What Does “Another Gospel” Mean?

[Red Baker]

While we agree that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17), the question is whether this applies only to those who have already been born of God or if it is the means by which God grants faith to sinners. You assert that faith can only come to one who has already been regenerated, meaning that life must first be given before one can hear, believe, or obey. But does Scripture truly support this?

Yes it does. That the work of the Holy Spirit PRECEDES our believing is unequivocally established by:

2nd Thessalonians 2:13 ~”God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

Note that sanctification of the Spirit” comes before and makes possible “belief of the truth.” What then is the “sanctification of the Spirit”? We answer, the new birth. In Scripture sanctification always means separation, separation from something and unto something or someone.”

An example from the scriptures would be helpful:

Matthew 27:44​

“The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.”

Both of the thieves rail upon Christ at this point.

Luke 23:39-43~"And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

What caused this one thief to out of nowhere have a change of heart? This is put here for a reason and the reason, being is, that God quicken one of the thieves just before he he was put to death! And being quickened to life, his heart was turned toward Christ.

Question: why did Paul have a great desire to go to Spain? Did he desire to add to the elect's number that God had already ordained to eternal life, or, did he desire to preach Christ unto them to find God's elect, to impart unto them the knowledge that would agree with their new nature that God had quickened to life?

Romans 15:28​

“When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.”

Brother the gospel does not bring life, it brings to light where there is life!

2 Timothy 1:9​

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:”

How plain is this! The gospel bring spiritual life TO LIGHT where ever the gospel is preached, it also will manifest death! I'm coming back and address one point at a time. Thanks for your patience, I am doing this in-between some other work.

 

[Studyman]

Here again, it has been pointed out to you that the KJV, and others of like misinterpreted versions, is simply wrong in presenting the Greek πίστεως Χριστοῦ [pisteos Christos] as "faith OF Christ". I could give you the long explanation of why that phrase πίστεως Χριστοῦ [pisteos Christos] is not speaking of Christ's faith. I have done that many times before and I won't bother to do that again here. I will only say that the very few times in which the KJV (inappropriately) presents it as "faith of Christ" cannot supersede the many, many times in the NT that speaks of faith, faith in, believes, believe in, belief, and similar expressions where it can only be speaking of our faith IN God, our faith IN Jesus.

I don't know much about Augustine or other founders of popular religious philosophies promoted in this world God placed me in. And I have heard of this popular teaching that implies Jesus didn't have faith, and therefore it is wrong to strive for the Faith "in Jesus", or as it is also said, "Faith of Jesus".

In my understanding, Jesus had perfect faith, as it is written, "The Just shall live by Faith".

How can it be said that Jesus didn't have Faith in His Father? And why would I not also strive for that same perfect Faith?

It is also written:

Heb. 5: 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but "he" that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who "in the days of his flesh", when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet "learned he obedience" by the things which he suffered;

9 And being "made perfect", he "became" the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

It is also written:

Psalms 45: 6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of "thy kingdom" (The Lord's Christ) is a right sceptre. 7 Thou (Sceptre) lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore (Because of this) God, "thy" (Sceptre's) God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

How can it be true that the man of sorrows, the Jesus of the bible, came promoting that men shall live by Faith in God, a Faith they imply HE never lived by?

For me, if I "Yield myself" to God, and "Live by" His Words, as Jesus did, and as Jesus instructed me to do, am I not exhibiting my Faith "in" Jesus, by striving for the Faith that was "in" Jesus?

 

[Johann]

Yes it does. That the work of the Holy Spirit PRECEDES our believing is unequivocally established by:

2nd Thessalonians 2:13 ~”God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

Note that sanctification of the Spirit” comes before and makes possible “belief of the truth.” What then is the “sanctification of the Spirit”? We answer, the new birth. In Scripture sanctification always means separation, separation from something and unto something or someone.”

An example from the scriptures would be helpful:

Matthew 27:44​

“The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.”

Both of the thieves rail upon Christ at this point.


What caused this one thief to out of nowhere have a change of heart? This is put here for a reason and the reason, being is, that God quicken one of the thieves just before he he was put to death! And being quickened to life, his heart was turned toward Christ.

Question: why did Paul have a great desire to go to Spain? Did he desire to add to the elect's number that God had already ordained to eternal life, or, did he desire to preach Christ unto them to find God's elect, to impart unto them the knowledge that would agree with their new nature that God had quickened to life?

Romans 15:28​

“When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.”

Brother the gospel does not bring life, it brings to light where there is life!

2 Timothy 1:9​

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:”

How plain is this! The gospel bring spiritual life TO LIGHT where ever the gospel is preached, it also will manifest death! I'm coming back and address one point at a time. Thanks for your patience, I am doing this in-between some other work.

No problem, I am a patient man brother..

J.

