What Does “Another Gospel” Mean?

[Johann]

I don't quite agree with that. The English word "faith" always means mental assent plus trust. In the Greek, there is "pistis" the noun. and there is "pisteuo" the verb. The verb can be used as believe something. Strictly speaking, "pisteuo en" or "pisteuo epi" means to believe in something. Sometimes when it is obvious, the "en" and/or the "epi" may only be assumed. To believe in something is to have faith in something.

No problem if you disagree @Jim but I "believe" it goes deeper than mere mental assent plus trust.

1. Faith in Biblical Greek: More than Mental Assent and Trust
Your assertion that Greek has pistis (πίστις, noun) and pisteuō (πιστεύω, verb) and that pisteuō en (πιστεύω ἐν) or pisteuō epi (πιστεύω ἐπί) strictly means "to believe in something" is an oversimplification. Greek usage shows a broader and deeper semantic range than just belief or trust:

Pistis (πίστις) means faithfulness, reliability, conviction, and commitment-not just belief or trust.

Matthew 23:23 – "You have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness (πίστιν)." Here, pistis clearly means faithfulness rather than just belief.

Romans 3:3 – "What if some were unfaithful? Does their lack of faithfulness (apistia, ἀπιστία) nullify the faithfulness (pistis) of God?"

Again, the context emphasizes steadfastness and reliability rather than mere belief.

Pisteuō (πιστεύω) means to entrust oneself to something, often implying obedience and action, not just belief.

John 2:23-24 – "Many believed (episteusan, ἐπίστευσαν) in His name, but Jesus did not entrust (episteuen, ἐπίστευεν) Himself to them, because He knew all men."

This indicates that belief alone does not equate to full commitment.

Acts 16:31 – "Believe (pisteuson, πίστευσον) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." Here, pisteuō is an imperative, not a passive intellectual exercise; it demands an active, trusting commitment to Christ.

Thus, pistis and pisteuō in biblical Greek carry a broader sense of faithfulness, commitment, and trust than the English word “faith,” which is often reduced to mental assent.

2. The English Word "Faith" Lacks the Full Meaning of Biblical Faith
Your statement claims that faith in English "always means mental assent plus trust." This is demonstrably false because-

In common English usage, "faith" can mean mere belief (e.g., "I have faith that it will rain tomorrow"), but in biblical contexts, faith includes obedience and loyalty (cf. James 2:17-26).

Hebrew and Greek faith is active, not just intellectual.

Hebrews 11:8 – "By faith (pistei, πίστει) Abraham obeyed (hupēkousen, ὑπήκουσεν)." Faith is directly linked to obedience, not mere belief.

James 2:19 – "Even the demons believe (pisteuousin, πιστεύουσιν)—and shudder!" This shows that belief alone is not sufficient for biblical faith.

Since biblical faith inherently includes action, commitment, and obedience, the English definition of faith as "mental assent plus trust" is too narrow.

3. The Oversimplification of "Pisteuō En" and "Pisteuō Epi"

Your claim that "pisteuō en" (πιστεύω ἐν) and "pisteuō epi" (πιστεύω ἐπί) strictly mean "to believe in something" is an overstatement. These prepositional constructions often carry nuances of reliance, obedience, or entrusting oneself to someone, rather than just belief-

John 3:18 – "Whoever believes (pisteuōn en, πιστεύων εἰς) Him is not condemned." The preposition en (ἐν) emphasizes trusting in and committing to Christ, not just acknowledging His existence.


Pisteuō epi (πιστεύω ἐπί)
Romans 4:5 – "But to the one who does not work but believes (pisteuonti epi, πιστεύοντι ἐπὶ) in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (pistis) is counted as righteousness." This suggests not just belief but trusting reliance upon God.

Moreover, in the New Testament, belief often appears with "eis" (εἰς, into), which strengthens the idea of movement toward, entrusting oneself fully, and obedience:

John 3:16 – "Whoever believes in Him (eis auton, εἰς αὐτὸν) shall not perish."

Acts 19:4 – "They should believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus (eis ton erchomenon met’ auton, εἰς τὸν ἐρχόμενον μετ’ αὐτὸν)."

The usage of "pisteuō en," "pisteuō epi," and "pisteuō eis" does not merely denote mental assent but entrusting oneself fully to Christ, implying obedience (cf. Romans 1:5, "obedience of faith").

4. A More Accurate Definition of Biblical Faith
A proper exegetical definition of faith must account for the full biblical scope of pistis and pisteuō:

Faith is not just belief, but relational trust, faithfulness, and obedience.

Romans 1:5 – "We received grace and apostleship for the obedience of faith (hupakoē pisteōs, ὑπακοὴ πίστεως) among all the nations."

James 2:17 – "Faith (pistis), if it has no works, is dead."
Faith is not a passive state of mind but an active reliance upon Christ.

Galatians 2:16 – "A man is not justified by the works of the law, but through faith (pisteōs) in Jesus Christ."

Hebrews 11:6 – "Without faith (pistis), it is impossible to please God."

