What is Pre-Millennialism?

[PapaLandShark]

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

Ok...so aside from large text you have no exegesis to rely on?

What you are dealing with here, Truther, is tradition that is ingrained as biblical fact. However you cannot pull the RCC out of this text. Babylon was the head of the statue. So the closest we can come to a interpretation of this is one of two ways:

1. "Babylon" rises again. The kingdom of Babylon was in the area of present day Iraq...who's people are the descendent of the ancient enemies of Israel.
2. A power in the spirit of Babylon. Might be the RCC. Might not. Can't tell from the Bible.

Now that said the RCC ( with it's Mariology ) could rise to such prominence. But doubtful. Rome is in the wrong place.

 

[Truther]

Ok...so aside from large text you have no exegesis to rely on?

What you are dealing with here, Truther, is tradition that is ingrained as biblical fact. However you cannot pull the RCC out of this text. Babylon was the head of the statue. So the closest we can come to a interpretation of this is one of two ways:

1. "Babylon" rises again. The kingdom of Babylon was in the area of present day Iraq...who's people are the descendent of the ancient enemies of Israel.
2. A power in the spirit of Babylon. Might be the RCC. Might not. Can't tell from the Bible.

Now that said the RCC ( with it's Mariology ) could rise to such prominence. But doubtful. Rome is in the wrong place.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

What is the city of 7 hills?

the ancient city of Rome

Seven Hills of Rome, group of hills on or about which the ancient city of Rome was built. The original city of Romulus was built upon Palatine Hill (Latin: Mons Palatinus).

Who else?

 

[PapaLandShark]

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

What is the city of 7 hills?

Who else?

I can show you seven hills around Jerusalem. Or pick a spot in Iraq. Nebraska is probably out but just about anywhere has 7 hills. I'm familiar why the reformation folks point at the RCC. And I'm also familiar with the hatred the reformed folk have for the RCC which, as an apostate "church", I agree with. Not the people mind you but the ideology or so called "faith". They have a different Gospel.

But that doesn't make them Babylon. It just makes them ANOTHER group that is anti-christ. Just like every other group outside orthodox Christianity.

 

[PapaLandShark]

More to a finer point...No one knows better what "seven hills" means than John. We can't ask him at the moment ( and when we can it will be moot ). So what would a dyed in the wool Israelite interpret where "seven hills" might be?

 

[PapaLandShark]

I'm not a huge fan of Amil eschatology btw. We reformed folk stole it whole from the RCC while running for our lives...by the time we stopped running it had solidified into tradition. Never a good thing when dealing with Scripture and we should have subjected it too the same scrutiny that we did the Soteriology of the RCC.

 

[Truther]

I can show you seven hills around Jerusalem. Or pick a spot in Iraq. Nebraska is probably out but just about anywhere has 7 hills. I'm familiar why the reformation folks point at the RCC. And I'm also familiar with the hatred the reformed folk have for the RCC which, as an apostate "church", I agree with. Not the people mind you but the ideology or so called "faith". They have a different Gospel.

But that doesn't make them Babylon. It just makes them ANOTHER group that is anti-christ. Just like every other group outside orthodox Christianity.

So, the city that ruled the world in the 1st century was Jerusalem?...


18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


Iraq?
Nebraska?

Jesus showed John that?

 

[Truther]

More to a finer point...No one knows better what "seven hills" means than John. We can't ask him at the moment ( and when we can it will be moot ). So what would a dyed in the wool Israelite interpret where "seven hills" might be?

Nobody knows if 7 mountains means 7 mountains?

Maybe 7 (fill in the blank)?

Is this now Rev is written, as an open ended interpretation?

 

[Truther]

I'm not a huge fan of Amil eschatology btw. We reformed folk stole it whole from the RCC while running for our lives...by the time we stopped running it had solidified into tradition. Never a good thing when dealing with Scripture and we should have subjected it too the same scrutiny that we did the Soteriology of the RCC.

The RCC invented preterism etc to deflect themselves from being the great whore of Rev 17-18 to the Jews.

 

[PapaLandShark]

So, the city that ruled the world in the 1st century was Jerusalem?...


18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


Iraq?
Nebraska?

Jesus showed John that?

You understand my point.

 

[PapaLandShark]

The RCC invented preterism etc to deflect themselves from being the great whore of Rev 17-18 to the Jews.

And?

 

[Truther]

You understand my point.

About open ended interpretations of Rev?

No thanks.

 

[Truther]

And?

The Amil buys much of it(RCC open ended Rev interpretations), hook line and sinker.

 

[Truther]

Was the great whore of Rev 17-18, that ruled the world, the Jews???

LOL

 

[PapaLandShark]

Nobody knows if 7 mountains means 7 mountains?

7 hills

Maybe 7 (fill in the blank)?

Kingdoms perhaps?

Is this now Rev is written, as an open ended interpretation?

No...but neither is the interpretation given by our Reformed brethren the only interpretation.

Rome does not equal Babylon. Babylon equals Babylon. It is *highly* doubtful that Rome is going to rise to the level of power required to equal Babylon in the future ( which rules out the preterist interpretation ) even if we were to say "sure". Iraq/Iran however are quite capable of doing so for the region in question. Also they seem to be quite fond of removing peoples heads. Just a thought.

You might find this book helpful to get a feel for where I'm coming from.

https://salvationbygrace.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/HOF-Chapter4-TheAntichrist.pdf

"The Seleucid Empire took over more territories including Anatolia, Persia, the Levant, Mesopotamia, and today's Kuwait, Afghanistan, and parts of Turkmenistan."

 

[PapaLandShark]

About open ended interpretations of Rev?

No thanks.

But that is exactly what was done with the current tradition of "Rome" being Babylon. /shrug

 

[PapaLandShark]

Was the great whore of Rev 17-18, that ruled the world, the Jews???

LOL

See above

 

[Truther]

Ok...so aside from large text you have no exegesis to rely on?

What you are dealing with here, Truther, is tradition that is ingrained as biblical fact. However you cannot pull the RCC out of this text. Babylon was the head of the statue. So the closest we can come to a interpretation of this is one of two ways:

1. "Babylon" rises again. The kingdom of Babylon was in the area of present day Iraq...who's people are the descendent of the ancient enemies of Israel.
2. A power in the spirit of Babylon. Might be the RCC. Might not. Can't tell from the Bible.

Now that said the RCC ( with it's Mariology ) could rise to such prominence. But doubtful. Rome is in the wrong place.

Notice that I did not do anything but highlight. I let the scripture speak for itself. And you clearly saw what the highlighted verses were saying. That is the difference between scripture and commentary, pretending to be scripture. A.k.a. exegesis.

 

[Truther]

But that is exactly what was done with the current tradition of "Rome" being Babylon. /shrug

Who was the world ruler according to the passage in the first century. A… Jerusalem., B… Rome.?

 

[Truther]

See above

What is Jerusalem the great whore of Rev 17-18?

 

[PapaLandShark]

Notice that I did not do anything but highlight. I let the scripture speak for itself. And you clearly saw what the highlighted verses were saying. That is the difference between scripture and commentary, pretending to be scripture. A.k.a. exegesis.

The Scripture does not say Rome. In fact, if you read through the portion of the book I posted, it *can't* be Rome based on Scripture.

I've no beef with you nor do I particularly have a mind to change *your* mind but blind faith in tradition rubs me wrong. Go check. It might be fun for you.