What is the difference between eternal security, once saved always saved, and perseverance of the saints?

[Alive]

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one. John 10:27–30

Jesus grounds his confidence in the safety of his sheep in the incomparable omnipotence of his Father. It is because there is no one greater or more powerful than God the Father that the sheep are secure.

Was Jesus mistaken in his assessment of the Father’s power and purpose? I don't think so.

 

[Hosanna]

Hello,

Meaning Stanley and all those many other 'preachers" were doctrinally WRONG by saying he would be saved anyway.

---A person by free will chooses to have faith and be saved. Being saved does not cause a person to lose their free will, therefore one can choose to cast aside that faith and become lost.

---In the example I gave where one turned to live in homosexuality, but that does not imply in any way He never really believed therefore never really saved. If a person quits believing and their quitting proves they never really believed....... then if a person quits smoking their quitting proved they never really smoked?


The BIble has always made obedience to God a condition to gaining the promise of salvation.

Mt 7:21 those who doeth the will of the Father are the ones to enter the kingdom
Heb 5:9 Christ is the Author of salvation unto all them that obey Him.

This is why no one can find a single verse in the NT gospel of a person receiving the promise of eternal life while that person continued to live in defiance, disobedience to God's will. Therefore if it takes obedience to receive the promise of eternal life then it takes continue obedience to keep that promise.

Gen 6:8 - "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD." I think you and I would not deny that Noah was saved in Gen 6:8 having found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Here's the issue most OSASers do not want to touch: would Noah have CONTINUED to be saved, CONTINUED to find grace in the eyes of the Lord had he disobeyed God's command and defiantly NOT build the ark as commanded by God? NO!!! he would not have only died physically by drowning in the flood but died spiritually having defiantely disobeyed God as others in that disobedient generation who died spiritually in that flood.

If Noah disobeyed God by NOT building the ark, then you CANNOT claim he never really was in God's grace for Gen 6:8 says he found grace in the eyes of the Lord. In Noah's case he did CONDITIONALLY build the ark so he CONDITIONALLY continued to find grace in the eyes of the Lord. What about people who as Noah was saved but unlike Noah they did NOT continue to obey God? Those people lost the promise of eternal life. The Jews were cast off because of their unbelief and Gentiles were graffed in because they stood by faith (Rom 11:20). Then Paul tells these Gentile Christians vs 20-22:

'For if God spared not the natural branches (Jews), take heed lest he also spare not thee (Gentiles),

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

---What Paul says about the Jews and Gentiles here in Rom 11:20-22 makes the idea of OSAS-ES-POTS completely IMPOSSIBLE.

---the Jews being cast off somehow prove they were never ever really saved, they were never really in an OT covenant relationship with God? How could God say of the Jews they be "graff them in AGAIN" if they were never really a branch on the olive tree, never really in a covenant relationship with God? The word 'AGAIN' logically implies they were saved, cut off due to unbelief but if they abide not in unbelief be graffed in AGAIN. Again, OSAS-ES-POTS are completely antagonistic to all of this.

---to the Gentiles grafted in Paul says 'IF (conditional word) thou CONTINUE in his goodness OTHERWISE thou also shalt be cut off".
Though Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord he, like the Gentiles, would have to CONTINUE to obey to CONTINUE to be in God's grace else but cut off. For the Gentiles to be 'cut off' logically implies they had to be a branch on the olive tree for one cannot cut off what was never attached to the tree.

Nice try but there a many people that say they they are Christians that are not and never were.

A Christian is someone who has accepted Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Savior. This person is considered saved, or “born again,” because they have applied the principle found in Romans 10:9: “If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” The underlying factor that differentiates believers from nonbelievers is the Holy Spirit that abides within us, according to Ephesians 1:13: “And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.”

1 Corinthians 1:18 reminds us that “The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.”

If you are born again you can't get un-born. Also the speech and actions of these authentic Christians overflow with fruit of the Spirit, because Galatians 5:22-23 tells us, “But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!”

 

[mailmandan]

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one. John 10:27–30

Jesus grounds his confidence in the safety of his sheep in the incomparable omnipotence of his Father. It is because there is no one greater or more powerful than God the Father that the sheep are secure.

Was Jesus mistaken in his assessment of the Father’s power and purpose? I don't think so.

Amen! In John 10:27-28, we read - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear His voice and some of them don't hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't follow Him) And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He gives eternal life and some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of His hand and some of them will be snatched out of His hand)

Jesus' sheep have eternal security. In CONTRAST with those do not believe and are not His sheep. (John 10:25-26)

 

[Seabass]

Nice try but there a many people that say they they are Christians that are not and never were.