Thus, faith is not merely mental assent plus trust, but a dynamic commitment to God that manifests in obedience and perseverance.

So, to sum this up brother-

Your statement's definition of faith as "mental assent plus trust" fails to capture the full biblical meaning of pistis (πίστις) and pisteuō (πιστεύω), which include faithfulness, commitment, obedience, and reliance on God.

The oversimplification of pisteuō en and pisteuō epi ignores their deeper theological significance, which often conveys entrusting oneself to Christ in an active, obedient relationship. Therefore, the biblical concept of faith is not just about believing something to be true but living in trust and obedience to God (Romans 1:5, Hebrews 11:8).

Now faith is (estin de pistis). He has just said that “we are of faith” (Heb_10:39), not of apostasy. Now he proceeds in a chapter of great eloquence and passion to illustrate his point by a recital of the heroes of faith whose example should spur them to like loyalty now.
The assurance of things hoped for (elpizomenōn hupostasis). Hupostasis is a very common word from Aristotle on and comes from huphistēmi (hupo, under, histēmi, intransitive), what stands under anything (a building, a contract, a promise). See the philosophical use of it in Heb_1:3, the sense of assurance (une assurance certaine, Menegoz) in Heb_3:14, that steadiness of mind which holds one firm (2Co_9:4). It is common in the papyri in business documents as the basis or guarantee of transactions. “And as this is the essential meaning in Heb_11:1 we venture to suggest the translation ‘Faith is the title-deed of things hoped for’” (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.).
The proving of things not seen (pragmatōn elegchos ou blepomenōn). The only N.T. example of elegchos (except Textus Receptus in 2Ti_3:16 for elegmon). Old and common word from elegchō (Mat_18:15) for “proof” and then for “conviction.” Both uses occur in the papyri and either makes sense here, perhaps “conviction” suiting better though not in the older Greek.
RWP


Shalom.

J.

 

[Johann]

If we pray to GOD in JESUS name that sure do sum it up .
SO now a quick question
WHOSE NAME do all them other religoins pray in to who they think and beleive is GOD .
cause it sure aint HIS . I say these reminders
cause you would be suprised if you were to ask a lot of people in christendom
if they beleive its necessary for these other religoins to repent and beleive in JESUS ,
well you would be shocked to hear , WELL NO , NOT if they so called LOVED GOD and one another in their own way .
the problem with that is
IF ONE TRULY HAD LOVED GOD THEY WOULD HAVE LOVED HIS CHRIST , FOR JESUS CAME FORTH OF HIM .
we are slowing getting decieved my friend . now when i say we , ITS cause i have care for the peoples and not to mean
we and in us per say . JOHANN i am truly terrified for the souls of many when i see exactly what is going on
and how fast its been taking over places .

I don't care about "other religions" amigo since I am working on my own salvation with fear and trembling. My eyes on Christ Jesus.

Heb_12:2 keeping our eyes on Jesus, the perfect leader and example of faith, who, instead of the joy which lay before Him, endured the cross with no regard for its shame, and since has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of God.


J.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

No problem if you disagree @Jim but I "believe" it goes deeper than mere mental assent plus trust.

1. Faith in Biblical Greek: More than Mental Assent and Trust
Your assertion that Greek has pistis (πίστις, noun) and pisteuō (πιστεύω, verb) and that pisteuō en (πιστεύω ἐν) or pisteuō epi (πιστεύω ἐπί) strictly means "to believe in something" is an oversimplification. Greek usage shows a broader and deeper semantic range than just belief or trust:

Pistis (πίστις) means faithfulness, reliability, conviction, and commitment-not just belief or trust.

Matthew 23:23 – "You have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness (πίστιν)." Here, pistis clearly means faithfulness rather than just belief.

Romans 3:3 – "What if some were unfaithful? Does their lack of faithfulness (apistia, ἀπιστία) nullify the faithfulness (pistis) of God?"

Again, the context emphasizes steadfastness and reliability rather than mere belief.

Pisteuō (πιστεύω) means to entrust oneself to something, often implying obedience and action, not just belief.

John 2:23-24 – "Many believed (episteusan, ἐπίστευσαν) in His name, but Jesus did not entrust (episteuen, ἐπίστευεν) Himself to them, because He knew all men."

This indicates that belief alone does not equate to full commitment.

Acts 16:31 – "Believe (pisteuson, πίστευσον) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." Here, pisteuō is an imperative, not a passive intellectual exercise; it demands an active, trusting commitment to Christ.

Thus, pistis and pisteuō in biblical Greek carry a broader sense of faithfulness, commitment, and trust than the English word “faith,” which is often reduced to mental assent.

2. The English Word "Faith" Lacks the Full Meaning of Biblical Faith
Your statement claims that faith in English "always means mental assent plus trust." This is demonstrably false because-

In common English usage, "faith" can mean mere belief (e.g., "I have faith that it will rain tomorrow"), but in biblical contexts, faith includes obedience and loyalty (cf. James 2:17-26).

