PapaLandShark
Member
A discussion on all the particulars of the Pre-Millennial view.
What is Pre-Millennialism?
- Thread starter PapaLandShark
- Start date
Truther
Well-known member
The premil doctrine in the Bible is so blatantly obvious that I have no idea how someone can deny it. Jesus will reign physically over the earth for 1000 years as promised by God.
This is God's promise to Jesus, not us....
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
This is God's promise to Jesus, not us....
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
civic
Well-known member
Amen
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Be gentle with me....
I'm not going to take a position. I'm simply going to argue various points.
1. How can the rule of Christ in our heart, not a physical "reign".
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Truther
Well-known member
He will reign as the verse says.
It speaks of the Millennial reign....
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
So, the Democrats will finally be put down...LOL
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I don't see any reference to a "Millennial reign" it is a reference to an indeterminate length of time that will ultimately end.
Where are you getting the "Millennial" from?
Johann
Well-known member
15:23-25 Some theologians assert that these verses confirm a pre-millennial concept of eschatology. However, this text is not a discussion of the millennium, but the resurrection.
Death was defeated at the empty tomb, not a future temporal reign.
We must be careful of our theological agendas driving the interpretation of a context. Paul never discusses a millennium, even in his discussion of the Parousia (cf. 1 Thess. 4:13-18) nor of the Antichrist (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2).
Neither did Jesus ever discuss a millennium, even in His eschatological discourses (cf. Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21). There are several good books that give a summary of each current millennial position and that let the other positions point out the strengths and weaknesses of each.
Robert G. Clouse (ed.), The Meaning of the Millennium, Four Views
C. Marvin Pate (ed.), Four Views on the Book of Revelation
Darrell L. Boch (ed.), Three Views on the Millennium and Beyond
See my comments at Revelation, chapter 20, online at www.freebiblecommentary.org
Johann.
civic
Well-known member
Would you agree that Jesus ruling.reigning on His throne in the temple in Jerusalem is part of the millennium, the millennial reign of Christ for a 1000 years.
Johann
Well-known member
I'm no expert on eschatology brother-as you have seen the divers interpretation and views on the Millennium-but there will be a reigning of Christ Jesus for a thousand years.
Johann.
civic
Well-known member
The reason I asked because Jesus did talk often about His reign as King in the kingdom. its why the Jews missed His first Coming and will recognize Him whom they have pierced at His 2nd Coming when He rules/reigns from Jerusalem.
Just like Jesus didn't mention the word Trinity or Millennium doesn't mean He didn't reference the idea/concept in His teachings.
Johann
Well-known member
Reading Is 53 will give you a good idea why God's covenantal people "missed it" brother-to this day.
And reading the Pauline epistles will throw a flood of light on the "Why"
You see-we have it wrong-we tend to read the NT first and then the OT-when, in fact, it should be the other way around.
I am still listening to many Jewish debates, my favorite pastime, and most of the quotes is from the Old, to the New.
For every verse in the NT we should cross reference it with the Old-and that I have learned from Michael Brown.
Shalom brother.
Johann.
civic
Well-known member
The hermeneutical principle I stand on is the new interprets the old. When the new quotes the old it sheds light upon its meaning and understanding. That is the principle I used with my thesis paper and referenced every N.T. passage quoted on Isaiah 53.
Johann
Well-known member
Well-not that I'm "selling" my pastor-but do have a look on the hermeneutical approach on Is 53 from Utley-I have met his team and receive e mails from them.
Brother-we are Westerners and tend to think "West" when in fact, we should think East-makes sense?
Love you Chris.
Johann.
civic
Well-known member
my point referencing Isaiah 53 and the N.T, usage is the following from my thesis paper.
The wrath of God (Isaiah 53)
Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.
In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God. The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25.
Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.
On a side note I do not want to turn this thread into a PSA discussion. We have a forum to debate its merits.
civic
Well-known member
@PapaLandShark I apologize for PSA in your thread. I will not comment anymore in this thread on that topic. Let me know if you want those comments to be moved from your thread. Thanks !
Truther
Well-known member
Millennial means 1000....
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, ....
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords right now. He is reigning.
Let me ask you a simple question. Something I've asked "premillianists" before without a satisfactory answer.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Notice the expiration of the "thousand years"..... Verse 8 says that these "nations" Christ has "reigned over" are going to join Satan for the "final" battle.....
Just how does this "fit" your narrative. The premillennialist insists that Christ must "RULE" over all of humanity to fulfill prophecy......
Yet, vs 8 says THESE nations that are supposedly being "ruled" over are going to join up with Satan....... Based upon your own assumptions, how can this happen if Christ has reigned over man during this time?
To be clear,
Christ is reigning now, yet many are resisting that reign is = to the same claim that you are making given verse #8. Even though Christ will physically rule mankind, vs 8 at least establishes the same situation.
I don't see how your position is any different. It has the same result. Christ reigning while some men still resist Him.
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