 

[Studyman]

Yes it does. That the work of the Holy Spirit PRECEDES our believing is unequivocally established by:

2nd Thessalonians 2:13 ~”God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

It is important to post what is actually written, as opposed to carefully selecting parts of Paul's words in order to promote an agenda or philosophy. In this way the Holy scriptures teach us how to live, as opposed to men "using" parts of God's Word to justify how they live. This is a perfect example of this popular practice of "using" scripture. Look at how the message completely changes when more of Paul's words are considered.

2 Thess. 2: 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because "they received not" the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

See how this message from Paul, has nothing to do with promoting the Calvinist teaching that God chose men for destruction, or saving, based on nothing they do, from the very beginning.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned "who believed not the truth", but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Of course, God knows the end from the beginning. HE already knew who would choose life and who would choose death, from the foundation of the world. God knows, but we don't know. That is why men require Faith and Hope. That they might endure to the end. That they might be diligent to be found by Him without spot and blameless. That they might labor, that they may be accepted of Him. That they might be zealous for good works. That they might patiently continue in well doing, seeking God's Glory, Honor and immortality. That they might "press towards the High calling of God" that was In Christ Jesus. That they might repent and "Live by" Every Word of God.

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, "to the obtaining of the glory" of our Lord Jesus Christ. (The first to receive such Glory from God)

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Of course, God's Holy Spirit proceeds all life. But according to Scriptures, well, I'll let Peter tell you.

Acts 5: 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them "that obey him".

So here is the issue. You have adopted a religious philosophy where God gives select people His Holy Spirit, chosen based on nothing they do, and it is His Spirit which causes them to "Believe the Truth" and He also withholds His Spirit from men, chosen from the foundation of the world, based on nothing they do, that causes men to "receive not" the love of the Truth.

Although this philosophy you are promoting is a popular one, and you can "use" selective parts of the Holy scriptures to support this seductive philosophy. But as a person can clearly see, when more of Paul's Words are considered, he isn't even implying the philosophy you are "using" parts of his words to promote.

Note that sanctification of the Spirit” comes before and makes possible “belief of the truth.” What then is the “sanctification of the Spirit”? We answer, the new birth. In Scripture sanctification always means separation, separation from something and unto something or someone.”

Again, when a person reads all of Paul's Epistle, and not just the 1/2 a verse that you selectively "Separated" from the rest of his letter, anyone can see that Paul isn't even implying that God withheld the capacity to "Believe of the Truth" from some and then punished them when they didn't “belief of the truth.”

Of course, such a philosophy is absurd, and can only be promoted by carefully selecting parts of Paul's Letter, while ignoring the rest of his words. Nevertheless, as prophesied, there are "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who promote this absurdity.

I advocate only that a man considers "all" that is written, and that men should obey God, not the various religious sects and businesses which exist in the religious system of this world God placed me in. And hope for the promise of His Holy spirit, that God gives to those who "Yield themselves" servants to obey Him.

 

[Matthias]

In the Old Testament the primary word for repentance means “to turn back” (šûb). Jeremiah used the term when he declared that Jerusalem “refused to repent”. God’s people refused to turn away from their sinful actions and return to him.

O Lord, do not your eyes look on the truth? [They have meant to please You outwardly, but You look on their hearts.] You have stricken them, but they have not grieved; You have consumed them, but they have refused to take correction or instruction. They have made their faces harder than a rock, they have refused to repent and return to You. Jeremiah 5:3

One resource described the Hebrew word this way: “The basic meaning of return or change in direction is used metaphorically to express repentance as a change in direction away from sinful actions toward obedience to God.”

In the New Testament the key words are the noun “repentance” (metanoia) and the verb “to repent” (metanoeō). John the Baptist and Jesus began their public ministries by declaring that people should repent.

They used the imperative form of the word, which means they were issuing a command. Jesus denounced the cities that did not repent, which implies that they could repent but refused to do so.

In his sermon at Pentecost, Peter identified Jesus as the crucified and risen Christ and commanded that people repent. In his sermon at Mars Hill, Paul declared that God “commands all people everywhere to repent”.

Repentance has been defined as “the acknowledgement and condemnation of one’s own sins, coupled with a turning to God.”

In the story of the prodigal son. The younger son evidenced a change in his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Godly sorrow leads to repentance, which results in salvation..

 

[Red Baker]

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth forever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."

You argue that the "word of God" here refers to God's testimony or record, not to the preaching of the gospel as a means by which sinners are born again.

But does this interpretation align with what Peter actually states? He explicitly says that we are born again by the word of God, and then immediately identifies this word as the gospel that was preached to you. This means that the preached gospel is the instrument through which God brings about the new birth.