Hebrew and Greek faith is active, not just intellectual.

Hebrews 11:8 – "By faith (pistei, πίστει) Abraham obeyed (hupēkousen, ὑπήκουσεν)." Faith is directly linked to obedience, not mere belief.

James 2:19 – "Even the demons believe (pisteuousin, πιστεύουσιν)—and shudder!" This shows that belief alone is not sufficient for biblical faith.

Since biblical faith inherently includes action, commitment, and obedience, the English definition of faith as "mental assent plus trust" is too narrow.

3. The Oversimplification of "Pisteuō En" and "Pisteuō Epi"

Your claim that "pisteuō en" (πιστεύω ἐν) and "pisteuō epi" (πιστεύω ἐπί) strictly mean "to believe in something" is an overstatement. These prepositional constructions often carry nuances of reliance, obedience, or entrusting oneself to someone, rather than just belief-

John 3:18 – "Whoever believes (pisteuōn en, πιστεύων εἰς) Him is not condemned." The preposition en (ἐν) emphasizes trusting in and committing to Christ, not just acknowledging His existence.


Pisteuō epi (πιστεύω ἐπί)
Romans 4:5 – "But to the one who does not work but believes (pisteuonti epi, πιστεύοντι ἐπὶ) in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (pistis) is counted as righteousness." This suggests not just belief but trusting reliance upon God.

Moreover, in the New Testament, belief often appears with "eis" (εἰς, into), which strengthens the idea of movement toward, entrusting oneself fully, and obedience:

John 3:16 – "Whoever believes in Him (eis auton, εἰς αὐτὸν) shall not perish."

Acts 19:4 – "They should believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus (eis ton erchomenon met’ auton, εἰς τὸν ἐρχόμενον μετ’ αὐτὸν)."

The usage of "pisteuō en," "pisteuō epi," and "pisteuō eis" does not merely denote mental assent but entrusting oneself fully to Christ, implying obedience (cf. Romans 1:5, "obedience of faith").

4. A More Accurate Definition of Biblical Faith
A proper exegetical definition of faith must account for the full biblical scope of pistis and pisteuō:

Faith is not just belief, but relational trust, faithfulness, and obedience.

Romans 1:5 – "We received grace and apostleship for the obedience of faith (hupakoē pisteōs, ὑπακοὴ πίστεως) among all the nations."

James 2:17 – "Faith (pistis), if it has no works, is dead."
Faith is not a passive state of mind but an active reliance upon Christ.

Galatians 2:16 – "A man is not justified by the works of the law, but through faith (pisteōs) in Jesus Christ."

Hebrews 11:6 – "Without faith (pistis), it is impossible to please God."

Thus, faith is not merely mental assent plus trust, but a dynamic commitment to God that manifests in obedience and perseverance.

So, to sum this up brother-

Your statement's definition of faith as "mental assent plus trust" fails to capture the full biblical meaning of pistis (πίστις) and pisteuō (πιστεύω), which include faithfulness, commitment, obedience, and reliance on God.

The oversimplification of pisteuō en and pisteuō epi ignores their deeper theological significance, which often conveys entrusting oneself to Christ in an active, obedient relationship. Therefore, the biblical concept of faith is not just about believing something to be true but living in trust and obedience to God (Romans 1:5, Hebrews 11:8).

Now faith is (estin de pistis). He has just said that “we are of faith” (Heb_10:39), not of apostasy. Now he proceeds in a chapter of great eloquence and passion to illustrate his point by a recital of the heroes of faith whose example should spur them to like loyalty now.
The assurance of things hoped for (elpizomenōn hupostasis). Hupostasis is a very common word from Aristotle on and comes from huphistēmi (hupo, under, histēmi, intransitive), what stands under anything (a building, a contract, a promise). See the philosophical use of it in Heb_1:3, the sense of assurance (une assurance certaine, Menegoz) in Heb_3:14, that steadiness of mind which holds one firm (2Co_9:4). It is common in the papyri in business documents as the basis or guarantee of transactions. “And as this is the essential meaning in Heb_11:1 we venture to suggest the translation ‘Faith is the title-deed of things hoped for’” (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.).
The proving of things not seen (pragmatōn elegchos ou blepomenōn). The only N.T. example of elegchos (except Textus Receptus in 2Ti_3:16 for elegmon). Old and common word from elegchō (Mat_18:15) for “proof” and then for “conviction.” Both uses occur in the papyri and either makes sense here, perhaps “conviction” suiting better though not in the older Greek.
RWP


Shalom.

