What Does “Another Gospel” Mean?

[civic]

That is nonsensical and reveals a deliberate ignorance of the definition of the terms. It cannot be "100% of God" and "not 100% of God" at the same time. You can argue "Monergistic" and "Synergistic" do not apply to salvation, but it cannot be both "Monergistic and Synergistic" ... that is like a "Married Bachelor".

God is the Savior- God saves those who believe- God doesn't believe for man. That is mans responsibility to believe and receive the gospel. God saves = monergism- man believes= synergism. A relationship is a two way street, not a one way.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That is nonsensical and reveals a deliberate ignorance of the definition of the terms. It cannot be "100% of God" and "not 100% of God" at the same time. You can argue "Monergistic" and "Synergistic" do not apply to salvation, but it cannot be both "Monergistic and Synergistic" ... that is like a "Married Bachelor".

Like a typical Calvinist, you can't process what I said. You've never considered the possibility.

Using your logic, Jesus can't possibly be God and man. I expect you to deny the Holy Trinity at any moment using the same reasoning above.

What I said is true. Those words are theological distinctions. They came out of Protestant theology. Have you ever researched the origins of words? I can tell you haven't.

There are principles of monogenism and synergism that are both true. The fact you can't see this is proof of you're limited theology.

 

[praise_yeshua]

John 6:44 [per my sig] is where my theology comes from, so those "others" are John and Paul.

I've tried to engage you on this for a long time. Contrary to what @Red Baker claimed, this all about Calvinism. You're a Calvinist. He is a Calvinist. What you believe came from Calvin but has its origins in Augustine and those who rejected Jesus Christ because they believed they were "chosen".

Isn't it nice that you both believe you're "chosen" contrary to fact?

 

[atpollard]

OP: Words have meaning. When people use words but change the meanings to suit their agenda, that creates something that LOOKS like a true GOSPEL but is really "ANOTHER GOSPEL". The Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons with their song-and-dance around who Jesus is being classic examples.

[I did not come to THIS topic to debate C&A ... I am a Particular Baptist and not even a Classic Calvinist. This was supposed to be about GOSPEL and SALVATION not "WHAK a CALVINIST".]

 

[praise_yeshua]

OP: Words have meaning. When people use words but change the meanings to suit their agenda, that creates something that LOOKS like a true GOSPEL but is really "ANOTHER GOSPEL". The Jegovah's Witnesses and Mormons with their song-and-dance around who Jesus is being classic examples.

[I did not come to THIS topic to debate C&A ... I am a Particular Baptist and not even a Classic Calvinist. This was supposed to be about GOSPEL and SALVATION not "WHAK a CALVINIST".]

If my memory is true.....you're the one that started talking about monergism. If you going to use those words, then be prepared to deal with them.

If you believe that you were "chosen".... then that is part of the gospel you preach. In fact, it is the central aspect of your gospel. It doesn't begin with Christ. It begins with you and Christ is your servant.

 

[Red Baker]

they mock God and HIS Judgments as if HE were a man inferior to them, and His Judgments unworthy of their honor and respect, like you do here, and they mock those who "Yield themselves" to Him. Neither Jesus, nor Paul ever behaved in this manner, nor did they teach others to mock God, or those who believe Him, in this way.

I will not finish your post today, but will certainly do so, the Lord willing by tomorrow.

Studyman, I see you still have trouble being honest, which for a man that claims he can live without sinning, puts you into the company of Pharisees that the Jesus Jesus warned his disciples of. No one is mocking God, but will expose men who trust in themselves that they are righteous will despising others and their truth.

Luke 18:11​

“The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.”

Paul doesn't warn about men who "Yield themselves" to God and their bodies as instruments of righteousness unto God, in Galatians.

Your confidence is more in your flesh, than trusting solely in Jesus as the surety of God's elect ~ his faith, obedience, and righteousness secured for his elect and we in him as members of his elect body.

Philippians 3:1-4~"Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

All, who teach that in his flesh, he has the power to believe, repent, and live according to the word of is a two legged dog, per Paul that we are to beware of.