If regeneration precedes faith, then how can Peter say that the new birth comes by means of the gospel?
The text does not say that a person must be regenerated first and then hear the gospel; rather, it teaches that the gospel itself is the means by which new birth takes place.

Brother Johnna,

What I said, was this: in what sense should we understand Peter's words recorded for us in 1st Peter 1:23-25? We must practice what men of God have always done when teaching God's children his word. For the sake of time you can read Nehemiah 8:1-7, for now, consider:

Nehemiah 8:8​

“So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.”

Paul said basically the same thing here:

2nd Timothy 2:15​

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

Johnna, as you well know, the word of God is to be taken culminative, since the scriptures are one cohesive whole teaching the same truth from one book to another, from one prophet/apostle to another, with each agreeing with each other perfectly. No scriptures is in a vacuum, nor should they be used in that manner. Truth stated by one prophet/apostle never contradicts previous truth; each scripture from one prophet to another concerning any truth only clarified each prophet/apostle ~if there is no reconciliation, with a perfect flow of truth, then we have not as of yet reach the truth as God intended for us know, there is work yet to be done by us.

Knowing man's depraved nature by conception/birth, it is imperative, if there is hope for man, that God must regenerate him/her, and freely give him eternal life, base upon Jesus Christ being a surety for them. More on this point later. You said:

"But does this interpretation align with what Peter actually states? He explicitly says that we are born again by the word of God, and then immediately identifies this word as the gospel that was preached to you. This means that the preached gospel is the instrument through which God brings about the new birth."

Brother, the only source used in the new birth is the power of God, God is the only active person working, man is totally passive.

Ephesians 1:19,20​

“And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,"

If we believe the gospel, God worked the exceeding greatness of His mighty power in us. This great and glorious power did things to His Son (1:20), which He also did to us (2:1-6).

It takes further revelation by the Spirit for any to fully grasp the work of God in regeneration. Do we fully understand? By nature we had no inclination or desire for God ~ we all much preferred the devil himself as our leader, and we all followed the course of the world (2:1-3).

It would not matter if one rose from the dead and came to warn us of judgment waiting (Luke 16:31). It would not matter if you were given every possible environmental advantage (Is 26:10). Again, listen to John on the subject of human blindness to Christ (John 3:3; 6:44; 8:45; 10:26).

You also reference 1 Corinthians 2:1 and 1 John 5:9-11, emphasizing that God's testimony is the only record by which we know the truth. I do not disagree that God's testimony is vital, but we must ask: how does this testimony reach sinners?

Coming back and address this question.

 

[Marvelloustime]

His faith was counted to HIM as righteousness .
Abraham BELIEVED GOD .
many cliam to beleive in Him but do not BELIEVE HIS WORDS .
Thus the cry to warn all about not following any other gospel , or jesus is a dire necessity .
For many in this day and age both cliam to Believe in Christ Jesus
and yet follow another version , and that there version of theirs , CONTRADICTS that there BIBLICAL ONE .
GOD cannot , CHRIST cannot , the SPIRIT cannot speak a lie .
Yet many seem to follow such who do so and yet believe its GOD , THE WORD , THE SPIRIT they be hearing from .
GOD cannot LIE . just a friendly reminder . HE WILL NOT DENY HIMSELF , HIS WORDS . again another friendly reminder .
As i am sure you already KNOW this my friend . It is bible time in the building .

@TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY

 

[Marvelloustime]

Ye shall not hate your neighbor in your heart you shall in any way correct him and not allow sin upon him .
That just summed up the answer to all them questions my friend .
If we know one is in error and sin we ought to correct them and not allow them to remain in error , in sin .
Now many can quoate the gospel and yet they still preach another jesus .

@TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY

 

[Johann]

Coming back and address this question.

Is this how you read the Scriptures @Red Baker

CALVINISM’s CONFUSION
AN APPLICATION OF OUR RECENT SEMINAR
“In whom also we have obtained an inheritance,
being predestinated according to the purpose of him
who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will”

~ Ephesians 1:11

1. Introduction
a. Calvinism is an example of salvation confused – an application of our recent seminar

b. The major contention  is everything predetermined by God? (fate/free will is not new)

c. Calvinist result: every sin decreed by God; some determined to be saved others damned

d. There are not only 2 options: Calvinist or Arminian (no, we are not Pelagian -full or semi)

e. Its strength is taken from Paul  grace, predestination, before the world, not works

f. Why Christians debate it? Due to the question, “how can I be sure I am saved?”

g. There is predestination, there is election, there is grace, but we are not Calvinist.

h. Terms need defined – timing needs addressed – else there is confusion.