J.

a short summation .
Does one truly beleive IN GOD , IN CHRIST if they beleive NOT His words .
I mean i bet if GOD appeared before all , as they cowered in terror they WOULD BELIEVE HIM THEN .
so why is it many do not beleive HIM NOW . that is gonna be the key my friend .
Abraham BELIEVED GOD . THUS WHEN GOD SAID IT , HE BELIEVED IT and DID IT .
Belief , faith , love , ITS ALL TIED INTO WHO do we TRULY BELEIVE . and had we BELIEVED IN HIM
we had BELIEVED HIS SON and if we truly beleived HIS SON , WELL BY GOLLY WE HAD BELIEVED HIS WORDS .
do you know the reason why israel was not allowed to FIRST enter into
the very land they had been promised and told by GOD He would be with them and defeat their enemies for them .
IT wasnt that they said OH WE DONT BELIEVE IN GOD
It cause they didnt BELEIVE HIM , they saw the giants and simply did not believe they could conquer them .
THEY was afraid . and yet GOD has told them I WILL BE WITH YOU . they seemed to not BELIEVE HIM .
Many can lip all the day long as they sing even praises we beleive , oh we believe in thee O LORD
and in thy SON , and yet the version they seem to be beleiving in sure has convinced them
of lies and unbelief . I bet we all can say GOD is all powerful , all knowing
and yet so many seem not to TREAT HIM as such as they so easily chose to not Believe HIM but rather what men say about him .
IN EFFECT MAKING MAN the GOD and in whom their trust faith and belief was really in all along .
Now this might sound like a real terrifying scenario . BUT TRUE IT IS .
WHO are we really trusting in , who are we really believing in ...........................in men or IN GOD .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

I don't care about "other religions" amigo since I am working on my own salvation with fear and trembling. My eyes on Christ Jesus.

Heb_12:2 keeping our eyes on Jesus, the perfect leader and example of faith, who, instead of the joy which lay before Him, endured the cross with no regard for its shame, and since has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of God.


J.

but what about their salvation . I mean paul cared enough to preach the gospel to all souls .
jew and gentile , gentile and jew .
Going as far in the preaching of it to put his own life in deep jeopardy , even being stoned
even being whipped many times , in prison often .
And even giving dire warnings out to those who failed to believe by saying YOUR BLOOD be upon your own heads .
PAUL sure wasnt going around trying to find common ground with the lost , but rather his mission was
to preach CHRIST to the lost . A MISSION INTEFIATH HAS DENIED . let no man who names the name of Christ
have anything to do with that mess or those who help to lead in it .
PRAY for them to repent , warn them , but in no way support them .

 

[Johann]

a short summation .
Does one truly beleive IN GOD , IN CHRIST if they beleive NOT His words .
I mean i bet if GOD appeared before all , as they cowered in terror they WOULD BELIEVE HIM THEN .
so why is it many do not beleive HIM NOW . that is gonna be the key my friend .
Abraham BELIEVED GOD . THUS WHEN GOD SAID IT , HE BELIEVED IT and DID IT .
Belief , faith , love , ITS ALL TIED INTO WHO do we TRULY BELEIVE . and had we BELIEVED IN HIM
we had BELIEVED HIS SON and if we truly beleived HIS SON , WELL BY GOLLY WE HAD BELIEVED HIS WORDS .
do you know the reason why israel was not allowed to FIRST enter into
the very land they had been promised and told by GOD He would be with them and defeat their enemies for them .
IT wasnt that they said OH WE DONT BELIEVE IN GOD
It cause they didnt BELEIVE HIM , they saw the giants and simply did not believe they could conquer them .
THEY was afraid . and yet GOD has told them I WILL BE WITH YOU . they seemed to not BELIEVE HIM .
Many can lip all the day long as they sing even praises we beleive , oh we believe in thee O LORD
and in thy SON , and yet the version they seem to be beleiving in sure has convinced them
of lies and unbelief . I bet we all can say GOD is all powerful , all knowing
and yet so many seem not to TREAT HIM as such as they so easily chose to not Believe HIM but rather what men say about him .
IN EFFECT MAKING MAN the GOD and in whom their trust faith and belief was really in all along .
Now this might sound like a real terrifying scenario . BUT TRUE IT IS .
WHO are we really trusting in , who are we really believing in ...........................in men or IN GOD .

While I appreciate you responding to my post I was giving the definition of faith and believe, the noun and the verb- as written in Scripture.

My eyes not on man, but Christ Jesus.

Psalm 4:4
Be angry, and do not sin.
Meditate within your heart on your bed, and be still. Selah


Psalm 4:8
I will both lie down in peace, and sleep;
For You alone, O LORD, make me dwell in safety.

Psalm 23:2
He makes me to lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside the still waters.


Psalm 27:8
When You said, “Seek My face,”
My heart said to You, “Your face, LORD, I will seek.”


Psalm 42:8
The LORD will command His lovingkindness in the daytime,
And in the night His song shall be with me—
A prayer to the God of my life.

Psalm 63:6-7
When I remember You on my bed,
I meditate on You in the night watches.
Because You have been my help,
Therefore in the shadow of Your wings I will rejoice.


Psalm 123:1-4
Unto You I lift up my eyes,
O You who dwell in the heavens.
Behold, as the eyes of servants look to the hand of their masters,
As the eyes of a maid to the hand of her mistress,
So our eyes look to the LORD our God,
Until He has mercy on us. Have mercy on us, O LORD, have mercy on us!
For we are exceedingly filled with contempt.
Our soul is exceedingly filled
With the scorn of those who are at ease,
With the contempt of the proud.