Galatians 2:20,21​

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

In the new man that was created within me after the image of Jesús Christ, I live by faith, which faith, Jesus secured for each and every child of God's promises! In my flesh by nature dwelleth no good thing, this flesh is at enmity against the God of heaven, to teach otherwise is to teach another gospel that falls under God's curse. The true gospel teaches that Jesus Christ alone secured eternal life for the children of God's oath and promises.

I'm coming back in the morning.

 

[Jim]

That is nonsensical and reveals a deliberate ignorance of the definition of the terms. It cannot be "100% of God" and "not 100% of God" at the same time. You can argue "Monergistic" and "Synergistic" do not apply to salvation, but it cannot be both "Monergistic and Synergistic" ... that is like a "Married Bachelor".

I would guess that your definition of synergistic is wrong. Most who ascribe to monergism get the definition of synergism wrong, saying that the synergist believes he is contributing to being saved. That is false.

 

[atpollard]

I would guess that your definition of synergistic is wrong.

You would be wrong. I learned my synergism from Church of God of Anderson Indiana (the OTHER Church of God ... Wesleyan Holiness Movement in origin). I just do not believe it for Biblical reasons (thus 'Particular Baptist' - cause that is what I believe Scripture teaches).

I firmly believe the C&A debate accomplishes NOTHING, so I don't care what side you fall on (another Baptist thing called Individual Soul Liberty: You answer to God and Scripture for your beliefs and not to any creed or body of men). So we Baptists have C&A worshiping side by side in most Baptist Churches.

We fight over the style of worship music or the color of the new carpet.

 

[Jim]

You would be wrong. I learned my synergism from Church of God of Anderson Indiana (the OTHER Church of God ... Wesleyan Holiness Movement in origin). I just do not believe it for Biblical reasons (thus 'Particular Baptist' - cause that is what I believe Scripture teaches).

I firmly believe the C&A debate accomplishes NOTHING, so I don't care what side you fall on (another Baptist thing called Individual Soul Liberty: You answer to God and Scripture for your beliefs and not to any creed or body of men). So we Baptists have C&A worshiping side by side in most Baptist Churches.

We fight over the style of worship music or the color of the new carpet.

You said you didn't believe in it and you said I would be wrong, but then you didn't give us your definition of synergism. could you give us your definition.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You said you didn't believe in it and you said I would be wrong, but then you didn't give us your definition of synergism. could you give us your definition.

His issue is that he accepted the argument between Calvinism and Arminianism as being fact. Both sides are wrong. It is largely Protestant issue itself. Baptists pretend they're not Protestants.

I don't fit in anywhere but I'm closer to what is generally considered "Orthodoxy" among the first century church "Catholic". I accept very little church history post 3rd century as being relative to the conversation for the minds of men.

 

[Dizerner]

I firmly believe the C&A debate accomplishes NOTHING,

You're wrong.

The truth matters, and God will always witness to it.

Many Calvinists will all be accountable for resisting the Spirit.

 

[civic]

You're wrong.

The truth matters, and God will always witness to it.

Many Calvinists will all be accountable for resisting the Spirit.

Nope Calvinists believe that’s irresistible

 

[atpollard]

You said you didn't believe in it and you said I would be wrong, but then you didn't give us your definition of synergism. could you give us your definition.

Synergism, in general, may be defined as two or more agents working together to produce a result not obtainable by any of the agents independently. The word synergy or synergism comes from two Greek words, erg meaning to work and syn meaning together, hence synergism is a "working together." - Theopedia

 

[atpollard]

Many Calvinists will all be accountable for resisting the Spirit.

... and yet: I am still not a Calvinist. I am a Particular Baptist. My source is not from the Reformers like John Calvin or even early church writers like Augustine. Baptists owe more to Gutenberg and John Wycliffe and William Tyndale for providing mass copies of scripture in vernacular English. We are an anti-establishment, Sola Scriptura, grass-roots populist movement.

 

[Red Baker]

I will not finish your post today, but will certainly do so, the Lord willing by tomorrow.

Studyman, I see you still have trouble being honest, which for a man that claims he can live without sinning, puts you into the company of Pharisees that Jesus warned his disciples of. No one is mocking God, but will expose men who trust in themselves that they are righteous will despising others and their truth.

