts.”

14-Jeremiah 35:15 “I have also sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, ‘Turn now everyone from his evil way, amend your doings, and do not go after other gods to serve them; then you will dwell in the land which I have given to you and your fathers.’ But you have not inclined your ear, nor obeyed Me.”

15-Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”

16-Acts 13:46: Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.”

17-Romans 10:21: But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”

18- Matthew 23:37: Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.”

19- Hebrews 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Here we have those receiving Gods grace sharing in the Holy Spirit of grace reject it. They have fallen away permanently from His grace and can no longer repent.

20- Psalm 78:17;40
But they continued to sin against Him, rebelling in the desert against the Most High. How often they disobeyed Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert.

Adam who was “spiritually “dead hid from God in the garden and was able to communicate with God and understand Him. In the day you eat you shall surely die. So adam sinned and was spiritually dead and yet could communicate with God and understand God. “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” (Genesis 3:10)

Luke 16:27-31 -“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Above we see that Jesus declared the physical dead and spiritual dead can respond to spiritual things. The dead spiritual/physical dead man is pleading for his own brother’s life.

Jesus declares in John 5:25, “An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” Here Jesus says the spiritually dead can and will hear him

In Mark 2:17 Jesus said, “"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." The sick/spiritually dead can hear and understand Jesus- the sinner who is dead in their sins can understand.

In Romans 1 we read of the spiritually dead that they can perceive God and that Gods handiwork is self-evident to them and that the things of God are clearly seen by them so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20- For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”

conclusion: You see the doctrine of irresistible grace is unfounded and there are many unproven presuppositions built into Gods Sovereignty and mans condition and free will to choose or reject God. God does not force Himself on anyone for that by definition would be unloving, just as it would be for you or I to force another person to love you.

hope this helps !!!
 
Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
[Matthew 22:1-14 AMP] 1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3 "And he sent his servants to call those who had [previously] been invited to the wedding feast, but they refused to come. 4 "Then he sent out some other servants, saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Look, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fattened calves are butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."' 5 "But they paid no attention [they disregarded the invitation, treating it with contempt] and went away, one to his farm, another to his business. 6 "The rest [of the invited guests] seized his servants and mistreated them [insulting and humiliating them] and killed them. 7 "The king was enraged [when he heard this], and sent his soldiers and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. 8 "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding [feast] is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 'So go to the main highways that lead out of the city, and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.' 10 "Those servants went out into the streets and gathered together all the people they could find, both bad and good; so the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests [sitting at the banquet table]. 11 "But when the king came in to see the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed [appropriately] in wedding clothes, 12 and he said, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wearing the wedding clothes [that were provided for you]?' And the man was speechless and without excuse. 13 "Then the king said to the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him into the darkness outside; in that place there will be weeping [over sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [over distress and anger].' 14 "For many are called (invited, summoned), but few are chosen."

... you didn't read the WHOLE story, you just "cherry picked a verse" to support YOUR systematic theology (which is what you accused others of doing).

What is interesting is that in the parallel telling of this story, Luke reports Jesus claimed God ordered that they be COMPELLED to come ...

[Luke 14:23 AMP] 23 "Then the master told the servant, 'Go out into the highways and along the hedges, and compel them to come in, so that my house may be filled [with guests].
 
conclusion: You see the doctrine of irresistible grace is unfounded and there are many unproven presuppositions built into Gods Sovereignty and mans condition and free will to choose or reject God. God does not force Himself on anyone for that by definition would be unloving, just as it would be for you or I to force another person to love you.

hope this helps !!!
Piper and Calvin aside ...

YOU may be able to resist God's saving grace (what do I know of such things), but I know that I COULD NOT.
 
Absurd and ludicrous.

Scripture clearly teaches us free will from start to finish.
Hi, Dizerner:

I fully support the notion of free will.
When I say “irresistible” I mean that, in the long term, and whatever we do to flee or fight, God wins, but always respecting our free will.
Jonah is a good example.
Jonah resisted the grace of God for a while. Do we agree?
However, God just did what Jonah needed to experience in order to repent, come to God and fulfill God’s plan.
In this process, God did not violate Jonah’s free will.

Same with Saul (Paul).
Paul had no plan at all to repent from persecuting Christians, or from accepting Christ. He was not seeking Christ by any means. Do we agree on this?
Then God made something as powerful as He did for Jonah.
Would Paul have repented if God does not give him the vision in the road to Damascus?
So God attracted Paul to Him at the right moment and place to fulfill a mission. And in all of this, God did not violate Paul’s free will.
 
However, God just did what Jonah needed to experience in order to repent, come to God and fulfill God’s plan.

Jonah had the free will to die in that whale if he wanted, just like you will die in your self-righteousness if you do not repent and trust alone in the Blood of Christ to save you.

Jonah's suffering did not force him to repent—he still had the option.

So God attracted Paul to Him at the right moment and place to fulfill a mission. And in all of this, God did not violate Paul’s free will.

Paul could have resisted. He was not forced. He was graced, but not forced.