Psalm 124:2-8
“If it had not been the LORD who was on our side,
When men rose up against us,
Then they would have swallowed us alive,
When their wrath was kindled against us;
Then the waters would have overwhelmed us,
The stream would have gone over our soul;
Then the swollen waters
Would have gone over our soul.” Blessed be the LORD,
Who has not given us as prey to their teeth.
Our soul has escaped as a bird from the snare of the fowlers;
The snare is broken, and we have escaped.
Our help is in the name of the LORD,
Who made heaven and earth.

Psalm 125:2-5
As the mountains surround Jerusalem,
So the LORD surrounds His people
From this time forth and forever. For the scepter of wickedness shall not rest
On the land allotted to the righteous,
Lest the righteous reach out their hands to iniquity. Do good, O LORD, to those who are good,
And to those who are upright in their hearts. As for such as turn aside to their crooked ways,
The LORD shall lead them away
With the workers of iniquity. Peace be upon Israel!


Psalm 134:1-3
Behold, bless the LORD,
All you servants of the LORD,
Who by night stand in the house of the LORD!

Lift up your hands in the sanctuary,
And bless the LORD. The LORD who made heaven and earth
Bless you from Zion!


Psalm 141:2
Let my prayer be set before You as incense,
The lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.

Isaiah 38:1-11
In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die and not live.’” Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the LORD, and said, “Remember now, O LORD, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what is good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly. And the word of the LORD came to Isaiah, saying, “Go and tell Hezekiah, ‘Thus says the LORD, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria, and I will defend this city.”’ And this is the sign to you from the LORD, that the LORD will do this thing which He has spoken: Behold, I will bring the shadow on the sundial, which has gone down with the sun on the sundial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward.” So the sun returned ten degrees on the dial by which it had gone down. This is the writing of Hezekiah king of Judah, when he had been sick and had recovered from his sickness:
I said,
“ In the prime of my life
I shall go to the gates of Sheol;
I am deprived of the remainder of my years.”
I said,
“ I shall not see YAH,
The LORD in the land of the living;
I shall observe man no more among the inhabitants of the world.

J.

 

[Johann]

but what about their salvation . I mean paul cared enough to preach the gospel to all souls .
jew and gentile , gentile and jew .
Going as far in the preaching of it to put his own life in deep jeopardy , even being stoned
even being whipped many times , in prison often .
And even giving dire warnings out to those who failed to believe by saying YOUR BLOOD be upon your own heads .
PAUL sure wasnt going around trying to find common ground with the lost , but rather his mission was
to preach CHRIST to the lost . A MISSION INTEFIATH HAS DENIED . let no man who names the name of Christ
have anything to do with that mess or those who help to lead in it .
PRAY for them to repent , warn them , but in no way support them .

What do you think I'm doing? Twiddling my thumbs?

J.

 

[Red Baker]

There is no sense of salvation that one is still in his sins and has not the indwelling Holy Spirit. To be saved is to be Justified, Regenerated and (initially sanctified) -- Period.

I never said that it was, Jim, that your conclusion on a topic that you do not understand. No pun intended. Nevertheless salvation is a broad term used in the scriptures and is by no means limited to a time when one is saved from sin and condemnation, the only sense many even considers when the think of salvation/save/saved. I will not go into this again with you since we have many times over the years, to no avail.

Yes for the elect's sake. The elect are those who have believed and have been saved. God doesn't save those He elects; rather, God elects those that He saves.

Jim, that's a oxymoron statement. Your statement makes no sense, and truly destroys the very meaning of election.

Webster 1828:

1. The act of choosing; choice; the act of selecting one or more from others. Hence appropriately,

2. The act of choosing a person to fill an office or employment, by any manifestation of preference, as by ballot, uplifted hands or viva voce; as the election of a king, of a president, or a mayor.

Corruption in elections is the great enemy of freedom.

3. Choice; voluntary preference; free will; liberty to act or not. It is at his election to accept or refuse.

4. Power of choosing or selecting.

5. Discernment; discrimination; distinction.

To use men with much difference and election is good.

6. In theology, divine choice; predetermination of God, by which persons are distinguished as objects of mercy, become subjects of grace, are sanctified and prepared for heaven.

There is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:5.

No I have changed my mind about water baptism. As another has said, "How can you say you believe in God and then not do what He says?" Faith is the premier condition for salvation. Another is repentance. Another is confession. Another is being baptized.

Jim, I knew that you had not, I just wanted you to say it. That has works screaming from every point you just made

Red, you have a twisted thinking about faith and what it is. To have faith in God is one and the same as to believe in God. That is what faith is. They are one and the same.

Jim, I believe that, where have I said otherwise? Help me out.

I'm stopping, but will come back and finish ~I have something that I must do.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

What do you think I'm doing? Twiddling my thumbs?

J.

Trench onwards in the LORD my friend .