Luke 18:11​

“The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.”

Your confidence is more in your flesh, than trusting solely in Jesus as the surety of God's elect ~ his faith, obedience, and righteousness secured for his elect and we in him as members of his elect body.

All, who teach that in his flesh, he has the power to believe, repent, and live according to the word of is a two legged dog, per Paul that we are to beware of.

Galatians 2:20,21​

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

In the new man that was created within me after the image of Jesús Christ, I live by faith, which faith, Jesus secured for each and every child of God's promises! In my flesh by nature dwelleth no good thing, this flesh is at enmity against the God of heaven, to teach otherwise is to teach another gospel that falls under God's curse. The true gospel teaches that Jesus Christ alone secured eternal life for the children of God's oath and promises.

I'm coming back in the morning.

I'll add a couple more thoughts to this short post, and do more as needed.

It was the Jesus "of the Bible" who Quoted His Father's instruction to me on whose Word's to "Live by". It is the same voice through this world's religions trying to convince me that HE is Lying to me.

Truly, there is nothing new under the sun.

No Studyman there's nothing new, even the manner in which you write, basically your words are saying the same things over and over again~you live within a very small portion of the scriptures, which truly makes those that labor to expose your work gospel much easier to do so.

I answered your question completely.

You must be kin to praise_yeshua, for he said the same thing, yet he as of yet not even come close to directly answer:

What is another gospel........Is the gospel preach a source of information concerning how we are born again, or is it the means thereof?......... the gospel, the power of God for whom and why?

But, that's okay, I'll work with what you and others post, your work gospel will show itself the more you talk.

I answered your question completely. God chose Paul, Moses, the Prophets and Sent His Own Son Jesus, that I and others might hear them, and believe God through the Word's HE gave them. God didn't "make" men believe Paul or Jesus. Just like He doesn't "make men" believe you and Kenneth Copeland. It's a free will choice.

So, men have free wills? Who told you that? They are free from whom, and free to obey whom? So, are you saying man's will is his co-partner in his salvation from sin and condemnation, or maybe you even take it a step farther than some are willing to go and boldly say..... man is not in bondage to sin, or the devil, he can in his natural flesh, love and obey God, and use Jesus Christ as only a life insurance policy just in case he fails to do so?

So, scriptures like these have no place in your Soteriology...

Romans 9:16​

“So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.”

John 1:13​

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Ezekiel 36:26​

“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

One more....

Matthew 16:13-17~"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Oh, got to do one more, that just came to my mind....

Psalms 65:4​

“Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.”

There's getting two birds with one stone! God's election of grace and his power causing his children to approach unto him, without which no man would ever do so! But, what would men like you know about this? Nothing.

Coming back....

 

[Red Baker]

Yes, God apprehended a donkey once, to warn Baalam. Will you then worship the Donkey? Create a golden image in the likeness of a donkey? Create high days, birth days and judgments in worship of the Donkey? Reject God's Words, Jesus' Words, and all the Words of the Prophets, and create a religious business called "Donkeyism"? Or should a man simply thank God that HE loved Baalam enough to apprehend a Donkey, that he might take heed and be saved, and that I might believe God through his experience.

This is the nonsense folks have to address when dealing with men void of biblical wisdom ~ is this the best you can do?

Yes, as I said before, God chose Paul for a mission. The Mission was to preach to others, that they might "repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance". But God doesn't "make" men believe those HE Chose to teach us, they must choose to "deny themself" and "Yield themself" and "humble themself" to God as Paul, Moses, James, Jeremiah, Malichi, His Son Jesus, and all the rest of those who God chose to teach us, instructs. I thank God that HE chose Moses, Jeremiah, Paul and Sent His Only Begotten Son, that I might hear them and believe God though them.

No one is asking anyone to reject men of God from the scriptures, yet, any man outside of the word of God, that teaches a doctrine, that man in his flesh apart from God's power first resurrecting them/quickening them to life, then no man would ever do so, nor can they do so, on their own power/strength, etc.

Why would I reject them, and follow a religion that works so hard to convince people that God is a Liar?

The God of the holy scriptures is the True God, we labor expose another spirit, another gospel and another Jesus.