2. Setting the Terms
a. Predestination is a Bible word and exclusively Pauline: Rom 8:28-29, Eph 1:5, 1:11
i. Predestinate ~def. To set the destiny before.
ii. Predestination always according to the purpose of God – mystery or prophecy
iii. Predestination is not speaking about your next accident, sin, or disease.

iv. Calvin said that the mystery was God’s predestination of some to damnation

b. Election is a Bible word that means “to choose or chosen” – who are the elect?
i. Biblical election refers to God’s choice acc. to his own will to fulfill his purpose

ii. Israel is God’s chosen people (elect) his prophetic purpose –Is 45:4, Mt 24:22-24
iii. Christ is God’s chosen one (elect) – Isa 42:1, 1 Pet 2:6

iv. The only time “foreordained” mentioned is about Christ – 1 Pet 1:19-20
v. Not - ‘are you the elect’ - but are you in the chosen Christ or the chosen nation?

vi. God chose to fulfill his purpose in Christ – Eph 1:9-10 - 3x we are in Christ -1:4-6

vii. Calvin said election was God’s arbitrary choosing of who will be damned

viii. Calvin said that his doctrine of election is the assurance of salvation

c. The mystery of Christ is you in Christ – Christ in you – Eph 3:6, Col 1:28

i. Calvin said the mystery was of God’s predestination of who will be saved

d. Calvinists and Arminians are wrong to find our terms of salvation (gospel) in Prophecy

3. The Problem of Timing and Delivery (When)
a. When do you possess salvation? Now or in the future.

b. Calvin taught it was an error to believe you possess all the blessings of Christ
c. Calvinism teaches that when Christ died his blessings immediately given to the elect
i. Arminians say his blessings immediately offered to all (both are wrong)

d. The delivery is different than the action needed to obtain it. (Provision/possession)

i. At the cross – no one was offered salvation, instead, by the cross – Eph 2:16
ii. Salvation declared after the purpose made, and act performed – 2 Tim 1:8-11
iii. When do we obtain our inheritance? Not before the world began – Eph 1:11-14
e. Calvinism brings confusion to the terms of salvation (gospel), and when it is delivered.

From Grace Ambassadors.

J.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Is this how you read the Scriptures @Red Baker

CALVINISM’s CONFUSION
AN APPLICATION OF OUR RECENT SEMINAR
“In whom also we have obtained an inheritance,
being predestinated according to the purpose of him
who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will”

~ Ephesians 1:11

1. Introduction
a. Calvinism is an example of salvation confused – an application of our recent seminar

b. The major contention  is everything predetermined by God? (fate/free will is not new)

c. Calvinist result: every sin decreed by God; some determined to be saved others damned

d. There are not only 2 options: Calvinist or Arminian (no, we are not Pelagian -full or semi)

e. Its strength is taken from Paul  grace, predestination, before the world, not works

f. Why Christians debate it? Due to the question, “how can I be sure I am saved?”

g. There is predestination, there is election, there is grace, but we are not Calvinist.

h. Terms need defined – timing needs addressed – else there is confusion.

2. Setting the Terms
a. Predestination is a Bible word and exclusively Pauline: Rom 8:28-29, Eph 1:5, 1:11
i. Predestinate ~def. To set the destiny before.
ii. Predestination always according to the purpose of God – mystery or prophecy
iii. Predestination is not speaking about your next accident, sin, or disease.

iv. Calvin said that the mystery was God’s predestination of some to damnation

b. Election is a Bible word that means “to choose or chosen” – who are the elect?
i. Biblical election refers to God’s choice acc. to his own will to fulfill his purpose

ii. Israel is God’s chosen people (elect) his prophetic purpose –Is 45:4, Mt 24:22-24
iii. Christ is God’s chosen one (elect) – Isa 42:1, 1 Pet 2:6

iv. The only time “foreordained” mentioned is about Christ – 1 Pet 1:19-20
v. Not - ‘are you the elect’ - but are you in the chosen Christ or the chosen nation?

vi. God chose to fulfill his purpose in Christ – Eph 1:9-10 - 3x we are in Christ -1:4-6

vii. Calvin said election was God’s arbitrary choosing of who will be damned

viii. Calvin said that his doctrine of election is the assurance of salvation

c. The mystery of Christ is you in Christ – Christ in you – Eph 3:6, Col 1:28

i. Calvin said the mystery was of God’s predestination of who will be saved

d. Calvinists and Arminians are wrong to find our terms of salvation (gospel) in Prophecy

3. The Problem of Timing and Delivery (When)
a. When do you possess salvation? Now or in the future.

b. Calvin taught it was an error to believe you possess all the blessings of Christ
c. Calvinism teaches that when Christ died his blessings immediately given to the elect
i. Arminians say his blessings immediately offered to all (both are wrong)

d. The delivery is different than the action needed to obtain it. (Provision/possession)

i. At the cross – no one was offered salvation, instead, by the cross – Eph 2:16
ii. Salvation declared after the purpose made, and act performed – 2 Tim 1:8-11
iii. When do we obtain our inheritance? Not before the world began – Eph 1:11-14
e. Calvinism brings confusion to the terms of salvation (gospel), and when it is delivered.