He said "Woe is me, if I do not preach the Gospel."

Paul did know the consequences—but he wasn't forced.
 
Jonah had the free will to die in that whale if he wanted, just like you will die in your self-righteousness if you do not repent and trust alone in the Blood of Christ to save you.

Jonah's suffering did not force him to repent—he still had the option.



Paul could have resisted. He was not forced. He was graced, but not forced.

He said "Woe is me, if I do not preach the Gospel."

Paul did know the consequences—but he wasn't forced.
I fully agree that Jonah and Paul had free will and that God respected their free will.
Free will can exist within God’s sovereignty. He does not force. He moves, persuades and attracts.

I like to use the example of the mother and her child.
(The example assumes a normal mother and normal child).
The love of the mother is irresistible to the child and the child ends up loving her back. Does this violate the child’s free will?

I also like to use the example of Coca Cola.
If a bunch of clever marketing guys can get millions to buy their product, without violating their free will, what can God achieve when He is determined to advance His plans?
 
… just like you will die in your self-righteousness if you do not repent and trust alone in the Blood of Christ to save you.

I highy value the precious blood of Christ in my personal salvation.
Its power, the power of love, has inspired me to crucify the old man and be resurrected into a new man.
As Bahá’u’lláh has sweetly and eloquently said, Jesus sacrifice made all creation weep, but also infused a fresh power to all created things.

Let me share with you and our readers the English version of an anonymous Spanish medieval sonnet

I am not moved, my God, to love You

By the heaven You have promised me,

Nor am I moved by the hell so feared

To cease offending You for that reason.
You move me, Lord!
I am moved to see You
 Nailed to a cross and scorned;

I am moved to see Your body so wounded,

I am moved by Your affronts and Your death.
I am moved, in the end, by Your love, and in such a way,

That even if there were no heaven, I would love You,

And even if there were no hell, I would fear You.
You need not give me anything to make me love You;

For even if I did not hope for what I hope,

I would love You just as I love You now


Original in Spanish:

No me mueve, mi Dios, para quererte

el cielo que me tienes prometido,

ni me mueve el infierno tan temido

para dejar por eso de ofenderte.
Tú me mueves, Señor,
muéveme el verte 
clavado en una cruz y escarnecido,

muéveme ver tu cuerpo tan herido,

muévenme tus afrentas y tu muerte.
Muéveme, en fin, tu amor, y en tal manera,

que aunque no hubiera cielo, yo te amara,

y aunque no hubiera infierno, te temiera.
No me tienes que dar porque te quiera,

pues aunque lo que espero no esperara,

lo mismo que te quiero te quisiera
 

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Yes.
Just as Saul did until Damascus.
I did too. I remember the moment. I was caught between two worlds. I know what pushed me over the edge. I had resisted God for several months. This is where people can make a real difference in allowing the process to work. Just caring can make the difference. Sometimes faith begins but it is largely misunderstood by the believer. There is a brokenness that must take place in Repentance. There comes a point where you must give up your own stubborn will and bow to Christ. That comes after you've tasted of the good things of God. It is dangerous to turn at this point. It can produce problems in your life to the point of reprobation. I once believed exactly what you believe concerning the irresistible work of God at that moment but I see things for what they were then. It was such am emotional experience for me that I felt like I had no choice. There was a personal point in this that changed everything. It tipped the scales...
 
I highy value the precious blood of Christ in my personal salvation.
Its power, the power of love, has inspired me to crucify the old man and be resurrected into a new man.
As Bahá’u’lláh has sweetly and eloquently said, Jesus sacrifice made all creation weep, but also infused a fresh power to all created things.

Let me share with you and our readers the English version of an anonymous Spanish medieval sonnet

I am not moved, my God, to love You

By the heaven You have promised me,

Nor am I moved by the hell so feared

To cease offending You for that reason.
You move me, Lord!
I am moved to see You
 Nailed to a cross and scorned;

I am moved to see Your body so wounded,

I am moved by Your affronts and Your death.
I am moved, in the end, by Your love, and in such a way,

That even if there were no heaven, I would love You,

And even if there were no hell, I would fear You.
You need not give me anything to make me love You;

For even if I did not hope for what I hope,

I would love You just as I love You now


Original in Spanish:

No me mueve, mi Dios, para quererte

el cielo que me tienes prometido,

ni me mueve el infierno tan temido

para dejar por eso de ofenderte.
Tú me mueves, Señor,
muéveme el verte 
clavado en una cruz y escarnecido,

muéveme ver tu cuerpo tan herido,

muévenme tus afrentas y tu muerte.
Muéveme, en fin, tu amor, y en tal manera,

que aunque no hubiera cielo, yo te amara,

y aunque no hubiera infierno, te temiera.
No me tienes que dar porque te quiera,

pues aunque lo que espero no esperara,

lo mismo que te quiero te quisiera
Have you meet others just like this Jesus you say you love? You believe that you are just like Jesus. This Jesus you appeal to is an inward imagination. An inward look to self.
 
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