2nd Corinthians 11:3,4, 13-15~"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.............For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

I am seeking the Christ "of the Bible". God chose Paul through this Christ to teach me. I'm OK with that.

Studyman, unless you have been converted since I last spoke to you, you reject that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, so, your Jesus is another Jesus, not the True God and eternal life, without which you will never see life. 1st John 5:20

I think that a man seeking God's Truth, will listen to "ALL" that His Chosen teachers have to say. When a man does this, he can understand the message.

Here, let me show you what Paul actually says.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, "if" that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I "count not" myself to have apprehended (YET) but this one thing "I do", forgetting those things "which are behind", and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark "for the prize" of the high calling of God (Which is) in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Notice how the message from Paul completely changes away from your preaching, when a man considers his entire statement. Omitting important parts of God's Inspirited Word is exactly how the serpent deceived Eve. (Did God not say?) Exactly how the "Children of the Devil", the Pharisees, led God's People astray. Paul knows the Law and Prophets, He knows what Jesus and His Father instructed. "Therefore, be ye perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect". Religious men of this world have been preaching that it is not possible for a man to be a "doer" of Christ's Sayings since long before Sodom. And they will cherry pick Paul's words, just as they do God's Word, to convince others of the same thing. But when a man reads what Paul is actually teaching, by considering all of his worlds, the teaching of these religious men who profess to know God, is exposed.

So, what are you attempting to say? Men can be perfect, is that what you want us to take from your words, or, just we should be doers of the word of God, which I teach and believe with all of my heart. Perfection as the law of God demands is impossible while we still live in the flesh. But, all sincere children of faith do press toward the mark of the high calling of God, which can only be done through Christ living in his children..... yet during our life living by the law of faith, we see another law in our members warring against our minds, making even our most holy moments defiled with sin being presence. This will never change until the death of this body of sin and death.

We are warned that there are "many", who come in Christ's Name, that are here for the very purpose of convincing as many people are they can, that Jesus, His Father, and Paul are liars, and don't know what they are talking about. Even something so simple and so basic as "What to eat, and what to drink". And what does the Jesus "of the bible" teach me about these basic everyday things?

The scriptures teach that:

1 Timothy 4:4​

“For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:”

We let our moderation be known to all men...the Lord is at hand, and receive what we do with a sincere and thankful heart. Fried pork chops and mashed potatoes and gravy is good. But, you still hold on the the Jewish dietary laws, thinking what goes into your body either keep you clean or it defiles you.

Mark 7:14-23~"And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand: There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable. And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

All things are lawful for God's children, they may not be expedient, and some things at certain times we may not do, because of weak brethren, yet all things are lawful as far as eating and drinking, etc.

1 Corinthians 10:23​

“All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.”

Later I'll finish.

 

[Red Baker]

I choose to Believe Him Red. You choose to believe the other voice. God doesn't "make" you call Him a Jew or mock His Judgments. You do so of your own free will.

I have no clue what you are talking about, and not sure you do either.

Consider how wicked you must think God is. According to your religion,

What you are actually are doing is revealing how you believe God is if this is so, the god you have created in your heart is not the of the scriptures but one constructed by your corrupt understanding of what God should be based upon if you were God this is how you would do this, that, etc.

He creates Adam and Eve, who you say HE created knowing full well they didn't have the Capacity to obey Him, but HE gave them a Commandment any way.

God certainly knew the end from the beginning, did he not? He created man after his own image, (he could not have created them any higher, as far as flesh and blood) giving them the very best opportunity to obey~in a beautiful world, with all they needed to live happy and contended with only one commandment to keep ~ they were created without sinful nature ~ they had the very best opportunity that could have been given to them~except one thing, there was no oath or promise that God would cause them to follow him, God did not secured their state in which they were created. Adam and eve were not created with God's infinite attributes, they were created flesh and blood, with all they needed to obey, their sin was their own doing ~ God did not force them to sin, of their own will they chose to disobey God, and bought judgement upon him, and all that came from him born after the likeness of his fallen nature.

He creates Adam and Eve, who you say HE created knowing full well they didn't have the Capacity to obey Him, but HE gave them a Commandment any way.