A Christian is someone who has accepted Jesus Christ as his or her Lord and Savior. This person is considered saved, or “born again,” because they have applied the principle found in Romans 10:9: “If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” The underlying factor that differentiates believers from nonbelievers is the Holy Spirit that abides within us, according to Ephesians 1:13: “And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.”

1 Corinthians 1:18 reminds us that “The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.”

If you are born again you can't get un-born. Also the speech and actions of these authentic Christians overflow with fruit of the Spirit, because Galatians 5:22-23 tells us, “But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!”

If what you say was right in your last post then that means many many people as Stanley are doctrinally WRONG in what they claim.

The issue is not about a Christian becoming 'unborn' but about dying....dying spiritually........which can happen when a Christian falls becoming an apostate.

 

[Seabass]

Jn 19:27-28

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

a) Eternal life is CONDITIONALLY given to those that are sheep of Christ.

b) To be a sheep of Christ requires one to CONDITIONALLY to both hear and follow.

c) Both verbs hear and follow are present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained action.

Hence, as long as one CONDITIONALLY CONTINUES (present tense) to hear and follow he will be a sheep of Christ and given eternal life. If one quits CONDITIONALLY hearing and following them he no longer qualifies as a sheep of Christ, no longer given eternal life and removes himself from Christ's hand.


No one is a sheep of Christ who does not continually both hear and follow.

 

[Hosanna]

Hello,

Meaning Stanley and all those many other 'preachers" were doctrinally WRONG by saying he would be saved anyway.

So you say, but...

Charles Stanley:
“As a believer, you will never be judged for your sins” (Eternal Security — Can You Be Sure?, Nashville: Oliver Nelson, 1990, p. 39).
“Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy … believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation.”

...That's not the end of the story. If you backslid Jesus will not let you stay there. He is the Good Shepherd. He goes and gets that one lost lamb.

What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? LUKE 15:4

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. John 10:9 Not maybe, it's a sure thing.

27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.
John 10:27–30

 

[Marion]

Charles Stanley has a very good perspective on Eternal Security.

A Gift Is a Gift Is a Gift

You and I are not saved because we have enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our enduring Lord. Notice how Paul ends this passage:

It is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. —Ephesians 2:8–9

Pictured here is something we experience every time we are handed a gift.It refers to the entire process Paul has just finished describing, that is, salvation. “Salvation,” Paul says, “is a gift.” Now I don’t know about you, but I have learned that a gift that can be taken back is no gift. True gifts have no strings attached. Once you place a condition of any kind on a gift, it becomes a trade, not a gift.

To say that our salvation can be taken from us for any reason, whether it be sin or disbelief, is to ignore the plain meaning of this text. To place conditions on the permanency of our salvation is to say it is not a gift. Therefore, placing conditions on the permanency of salvation is the equivalent of not believing Ephesians 2:8 or John 4:10 or other passages where salvation is clearly described as a gift.

What we do with the gift is another matter entirely. The fact that I don’t take advantage of a gift says nothing about who it belongs to. It still belongs to me. You can take a gift and bury it in the back yard, but it is still yours. Once you accept a gift, you are stuck with it, like it or not!

You say, “What if I give it back?” You can give it back only if the giver accepts the return. In the case of salvation God has a strict no–return policy. There is no evidence by way of statement or illustration that God has ever taken back from a believer the gift of salvation once it has been given. His love would keep Him from doing so. Keep in mind, Christ came to seek and to save the lost. Why would He take back what He came to give?

And faith? Faith is our way of accepting God’s gift. Faith serves as our spiritual hands by which the gift is received at a particular moment in time. Again, saving faith is not necessarily a sustained attitude of gratefulness for God’s gift. It is a singular moment in time wherein we take what God has offered.

Before we go any further, let me ask you this: Has there been a time in your life when you accepted God’s free gift of salvation? If not, why not settle the issue once and for all right now? It’s really so simple. God is not looking for a series of promises. His primary concern at this point is not your ability to follow through. He does not want to hear all the things you intend to do for Him. He is more concerned about what you will let Him do for you.

When I was twelve, I prayed a prayer similar to the one I’ve included here. If you are not sure you are saved, why not make sure now? If you recognize your need for forgiveness and you believe Christ’s death made your forgiveness possible, you are ready. Pray,

Charles F. Stanley, Eternal Security: Can You Be Sure?