 

[Marvelloustime]

Trench onwards in the LORD my friend .

@TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

our dear sister who dwells in the UK is unloading the lovely gems of scripture truth for all to see and love . Embrace
EVERY word of Truth . It is meat for our soul .

 

[Johann]

our dear sister who dwells in the UK is unloading the lovely gems of scripture truth for all to see and love . Embrace
EVERY word of Truth . It is meat for our soul .

I would love to hear her expounding the very verses she is posting, in context.

J.

 

[Red Baker]

I would love to hear her expounding the very verses she is posting, in context.

J.

Actually, before I read your post Johann, I was thinking ~ I truly wonder if she is understanding what she is reading? I would say no, unless a man (or woman) of God lead her, or any other person reading the same. Find a thread on this subject and let's look at those scriptures from Daniel 7-12; Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2nd Thess 2; 1st John 2:18; and Revelation 6-19; etc. Maybe someone can start one.

I have written much on these scriptures over the years.

 

[Red Baker]

our dear sister who dwells in the UK is unloading the lovely gems of scripture truth for all to see and love . Embrace
EVERY word of Truth . It is meat for our soul .

"Only" if they are understood. It is commendable that she post the word of God, it would be even better if expounded upon the same.

 

[Red Baker]

I've been sick the past three weeks, much what the pope has, (only using him to show what I have, but, I'm treating mine myself, trusting God to heal me,) just haven't said anything~said that to say this, do not think anything if you see me slowing down to get better, but, truly it is hard for me to do nothing, even being sick. We must work while it is day, the night cometh when we will not be able to do so. Remember me in your prayers.

 

[Red Baker]

John 3:1-8~"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

What is the main reason why God in his infinite wisdom, purpose to put this discourse in the scriptures for us? This question should be asked by every child of God; we know that God does nothing without a reason, and we know that God, has written the scriptures for two main reasons among others~to give his elect a source of knowledge concerning who he is, and a source of knowledge concerning who they are. 1st Corinthians 3:22-23...and his truth to them

Ask some why did God give this account of the discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus, and most will say: to be used to get sinners born again, by using Jesus as an example of what should be done, as they quote these scriptures, without giving the sense of what they are quoting, which most never do anyway.

Closer home, some use these scriptures to show how God regenerates his people. This position is not void of truth, for God does indeed solely regenerate his people by his Spirit. Yet, this is not the reason why these scriptures are totally given.

The reason why this discourse was given is this: Jesus, the greatest of all prophets, is revealing to us this truth: "By the fact that one can see and know certain spiritual truths concerning Jesus Christ, then that is a biblical proof that God's Spirit has already regenerated/quicken that person to life ~ and without the quicken power of the Spirit, no one can see and know the truth!

Again, a rule that will help us to understand truth is this: We must be slaves to the contents, of whatever context is under consideration, and to follow the flow of the context. The Spirit of God is our teacher, yet we must not be reckless with his word that he has given to us, and to use the wisdom that he gives to us feely.....wisely.

This discourse recorded for us, may be the most quoted scriptures in all of the bible. I stand amaze how few truly understand this discourse. I have heard preachers screamed out to their hearers~Jesus told Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN!

These same preachers believe that it lies in their power to help God regenerate dead sinners; and create within them a new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Ephesians 2:1-10; 4:24. How deceived are they!

Let us consider this all important part of the scriptures, that God purposed to be part of his testimony to us concerning truth.

When reading a discourse like this one, we allow the contents of the context to drive the interpretation , that God intended for us to understand. If we do not do that, then we end up with a pretext, and we will be shamed by them who know the truth.

John 3:1~"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:"

There no big deal as to why Nicodemus came by night, maybe, to have a personal one on one discussion with him away from others, with is always more profit in doing so. This ruler of teh Jews was so much different than the Jews, so much so, there is no comparison as to his spirit.

John 3:2~"The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doeth, except God be with him."

First, let us consider Nicodemus' confession. His confession is totally different than many of the Pharisees and Scribes, and definitely different than the Sadducees. They accused Jesus of being posses with a devil! John 8:48 and that his miracles, were done by the power of Beelzebub. But, not so with Nicodemus.

Nicodemus' confession is very humble, and his confession acknowledged Jesus' miracles to be from God. He also confessed that God was with him. Now, reader, if you truly understand regeneration, then you should have no problem understanding this discourse; but, if you believe that faith and other works (faith is a work by the way) are the means in order to be regenerated and not the fruits of the Spirit living within a person, then you will not follow the flow of this discourse and will not understand it. Note well.....this confession by Nicodemus is a humble, sincere and godly as anyone on this forum, or as any person in any place of worship throughout this world. Would anyone dare to say otherwise? I think not, and if they do, then they have an agenda that they desire to push "above" the testimony of God's word....and such people should be avoided.

To be continue ~ RB

 

[Jim]

No problem if you disagree @Jim but I "believe" it goes deeper than mere mental assent plus trust.