You have a problem with this? Tell God you do not approve of this and see what he thinks about your thoughts.

He placed the devil in the garden with them which, according to your religion, HE knew full they didn't have the capacity to resist, yet, in your religion, He put the devil there anyway. And when they didn't resist, because in your religion God didn't give them the capacity to resist, HE punished them, the entire world and billions and billions of people who weren't even there. But did HE stop giving humans HE created, commandments impossible to obey? NO! Did HE remove the Serpent you preach to the world they couldn't resist, from the world? No! According to your religion, God allowed the serpent to continue deceiving, HE continued to give them commandments impossible to obey, lied to them by telling them they could obey them, and then punished, even slaughtered them by the thousands when they simply did,

Did you ask to be here? No, you did not, and neither was I ask, yet God in his sovereign right decided to create and as he did knowing it was the most righteous way of creating....

Genesis 1:31​

“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”

God could easily have created man where he could not have fallen, as he did some of the angels, but then, no one would have ever know much about God's infinite attributes, it would have been impossible for them to know without actually seeing them in operation.

1 Peter 1:12​

“Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.”

God chose to do things as he did, without consulting anyone, and why should He? His ways are perfect and past finding out. If you have a problem with how God chose to do as He did, then tell Him when you see Him in that day.

Romans 9:20​

“Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?”

God has never left men.

It is not easy to debate dumb ~ spiritually speaking. I said as soon as God left Adam and Eve to themselves they sinned.... and yes, he left them to the power of their own flesh/will. He was not there to secured them in the state in which He created them, for many reasons we could mention, but not now.

Enough for now...

 

[Jim]

Red, I would appreciate it if you could answer the following: (1) Where does it say that God created Adam and Eve without a sinful nature? (2) What is a sinful nature? (3) Where, in the Bible, do we read anything about a sinful nature?

 

[Red Baker]

Red, I would appreciate it if you could answer the following: (1) Where does it say that God created Adam and Eve without a sinful nature? (2) What is a sinful nature? (3) Where, in the Bible, do we read anything about a sinful nature?

1) Where does it say that God created Adam and Eve without a sinful nature?
Romans 5:12~"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Sin entered into the world by Adam's sin~he was not created with sin in his members.
Jesus Christ was sent, not in the likeness of flesh, but in the flesh. He was sent, however, not in sinful flesh, but in the likeness of sinful flesh. Nothing can more clearly prove that the Lord Jesus Christ, though He assumed our nature, took it without taint of sin or corruption ~ that Adam received through being disobedience.

If the flesh of Jesus Christ was the likeness of sinful flesh, there must be a difference between the appearance of sinful flesh and our nature, or flesh in its original state when Adam was created. Christ, then, was not made in the likeness of the flesh of man before sin entered the world, but in the likeness of his fallen flesh. Though He had no corruption in His nature, yet He had all the sinless infirmities of our flesh. The person of man, in his present state, may be greatly different from what it was when Adam came from the hand of his Creator. Our bodies, as they are at present, are called ‘the bodies of our humiliation,’ Philippians 3:21

(2) What is a sinful nature?

The lack of the original righteousness which God created Adam with. For our nature is not merely bereft of good, but is so productive of every kind of evil that it cannot be inactive but works in us. Those who have called it concupiscence (a strong, especially sexual desire, lust) have used a word by no means wide of the mark, if it were added (and this is what many do not concede) that whatever is in man from intellect to will, from the soul to the flesh, is all defiled and crammed with concupiscence; or, to sum it up briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing but concupiscence. . . .every man, if honest would agree. to this.
(3) Where, in the Bible, do we read anything about a sinful nature?
Romans 5:12, Ephesians 2:1-3, and Psalm 51:5.

If by nature men are children of wrath, then their nature is sinful, or else God would be unrighteous saying they are children of his wrath by nature alone.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You're wrong.

The truth matters, and God will always witness to it.

Many Calvinists will all be accountable for resisting the Spirit.

Most people try to hide that they believe God chose them personally before the foundation of the world. I've been around such my entire adult life. Very few want to talk about it. Especially among Baptist. They will lose their influence if they do.