From Grace Ambassadors.

J.

Here is a simple way my friend .
Tell me HOW can a man be saved . What did the early church apostle preach , what did JESUS say .
LORD who then can be saved , WITH MAN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE . screech the brakes , what did HE SAY .
SO know this ALL OTHER religoins DO SERVE EL SATAN no matter how much lovey do workey do they tried to do .
NOW to answer the question . GOD SENT the SON so that all who do , NOT REJECT , BUT BELEIVE
will be saved and not perish .
SAVE YOURSELVES from this untoward generation . Cause it sure aint TOWARDS GOD NOW IS IT .
SO lets see what paul and silas said and then compare it to the so called beloved leader and leaders of satans interfaith .
WHEN HE asked paul what must i do to be saved
PAUL TOLD THE ONLY TRUTH NECESSARY to be saved . AND YOU CAN BET THE Word BELEIVE WAS IN IT .
AS HE SAID BELEIVE YE ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
and now lets see what satans right hand men who preach interfaith have to say
OH WE SERVING THE SAME GOD in different ways . SO MUCH FOR LOVING THEM TO GOD . THEY ALL MEN of satan
AND you can bet it will be a cold day in a very hot place LONG before i say otherwise . AMEN .
WE been duped johann . DUPED real bad but many seem to love the lie . Not this lamb . i expose the lie and shall continue
to POINT TO HE ALONE WHO CAN SAVE with the reminder BELIEVE or perish . cause if one rejects
Even JESUS said shake the dust of those feet as a testimony against them . EVER WONDER WHY
paul and barnbas did just that to those who had rejected , had failed to beleive on JESUS the CHRIST .
THEY sure didnt LIE as did these interfaith leaders and this pope . ANTI CHRIST is at work and we had better watch out

 

[Titus]

I firmly defend the position that a man (you, me, everyone) can hold hundreds of illusory or  mistaken views about  God and his Word, and still be able to repent and enter the Kingdom of God.

Not what the Bible teaches.

About God : John 8:24,
- therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins, for if you do not believe I am He, you will die in your sins

About His word : 2 John 1:9-11,
- whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ hath not God,
he who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son

- if anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine do not recieve him into your house nor greet him

- for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds


Only one gospel that saves, Romans 1:16.

Teaching another doctrine not found in Jesus' new testament gospel is another gospel, Galatians 1:8

 

[Jim]

Romans 1:16​

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”

Clearly, Paul is saying that believing is the prerequisite for the power of God unto salvation to be realized. Belief, then salvation, i.e., Justification and regeneration. The believer is saved. The believer is justified. The believer is born again.

 

[Red Baker]

Clearly, Paul is saying that believing is the prerequisite for the power of God unto salvation to be realized. Belief, then salvation, i.e., Justification and regeneration. The believer is saved. The believer is justified. The believer is born again.

I'll get to you just a few ahead of you at the moment.

 

[Red Baker]

You also reference 1 Corinthians 2:1 and 1 John 5:9-11, emphasizing that God's testimony is the only record by which we know the truth. I do not disagree that God's testimony is vital, but we must ask: how does this testimony reach sinners?

Paul answers this in Romans 10:14: "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
The logical sequence here is clear-hearing comes before believing, and believing comes before calling upon the Lord.
There is no indication that one must be regenerated before they can hear and believe.

"how does this testimony reach sinners?'~My brother, the same way God called Abraham alone (Isaiah 51:2) while living (as an heathen) in Mesopotamia, which is now part of modern-day Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Turkey. Consider:

The ERROR​

Most hold gospel was given mainly for preaching to saves the lost, rescues the perishing, and so fills heaven. Nothing can be farther from the truth. The common scheme is God wants to save everybody so bad that He sent His Son to pay for all their sins, and the Holy Spirit tries to get everyone to believe; so salvation is possible for all, if they would but cooperate with God’s desires.

Gospel preaching is understood and treated as a sacrament for Baptists (I'll speak for them, since I have lived among them all of by life as a Christian) an outward sign that conveys inward grace – to bring eternal life to lost wicked men. Nothing can be farther from the truth.

Their doctrine may be reduced to decisional regeneration – the unregenerate and unsaved person may become regenerated with a reservation in heaven by making a mere decision in response to hearing the gospel presented by any sort of means. They sing songs like “Rescue the Perishing,” “Throw Out the Lifeline,” “There’s a New Name written Down in Glory,” and so forth.

Organizations to “spread the gospel” are legion with constant financial pleas. Arminians propose lost men are ignorant and only need to believe the gospel to be saved. They deny total depravity and exalt the free will of man in God’s plan to save all. A mere emotional moment of “deciding for Christ” is sufficient for eternal life.