1. Faith in Biblical Greek: More than Mental Assent and Trust
Your assertion that Greek has pistis (πίστις, noun) and pisteuō (πιστεύω, verb) and that pisteuō en (πιστεύω ἐν) or pisteuō epi (πιστεύω ἐπί) strictly means "to believe in something" is an oversimplification. Greek usage shows a broader and deeper semantic range than just belief or trust:

Pistis (πίστις) means faithfulness, reliability, conviction, and commitment-not just belief or trust.

Matthew 23:23 – "You have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness (πίστιν)." Here, pistis clearly means faithfulness rather than just belief.

Romans 3:3 – "What if some were unfaithful? Does their lack of faithfulness (apistia, ἀπιστία) nullify the faithfulness (pistis) of God?"

Again, the context emphasizes steadfastness and reliability rather than mere belief.

Pisteuō (πιστεύω) means to entrust oneself to something, often implying obedience and action, not just belief.

John 2:23-24 – "Many believed (episteusan, ἐπίστευσαν) in His name, but Jesus did not entrust (episteuen, ἐπίστευεν) Himself to them, because He knew all men."

This indicates that belief alone does not equate to full commitment.

Acts 16:31 – "Believe (pisteuson, πίστευσον) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." Here, pisteuō is an imperative, not a passive intellectual exercise; it demands an active, trusting commitment to Christ.

Thus, pistis and pisteuō in biblical Greek carry a broader sense of faithfulness, commitment, and trust than the English word “faith,” which is often reduced to mental assent.

2. The English Word "Faith" Lacks the Full Meaning of Biblical Faith
Your statement claims that faith in English "always means mental assent plus trust." This is demonstrably false because-

In common English usage, "faith" can mean mere belief (e.g., "I have faith that it will rain tomorrow"), but in biblical contexts, faith includes obedience and loyalty (cf. James 2:17-26).

Hebrew and Greek faith is active, not just intellectual.

Hebrews 11:8 – "By faith (pistei, πίστει) Abraham obeyed (hupēkousen, ὑπήκουσεν)." Faith is directly linked to obedience, not mere belief.

James 2:19 – "Even the demons believe (pisteuousin, πιστεύουσιν)—and shudder!" This shows that belief alone is not sufficient for biblical faith.

Since biblical faith inherently includes action, commitment, and obedience, the English definition of faith as "mental assent plus trust" is too narrow.

3. The Oversimplification of "Pisteuō En" and "Pisteuō Epi"

Your claim that "pisteuō en" (πιστεύω ἐν) and "pisteuō epi" (πιστεύω ἐπί) strictly mean "to believe in something" is an overstatement. These prepositional constructions often carry nuances of reliance, obedience, or entrusting oneself to someone, rather than just belief-

John 3:18 – "Whoever believes (pisteuōn en, πιστεύων εἰς) Him is not condemned." The preposition en (ἐν) emphasizes trusting in and committing to Christ, not just acknowledging His existence.


Pisteuō epi (πιστεύω ἐπί)
Romans 4:5 – "But to the one who does not work but believes (pisteuonti epi, πιστεύοντι ἐπὶ) in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (pistis) is counted as righteousness." This suggests not just belief but trusting reliance upon God.

Moreover, in the New Testament, belief often appears with "eis" (εἰς, into), which strengthens the idea of movement toward, entrusting oneself fully, and obedience:

John 3:16 – "Whoever believes in Him (eis auton, εἰς αὐτὸν) shall not perish."

Acts 19:4 – "They should believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus (eis ton erchomenon met’ auton, εἰς τὸν ἐρχόμενον μετ’ αὐτὸν)."

The usage of "pisteuō en," "pisteuō epi," and "pisteuō eis" does not merely denote mental assent but entrusting oneself fully to Christ, implying obedience (cf. Romans 1:5, "obedience of faith").

4. A More Accurate Definition of Biblical Faith
A proper exegetical definition of faith must account for the full biblical scope of pistis and pisteuō:

Faith is not just belief, but relational trust, faithfulness, and obedience.

Romans 1:5 – "We received grace and apostleship for the obedience of faith (hupakoē pisteōs, ὑπακοὴ πίστεως) among all the nations."

James 2:17 – "Faith (pistis), if it has no works, is dead."
Faith is not a passive state of mind but an active reliance upon Christ.

Galatians 2:16 – "A man is not justified by the works of the law, but through faith (pisteōs) in Jesus Christ."

Hebrews 11:6 – "Without faith (pistis), it is impossible to please God."

Thus, faith is not merely mental assent plus trust, but a dynamic commitment to God that manifests in obedience and perseverance.

So, to sum this up brother-

Your statement's definition of faith as "mental assent plus trust" fails to capture the full biblical meaning of pistis (πίστις) and pisteuō (πιστεύω), which include faithfulness, commitment, obedience, and reliance on God.

The oversimplification of pisteuō en and pisteuō epi ignores their deeper theological significance, which often conveys entrusting oneself to Christ in an active, obedient relationship. Therefore, the biblical concept of faith is not just about believing something to be true but living in trust and obedience to God (Romans 1:5, Hebrews 11:8).