 

[praise_yeshua]

The "actions of this man prove he was never really a saved believer"

A real Christian is being changed into Chris's image. It is not through study or attempts at obedience or even through religiously following the law. God removes this "veil" between Himself and people only when they come to Him through faith in Christ. Only in Christ is sin forgiven once and for all. Only then does God's Holy Spirit act to remove the veil of hardness and allow those in Christ to see God's glory as He has revealed it in Jesus.

Their in no turning back once you see God's glory

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Generation after generation that claims Jesus Christ end up in unbelief.

To be clear, I'm not saying sin separates anyone from God but unbelief certainly does.

Getting to point of having faith in God is rather easy. Learning and accepting God over a lifetime is difficult.

 

[praise_yeshua]

So you say, but...


...That's not the end of the story. If you backslid Jesus will not let you stay there. He is the Good Shepherd. He goes and gets that one lost lamb.

What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? LUKE 15:4

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. John 10:9 Not maybe, it's a sure thing.

27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.
John 10:27–30

Correct. Your story isn't finished. Jesus left the 99 already. Christ put forth the effort to win you.

What happens when someone you love leaves you?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Charles Stanley has a very good perspective on Eternal Security.

A Gift Is a Gift Is a Gift

You and I are not saved because we have enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our enduring Lord. Notice how Paul ends this passage:

It is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. —Ephesians 2:8–9

Pictured here is something we experience every time we are handed a gift.It refers to the entire process Paul has just finished describing, that is, salvation. “Salvation,” Paul says, “is a gift.” Now I don’t know about you, but I have learned that a gift that can be taken back is no gift. True gifts have no strings attached. Once you place a condition of any kind on a gift, it becomes a trade, not a gift.

To say that our salvation can be taken from us for any reason, whether it be sin or disbelief, is to ignore the plain meaning of this text. To place conditions on the permanency of our salvation is to say it is not a gift. Therefore, placing conditions on the permanency of salvation is the equivalent of not believing Ephesians 2:8 or John 4:10 or other passages where salvation is clearly described as a gift.

What we do with the gift is another matter entirely. The fact that I don’t take advantage of a gift says nothing about who it belongs to. It still belongs to me. You can take a gift and bury it in the back yard, but it is still yours. Once you accept a gift, you are stuck with it, like it or not!

You say, “What if I give it back?” You can give it back only if the giver accepts the return. In the case of salvation God has a strict no–return policy. There is no evidence by way of statement or illustration that God has ever taken back from a believer the gift of salvation once it has been given. His love would keep Him from doing so. Keep in mind, Christ came to seek and to save the lost. Why would He take back what He came to give?

And faith? Faith is our way of accepting God’s gift. Faith serves as our spiritual hands by which the gift is received at a particular moment in time. Again, saving faith is not necessarily a sustained attitude of gratefulness for God’s gift. It is a singular moment in time wherein we take what God has offered.

Before we go any further, let me ask you this: Has there been a time in your life when you accepted God’s free gift of salvation? If not, why not settle the issue once and for all right now? It’s really so simple. God is not looking for a series of promises. His primary concern at this point is not your ability to follow through. He does not want to hear all the things you intend to do for Him. He is more concerned about what you will let Him do for you.

When I was twelve, I prayed a prayer similar to the one I’ve included here. If you are not sure you are saved, why not make sure now? If you recognize your need for forgiveness and you believe Christ’s death made your forgiveness possible, you are ready. Pray,

Charles F. Stanley, Eternal Security: Can You Be Sure?

So you're saying that children can't come to Jesus?

Luk 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jn 19:27-28

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

a) Eternal life is CONDITIONALLY given to those that are sheep of Christ.

b) To be a sheep of Christ requires one to CONDITIONALLY to both hear and follow.

c) Both verbs hear and follow are present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained action.

Hence, as long as one CONDITIONALLY CONTINUES (present tense) to hear and follow he will be a sheep of Christ and given eternal life. If one quits CONDITIONALLY hearing and following them he no longer qualifies as a sheep of Christ, no longer given eternal life and removes himself from Christ's hand.


No one is a sheep of Christ who does not continually both hear and follow.

There is a balance to be found in these opposing positions.

There is little doubt that some grow in Christ faster than others. God is long suffering toward us. The older we get the more we recognize these facts. God doesn't easily cast off His children but it can happen.

 

[Seabass]

So you say, but...

It was you that said that.

...That's not the end of the story. If you backslid Jesus will not let you stay there. He is the Good Shepherd. He goes and gets that one lost lamb.