On the other hand ~ Calvinists (I have also lived among this group most of my Christian life, so I can speak with truth and understanding) propose lost men are dead and will by necessity believe the gospel to be saved.

Teaching total depravity and unconditional election, they still require man’s faith. Mostly you hear this coming from among the Reformed community of believers. They defend this contradiction by calling faith the instrument of salvation; but once faith is necessary, we ask how much? how long? how correct? how alone?

Because we hold eternal life an unconditional gift of God by election and predestination in Christ with all the operations of grace performed by Divine Power without a single loss, we are ridiculed for removing any purpose or value from preaching the gospel.

Some holding our doctrine became Fatalists to most human responsibility. Some holding our doctrine became Antinomians to good works after salvation. Some holding our doctrine became Universalists of a false hope for most all men. Some holding our doctrine became opposed to evangelism or preaching to others. Many say they see both God’s sovereignty and man’s free will taught in Scripture, but they choose to exalt man and make salvation their own work. We choose rather to exalt Jesus Christ alone and reconcile verses about faith and works as evidence, not conditions. The righteous are made sad by not hearing the glories of an all-sufficient Saviour. The wicked are strengthened by a false promise of life from decisional salvation.

The TRUTH​

Eternal life is not merely a possibility for any or all; it is rather a certainty for the elect. God chose some in Christ Jesus before the world began to be saved (Eph 1:3-12). God guarantees all the operations of grace for their glorification (Rom 8:29-39). God sent Jesus Christ to die a Substitute for these elect (John 6:38-39; 10:11,15). God the Spirit regenerates Christ’s sheep by His Will (John 1:13; 3:8; 5:25-29). God designed this glorious doctrine of salvation for His glory (Romans 9:22-24). God wrote their names in the book of life before the world began (Re 13:8; 17:8). The final salvation of all the elect is guaranteed in the covenant of redemption, and there is not the slightest possibility of a single one of them being lost.
Eternal life is not offered to any on conditions, but guaranteed to some freely. The certainty of eternal life is based in the Faithfulness and Grace of God in Christ; it is not based in the cooperative efforts, faith, or works of sinners.

The gospel is not the power of God itself, but rather the good news about God’s power. The gospel is good news – it is the revelation of God’s glorious gift of salvation. Because verses are abused repeatedly for their sound, it is hard to see the sense.

The gospel preached in simplicity is only received such by the saved (I Cor 1:18). The gospel reveals God, whom they would not know by nature (I Cor 1:19-21). The gospel reveals the power and wisdom of God in Jesus Christ (I Cor 1:22-24). So we easily see the gospel as the good news of God’s power (Rom 1:16-17), for it reveals God’s righteousness from the faith of preachers to the faith of hearers. Jesus secured life and immortality; the gospel brings it TO LIGHT (II Ti 1:9-10). Jesus Christ reconciled us to God; the gospel is the WORD OF it (II Cor 5:18-21). The gospel purges consciences from sins by providing the knowledge of a sacrifice already made for all sins (Hebrews 9:9,14; 10:2,22; I Peter 3:21). It does not do any purging itself – it reveals the good news about how we were purged. The gospel was preached and should be preached to all who will hear for the elect’s sake.

Consider Paul’s great desire to preach the gospel to Roman saints (Rom 1:15-17). Consider Paul’s standard practice of preaching in synagogues (Acts 17:1-3,10,17). Consider Paul’s other preaching beside rivers and in markets (Acts 16:13; 17:17). Consider Paul’s preaching at Antioch and the condition for belief (Acts 13:48). Consider Paul’s declaration he endured all things for the elect (II Timothy 2:10). Consider Paul’s bondage to thank God for choosing Thessalonians (II Thes 2:13).

If John 3:16 is the sum and substance of the gospel, why is there not a single use of the word “love” in the book of Acts? Why didn’t Paul offer it to all openly?

The gospel has no value or purpose for the unsaved, for they do not care for its message. The gospel cannot help the lost, for their god has blinded them to it (II Cor 4:1-7). The gospel cannot help the perishing, for it is foolishness to them (I Cor 1:17-21). The gospel cannot help the perishing, for it manifests their death (II Cor 2:14-17). The gospel cannot help the perishing, for they hate the truth (II Thess 2:9-12). The gospel cannot help the natural man, for he cannot receive it (I Cor 2:6-16). The gospel cannot help the man in the flesh (John 3:6; Romans 8:5-8; Gal 5:17). The gospel cannot help the man without faith, so avoid them (II Thess 3:1-2). The gospel cannot help those not of God and not His sheep (John 8:47; 10:26-27). The gospel cannot help those not already enlightened (Matt 11:27; Jn 6:44-45,65).

