What is Pre-Millennialism?

civic said:
my point referencing Isaiah 53 and the N.T, usage is the following from my thesis paper.


The wrath of God (Isaiah 53)

Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.

In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God. The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25.

Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.

On a side note I do not want to turn this thread into a PSA discussion. We have a forum to debate its merits.
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Then let's go to the forum debating its merits brother.
Johann.
 
praise_yeshua said:
He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords right now. He is reigning.

Let me ask you a simple question. Something I've asked "premillianists" before without a satisfactory answer.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Notice the expiration of the "thousand years"..... Verse 8 says that these "nations" Christ has "reigned over" are going to join Satan for the "final" battle.....

Just how does this "fit" your narrative. The premillennialist insists that Christ must "RULE" over all of humanity to fulfill prophecy......

Yet, vs 8 says THESE nations that are supposedly being "ruled" over are going to join up with Satan....... Based upon your own assumptions, how can this happen if Christ has reigned over man during this time?

To be clear,

Christ is reigning now, yet many are resisting that reign is = to the same claim that you are making given verse #8. Even though Christ will physically rule mankind, vs 8 at least establishes the same situation.

I don't see how your position is any different. It has the same result. Christ reigning while some men still resist Him.
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Does Jesus reign over the current administration including the trans movement and the abortion lobby?

If he is over that, he is complicit for ignoring it and letting it occur under his watch.

This is why the verse says...

.....when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
 
praise_yeshua said:
He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords right now. He is reigning.

Let me ask you a simple question. Something I've asked "premillianists" before without a satisfactory answer.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Notice the expiration of the "thousand years"..... Verse 8 says that these "nations" Christ has "reigned over" are going to join Satan for the "final" battle.....

Just how does this "fit" your narrative. The premillennialist insists that Christ must "RULE" over all of humanity to fulfill prophecy......

Yet, vs 8 says THESE nations that are supposedly being "ruled" over are going to join up with Satan....... Based upon your own assumptions, how can this happen if Christ has reigned over man during this time?

To be clear,

Christ is reigning now, yet many are resisting that reign is = to the same claim that you are making given verse #8. Even though Christ will physically rule mankind, vs 8 at least establishes the same situation.

I don't see how your position is any different. It has the same result. Christ reigning while some men still resist Him.
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Another thing.

Satan is in a pit under the 1000 year reign.

Not roaming to and fro, seeking whom he may devour.

After satan is loosed, then for a short season he get's to run amuck at the end of Christs reign, to be quickly destroyed at the end.

Sinners are even physically dealt with quickly during Christs reign per Zech 14.

Right now, the only thing controlling politics is shared by satan, sinners and God overseeing it from going too far.
 
Another thing.

Religion will cease at the 1000 year reign.

Even Rome will be uninhabited forever beginning at and during his reign as a sign that God hates the RCC.
 
Truther said:
Does Jesus reign over the current administration including the trans movement and the abortion lobby?
Click to expand...

Does Jesus reign over those who side with Satan and seek to destroy Him in Rev 20:8.

Truther said:
If he is over that, he is complicit for ignoring it and letting it occur under his watch.
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See are not "under his watch" now?

Truther said:
This is why the verse says...

.....when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
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So it takes a 1000 years to put down all rule, authority and power?

Not only this, but it appears you are saying He isn't successful during those 1000 years. Which creates the same scenario you're trying to avoid with your stated belief.
 
praise_yeshua said:
Does Jesus reign over those who side with Satan and seek to destroy Him in Rev 20:8.



See are not "under his watch" now?



So it takes a 1000 years to put down all rule, authority and power?

Not only this, but it appears you are saying He isn't successful during those 1000 years. Which creates the same scenario you're trying to avoid with your stated belief.
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1...Yes, but allows satan to reign over them at the very end.

2...The principalities that reign over sinners are under him, just like they were per Job(under God). Satan reigns over sinners now as a prince.

3...No, it is put down immediately until the short uprising of Rev 20. Then no more uprisings.
 
praise_yeshua said:
Chapter, verse?
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20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


She is the queen of all false Christian religions in NT times.

Rome will cease to exist as a city for the entire 1000 years.

This ends man's religions.

As per this also....


40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


With the consumation of the RCC as the last kingdom of man.

Jesus will reign uncontested.
 
Truther said:
1...Yes, but allows satan to reign over them at the very end.

2...The principalities that reign over sinners are under him, just like they were per Job(under God). Satan reigns over sinners now as a prince.

3...No, it is put down immediately until the short uprising of Rev 20. Then no more uprisings.
Click to expand...

You are avoiding the question. Did Jesus rule during the "physical" reign over these same people? The same people that joined Satan?

I don't see how you can claim that Jesus "ruled". On the contrary, Does Jesus RULE/REIGN in the hearts of His own?

I don't that you're actually dealing with this. Just stating various claims that don't really deal with the issue.
 
Truther said:
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
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What other Lord is there now? What other name is proclaimed among Christians?

He has a name which is above every name "right now".... Not years from now. Right now.
 
Truther said:
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


She is the queen of all false Christian religions in NT times.

Rome will cease to exist as a city for the entire 1000 years.

This ends man's religions.

As per this also....


40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


With the consumation of the RCC as the last kingdom of man.

Jesus will reign uncontested.
Click to expand...
Can we go point by point here?

Is the voice of Babylon heard after your claim of a 1000 year reign of Christ? Is it not heard when the nations join Satan to battle Christ?
 
praise_yeshua said:
You are avoiding the question. Did Jesus rule during the "physical" reign over these same people? The same people that joined Satan?

I don't see how you can claim that Jesus "ruled". On the contrary, Does Jesus RULE/REIGN in the hearts of His own?

I don't that you're actually dealing with this. Just stating various claims that don't really deal with the issue.
Click to expand...
Jesus is now ruling the willing(satan loses rule over them).

Jesus will rule by force over everyone during his earthly reign.

Jesus will release satan to counter attack his rule before his demise.

Jesus does not co-rule with this guy(prince), ever....


Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience
 
praise_yeshua said:
What other Lord is there now? What other name is proclaimed among Christians?

He has a name which is above every name "right now".... Not years from now. Right now.
Click to expand...
The verse implies all the earth will be under one Lord.

This means every human.

Now, it is only some folks.

God can do better than that.

The millennial unites all humanity under the one Lord, Jesus Christ.

Even the Jews will cease to witness "know the Lord" in that day....
 

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