Now faith is (estin de pistis). He has just said that “we are of faith” (Heb_10:39), not of apostasy. Now he proceeds in a chapter of great eloquence and passion to illustrate his point by a recital of the heroes of faith whose example should spur them to like loyalty now.
The assurance of things hoped for (elpizomenōn hupostasis). Hupostasis is a very common word from Aristotle on and comes from huphistēmi (hupo, under, histēmi, intransitive), what stands under anything (a building, a contract, a promise). See the philosophical use of it in Heb_1:3, the sense of assurance (une assurance certaine, Menegoz) in Heb_3:14, that steadiness of mind which holds one firm (2Co_9:4). It is common in the papyri in business documents as the basis or guarantee of transactions. “And as this is the essential meaning in Heb_11:1 we venture to suggest the translation ‘Faith is the title-deed of things hoped for’” (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.).
The proving of things not seen (pragmatōn elegchos ou blepomenōn). The only N.T. example of elegchos (except Textus Receptus in 2Ti_3:16 for elegmon). Old and common word from elegchō (Mat_18:15) for “proof” and then for “conviction.” Both uses occur in the papyri and either makes sense here, perhaps “conviction” suiting better though not in the older Greek.
RWP


Shalom.

J.

I think you are reading something into my posts that are not there. You seem to be arguing my statement of "plus trust" is insufficient. That is your view of the English word "trust" not the meaning of the Greek words.

 

[Jim]

I never said that it was, Jim, that your conclusion on a topic that you do not understand. No pun intended. Nevertheless salvation is a broad term used in the scriptures and is by no means limited to a time when one is saved from sin and condemnation, the only sense many even considers when the think of salvation/save/saved. I will not go into this again with you since we have many times over the years, to no avail.

If I am not mistaken, your interpretation of regeneration leaves the one regenerated in his sins. Your view, I think, of Acts 2:37 is an example of God's regenerating those who were "pricked in their heart". If that is truly regeneration, then it is only later, according to Peter, that their sins were forgiven. That cannot be true.

Jim, that's a oxymoron statement. Your statement makes no sense, and truly destroys the very meaning of election.

Yes, indeed it destroys your version of the very meaning of election. Your meaning of election is wrong.

Webster 1828:

1. The act of choosing; choice; the act of selecting one or more from others. Hence appropriately,

2. The act of choosing a person to fill an office or employment, by any manifestation of preference, as by ballot, uplifted hands or viva voce; as the election of a king, of a president, or a mayor.

Corruption in elections is the great enemy of freedom.

3. Choice; voluntary preference; free will; liberty to act or not. It is at his election to accept or refuse.

4. Power of choosing or selecting.

5. Discernment; discrimination; distinction.

To use men with much difference and election is good.

6. In theology, divine choice; predetermination of God, by which persons are distinguished as objects of mercy, become subjects of grace, are sanctified and prepared for heaven.

Red, there is nothing in the biblical definition of "choose" or "elect" that precludes a reason or criterion for the selection based upon what is being selected. That is a totally made-up requirement you have placed upon God.

There is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:5.

Jim, I knew that you had not, I just wanted you to say it. That has works screaming from every point you just made

That is because you do not understand what works Paul is speaking of in Romans 11:5-6 and elsewhere. Jesus said that believing in God is a work. Paul said our believing in God (a work) is credited to us for righteousness, i.e., being saved.

 

[Red Baker]

If I am not mistaken, your interpretation of regeneration leaves the one regenerated in his sins.

Jim, no way! Would say that Nicodemus was still in his sins? I surely would not though he may have never left the Pharisees, yet all through his life that we have a record of, he proved his regenerate spirit, much like many do on Christian forums, even though they may never leave what they are in! John 7:50-53; 19:38-42, brother, mark it well what the Spirit of God recorded for us concerning this righteous man.

Red, there is nothing in the biblical definition of "choose" or "elect" that precludes a reason or criterion for the selection based upon what is being selected. That is a totally made-up requirement you have placed upon God.

Romans 9:11​

“(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth”

Jim, you know better, and truly, I'm not sure why you are kicking against the pricks! But, God's word will indeed triumph over your rejection of God's truth. Save yourself the battle and submit!

 

[Johann]

I've been sick the past three weeks, much what the pope has, (only using him to show what I have, but, I'm treating mine myself, trusting God to heal me,) just haven't said anything~said that to say this, do not think anything if you see me slowing down to get better, but, truly it is hard for me to do nothing, even being sick. We must work while it is day, the night cometh when we will not be able to do so. Remember me in your prayers.

Pray you will get better soon brother.

J.

 

[civic]

I've been sick the past three weeks, much what the pope has, (only using him to show what I have, but, I'm treating mine myself, trusting God to heal me,) just haven't said anything~said that to say this, do not think anything if you see me slowing down to get better, but, truly it is hard for me to do nothing, even being sick. We must work while it is day, the night cometh when we will not be able to do so. Remember me in your prayers.

Get well soon my friend.