We have thirty or so more references we could provide but enough for now.

 

[Red Baker]

Additionally, Ephesians 1:13 states: "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."

Notice the order: first they heard the word of truth, then they believed, and only after believing were they sealed with the Holy Spirit. This contradicts the idea that regeneration must precede faith.

I have explained this verse in another thread recently, but no problem to do so one more time.

But is it not the faith itself which is here said to be sealed by the Holy Spirit? If so, faith goes before the sealing. I answer, there are two operations of the Spirit in faith, corresponding to the two parts of which faith consists, as it enlightens, and as it establishes the mind. The commencement of faith is knowledge: the completion of it is a firm and steady conviction, which admits of no opposing doubt. Both, I have said, are the work of the Spirit. No wonder, then, if Paul should declare that the Ephesians, who received by faith the truth of the gospel, were confirmed in that faith by the seal of the Holy Spirit. All this comes by the hearing of faith, this "is the fruit of the already in dwelling of the Spirit," in our new man. We labor for the sense of the scriptures not to find sound bites to support our position. The biblical sense of the scriptures give so much more peace to our trouble conscience than any sound bites could possibly gives.

If regeneration must precede faith, how do you explain Jesus' own words in John 20:31? "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
Here, believing comes first, and life follows. If your position were correct, this verse would need to say, "that having life, ye might believe," but it does not.

I provided the sense of this scriptures above already, but no problem to do so again. First Johann, look at the verse:

John 20:31~ "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
We ask, in light of many scriptures given below, do you truly think John was writing to the unregenerate? Or, the God's children? Not to the unsaved, never, impossible!

The gospel has no value or purpose for the unsaved, for they do not care for its message. The gospel cannot help the lost, for their god has blinded them to it (II Cor 4:1-7). The gospel cannot help the perishing, for it is foolishness to them (I Cor 1:17-21). The gospel cannot help the perishing, for it manifests their death (II Cor 2:14-17). The gospel cannot help the perishing, for they hate the truth (II Thess 2:9-12). The gospel cannot help the natural man, for he cannot receive it (I Cor 2:6-16). The gospel cannot help the man in the flesh (John 3:6; Romans 8:5-8; Gal 5:17). The gospel cannot help the man without faith, so avoid them (II Thess 3:1-2). The gospel cannot help those not of God and not His sheep (John 8:47; 10:26-27). The gospel cannot help those not already enlightened (Matt 11:27; Jn 6:44-45,65).

So, in light of so many scriptures we must look for the true sense of what John is saying, and it is this as I said above: John 20:31~ "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." Or, the KNOWLEDGE OF LIFE that you profess to believe in. The scriptures are given that we may know that we have in possession eternal life that Jesus Christ secured for us by his life of faith and obedience. I have no problem of understanding what the apostle John is saying to usward, and neither should you, who are believers. He is not writings to the Cartels, and gang members, terrorist groups, etc., throughout this world, but to righteous men and women who believe.

 

[Red Baker]

Let us reason together, testing all things by God's Word, and seeing whether regeneration truly precedes faith or whether faith, as Scripture teaches, is the means by which we are born again through the living and abiding Word of God.

Yes...I think I'm missing a post by you, if so, show me and I will address it...Thanks

 

[Red Baker]

Calvinism brings confusion to the terms of salvation (gospel), and when it is delivered.

From Grace Ambassadors.

J.

Talking about confusion, this guy is talking about himself!

 

[Johann]

Talking about confusion, this guy is talking about himself!

But you are a "high" Calvinist-correct?

J.

 

[Red Baker]

But you are a "high" Calvinist-correct?

J.

 

[Johann]

The ERROR

Your argument is exegetically flawed because you selectively isolates certain passages while ignoring the full biblical witness on the nature of the gospel, salvation, and the responsibility of human beings to respond to God’s call. It presupposes a form of determinism that does not align with the scriptural testimony that God calls all to repentance and faith.

1. The Gospel is for the Unsaved, Not Just the Elect (II Cor 4:1-7)
Claim: "The gospel has no value or purpose for the unsaved, for they do not care for its message. The gospel cannot help the lost, for their god has blinded them to it."

Paul, in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, states that the gospel is veiled to those who are perishing, but this does not mean it is powerless or lacks purpose. The "god of this world" (Satan) blinds unbelievers, but this blindness does not negate human responsibility or God’s initiative in calling all to repentance (Acts 17:30; 2 Peter 3:9). Paul himself was once spiritually blind (Acts 9:17-18), yet the gospel broke through. The very fact that Paul preaches the gospel to the perishing (v. 5) proves it is meant for them.

2. The Gospel is Foolishness to the Lost, Yet It Saves Them (I Cor 1:17-21)
Claim: "The gospel cannot help the perishing, for it is foolishness to them."