What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? LUKE 15:4

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. John 10:9 Not maybe, it's a sure thing.

27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.
John 10:27–30

The example of the individual I gave was a backslider and stayed backslidden in sin until he died. Again, Stanley and others claim he will be saved anyway...you disagreed with them. Sheep do go astray and they are not always found, Matt 18:13.

 

[Hosanna]

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Generation after generation that claims Jesus Christ end up in unbelief.

To be clear, I'm not saying sin separates anyone from God but unbelief certainly does.

Getting to point of having faith in God is rather easy. Learning and accepting God over a lifetime is difficult.

Yes unbelief certainly does. You must believe in order to be saved. Not Learning and accepting God over a lifetime is more difficult.

 

[Hosanna]

It was you that said that.

The example of the individual I gave was a backslider and stayed backslidden in sin until he died. Again, Stanley and others claim he will be saved anyway...you disagreed with them. Sheep do go astray and they are not always found, Matt 18:13.

That's not where I stand.

 

[Marion]

Jn 19:27-28

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

a) Eternal life is CONDITIONALLY given to those that are sheep of Christ.

b) To be a sheep of Christ requires one to CONDITIONALLY to both hear and follow.

c) Both verbs hear and follow are present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained action.

Hence, as long as one CONDITIONALLY CONTINUES (present tense) to hear and follow he will be a sheep of Christ and given eternal life. If one quits CONDITIONALLY hearing and following them he no longer qualifies as a sheep of Christ, no longer given eternal life and removes himself from Christ's hand.


No one is a sheep of Christ who does not continually both hear and follow.

Then why is this in the Bible?

What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? LUKE 15:4
You are adding CONDITIONS. That's what the Pharisees did. Works salvation.

The gift of God is salvation in Jesus Christ (John 11:25–26; 1 John 5:11–12). It is a gift because we can’t earn it, nor do we deserve it (Ephesians 2:8–9). The gift of God is a new life sourced and supplied by the Holy Spirit (John 3:5–8; 6:63; Romans 8:10; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 2 Corinthians 3:6). This gift is for everyone (John 3:16), and it is free (Romans 5:15; 6:23; Revelation 22:17). The apostle Paul said this gracious gift of God is too wonderful for words (2 Corinthians 9:14–15).

 

[Seabass]

That's not where I stand.

There is a divide among the OSAS community over if such a person was never really saved or saved anyway.

Those that claim he will be saved anyway refer to 1 Cor 3:15 as their proof text. Those that claim he was never really saved refer to 1 Jn 2:19 as their proof text. Of course my position and the Bible's position is both sides are wrong for one can be saved as those Gentiles in Rom 11 but can be cut off just like the Jews were hence Paul warned those Gentiles 'take heed lest he also spare not thee' .....'if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.'

 

[Larry]

When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their eternal security. Jude 24 declares, “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy.” God’s power is able to keep the believer from falling. It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes unbelief certainly does. You must believe in order to be saved. Not Learning and accepting God over a lifetime is more difficult.

Correct, faith is the beginning. No one can rightfully express sincerity in what they do not believe.

However, lets take the example of Israel after the flesh. For many generations they rejected God as a whole until John came insisting they "Repent".

Similarly, the same is true of man Christian traditions. There is faith being expressed in things that don't really = God. That is what I did when I was a child. I expressed faith in something that really didn't equal God. I had to come to a point where I repented of what I thought I knew to embrace God for WHO.... He is.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Then why is this in the Bible?

What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? LUKE 15:4
You are adding CONDITIONS. That's what the Pharisees did. Works salvation.

The gift of God is salvation in Jesus Christ (John 11:25–26; 1 John 5:11–12). It is a gift because we can’t earn it, nor do we deserve it (Ephesians 2:8–9). The gift of God is a new life sourced and supplied by the Holy Spirit (John 3:5–8; 6:63; Romans 8:10; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 2 Corinthians 3:6). This gift is for everyone (John 3:16), and it is free (Romans 5:15; 6:23; Revelation 22:17). The apostle Paul said this gracious gift of God is too wonderful for words (2 Corinthians 9:14–15).

Where is the 99? That will answer you question. The search for 1 will answer your question. It is similar to parable of the parodical son and the elder son who didn't really appreciate the return of the parodical.

 

[praise_yeshua]

When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their eternal security. Jude 24 declares, “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy.” God’s power is able to keep the believer from falling. It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.

Why certainly He can keep you from falling.

Have you fell recently?