Paul states that the gospel appears foolish to those who are perishing (1 Cor 1:18), but he does not say it cannot save them. Rather, he contrasts human wisdom with God’s wisdom and affirms that "it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe" (1 Cor 1:21). This clearly shows that the gospel is the means by which unbelievers are saved when they believe.

3. The Gospel Does Not Manifest Death to the Lost Only (II Cor 2:14-17)
Claim: "The gospel cannot help the perishing, for it manifests their death."

Paul speaks of the gospel being an aroma of life to those who believe and an aroma of death to those who reject it (2 Cor 2:15-16). This is not a denial that the gospel is meant for all; rather, it describes the response of individuals. Those who reject it bring condemnation upon themselves (John 3:19), but this does not mean they were predestined to damnation without an opportunity to believe.

4. The Lost Hate Truth, But Can Be Drawn to It (II Thess 2:9-12)
Claim: "The gospel cannot help the perishing, for they hate the truth."

The passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 refers to those who "received not the love of the truth," meaning they had an opportunity but rejected it. This supports human responsibility rather than a deterministic view of salvation. John 3:16-17 declares that Christ came to save the world, and only those who reject Him remain in condemnation.

5. The Natural Man Cannot Receive the Things of God—Without the Spirit (I Cor 2:6-16)
Claim: "The gospel cannot help the natural man, for he cannot receive it."

This passage describes the inability of the unspiritual man to understand spiritual things, but it does not mean that unbelievers are incapable of responding to the gospel. Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit convicts the world (John 16:8), meaning He enables unbelievers to turn to Christ (Acts 26:18). Cornelius, though not yet regenerate, responded to God’s call (Acts 10), demonstrating that God draws the lost.

6. The Man in the Flesh Can Be Born Again (John 3:6; Romans 8:5-8; Gal 5:17)
Claim: "The gospel cannot help the man in the flesh."

John 3:6 emphasizes the necessity of the new birth, but it does not state that the "man in the flesh" cannot believe. Jesus calls Nicodemus to be born again (John 3:3), implying the necessity of personal response. Romans 8:5-8 contrasts those who live according to the flesh with those in the Spirit, but Paul immediately follows with the call to be led by the Spirit (Romans 8:13-14), reinforcing human responsibility.

7. The Gospel is for All, Even Those Without Faith (II Thess 3:1-2)
Claim: "The gospel cannot help the man without faith, so avoid them."

The passage warns about wicked men who actively oppose the faith, not about all unbelievers. Jesus preached to those without faith (Mark 2:17), and Paul sought to persuade men (Acts 18:4; 2 Cor 5:11). Avoiding false teachers does not mean withholding the gospel from all unbelievers.

8. Jesus Came to Call Sinners, Not the Already Enlightened (John 8:47; 10:26-27)
Claim: "The gospel cannot help those not of God and not His sheep."

John 8:47 describes those who refuse to hear Christ because of their hardened hearts, but it does not mean they could never believe. Many Jews rejected Jesus, yet others believed (John 12:42). John 10:26-27 speaks of Jesus’ sheep recognizing His voice, but He also calls people to become His sheep (John 10:16). Paul explicitly states that faith comes by hearing (Romans 10:17), meaning those who were previously not sheep can become sheep through the gospel.

9. Enlightenment Comes Through the Gospel, Not Before It (Matt 11:27; John 6:44-45, 65)
Claim: "The gospel cannot help those not already enlightened."

Matthew 11:27 refers to Jesus revealing the Father to those He wills, but this does not negate human response (Matt 11:28-30). John 6:44 states that no one comes to Jesus unless drawn by the Father, yet this drawing is universal (John 12:32). The gospel itself is the means by which enlightenment comes (2 Cor 4:6).

10. John 20:31 is Evangelistic, Not Merely Confirmatory
Claim: "John 20:31 is not evangelistic but only to affirm believers in their knowledge of eternal life."

John 20:31 states: "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." The verb πιστεύητε ("might believe") is in the subjunctive, indicating a purpose clause—John’s Gospel was written so that people might come to believe. This is an evangelistic statement. John also emphasizes in John 3:16 that God’s love is for the whole world.

The Gospel is the Power of God for Salvation to All Who Believe

Romans 1:16 explicitly states that the gospel is "the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth." The lost are not beyond the reach of the gospel; rather, they are the very ones Christ came to save (Luke 19:10). Your assertion that the gospel has "no value" for the unsaved contradicts Christ’s Great Commission (Matthew 28:19-20) and the apostolic preaching (Acts 17:30; 1 Timothy 2:4). The gospel is to be preached to all, for God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30).

Isolated verses out of context is not going to work @Red Baker and I'm not closing this door.

Should you wish we can go through all the verses you have posted, including the paradoxical verses.

Johann.