What Does “Another Gospel” Mean?

[Dizerner]

So you believe God chose unbelievers to remain in unbelief ?

There is no such thing as single predestination. It’s double or nothing.

Actually, you have Calvinist misunderstandings about predestination, which is natural since they really bang it into people's heads.

You can be predestined before the foundation of the world and still go to hell, because you reject your calling and election.

I know you're not really a reader, but I encourage you to give this a look through:

Thread 'The Mystery of Election from this Classical Arminian Point of View'

Jul 31, 2023

I generally follow the ideas of Classical Arminianism, which embraces God's love for all people, the necessity of preceding grace for all those born in sin, the remedy of faith in Christ's substitionary death and resurrection, and the possibility of real apostasy. But all of us who accept Christ as salvation, when we learn of God's salvific economy, we intuitively run the numbers—we factor the way the morality of it "feels" inside our heart—and it's almost impossible not to feel one way or the other. If God seems to allow or work in some way that seems unjust, immoral or puzzling, it's a...

• Diserner
• Replies: 19
• Forum: Calvinism vs. Arminianism

• 
• 

 

[praise_yeshua]

Actually, you have Calvinist misunderstandings about predestination, which is natural since they really bang it into people's heads.

You can be predestined before the foundation of the world and still go to hell, because you reject your calling and election.

I know you're not really a reader, but I encourage you to give this a look through:

Thread 'The Mystery of Election from this Classical Arminian Point of View'

Jul 31, 2023

I generally follow the ideas of Classical Arminianism, which embraces God's love for all people, the necessity of preceding grace for all those born in sin, the remedy of faith in Christ's substitionary death and resurrection, and the possibility of real apostasy. But all of us who accept Christ as salvation, when we learn of God's salvific economy, we intuitively run the numbers—we factor the way the morality of it "feels" inside our heart—and it's almost impossible not to feel one way or the other. If God seems to allow or work in some way that seems unjust, immoral or puzzling, it's a...

• Diserner
• Replies: 19
• Forum: Calvinism vs. Arminianism

• 
• 

So who are you going to quote that establishes your claim? I never read your referenced post and don't plan on doing it now.

Jacob Arminius taught a collective or class of believer in predestination. Individual predestination is another story. I used the word "individually" earlier. You might want to pay attention to this.

 

[Dizerner]

I never read your referenced post and don't plan on doing it now.

I don't care and I didn't ask you to.

Jacob Arminius taught a collective or class of believer in predestination. Individual predestination is another story. I used the word "individually" earlier. You might want to pay attention to this.

Jacobus Arminius taught that election is of individuals based on God's foreknowledge of their faith, rather than an unconditional selection of specific classes or groups. He emphasized that God resolves to justify believers and condemn unbelievers, focusing on individual responses to faith.

While some later Arminians have adopted the concept of corporate election—which posits that God chose the church as a collective entity, and individuals become part of the elect through faith—this was not Arminius's original stance. He maintained that election pertains to individuals who believe, underscoring personal faith as the condition for election

 

[Dizerner]

Particular Baptists are similar in belief to Hyper-Calvinists if you weren't aware.

I apologize I got them mixed up with Primitive Baptists.

They are more like just regular Calvinists.

Apologies to @atpollard.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don't care and I didn't ask you to.



Jacobus Arminius taught that election is of individuals based on God's foreknowledge of their faith, rather than an unconditional selection of specific classes or groups. He emphasized that God resolves to justify believers and condemn unbelievers, focusing on individual responses to faith.

While some later Arminians have adopted the concept of corporate election—which posits that God chose the church as a collective entity, and individuals become part of the elect through faith—this was not Arminius's original stance. He maintained that election pertains to individuals who believe, underscoring personal faith as the condition for election

Mind quoting Jacob Arminius?

Remember. Calvin and Arminius both wrote in Latin. I once enjoyed translating their Latin words into English to prove others wrong. You read something someone translated. Latin is a difficult language.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I apologize I got them mixed up with Primitive Baptists.

They are more like just regular Calvinists.

Apologies to atpollard.

They call them "Particular" because of their beliefs in "Particular Redemption". Which is "Baptist speak" for Limited Atonement.

 

[Dizerner]

Mind quoting Jacob Arminius?

Sure.

Arminius defines predestination as what is known as the "Simple Foreknowledge View":

IV. To these succeeds the fourth decree, by which God decreed to save and damn certain particular persons. This decree has its foundation in the foreknowledge of God, by which he knew from all eternity those individuals who would, through his preventing grace, believe, and, through his subsequent grace would persevere, according to the before described administration of those means which are suitable and proper for conversion and faith; and, by which foreknowledge, he likewise knew those who would not believe and persevere.​

Jacobus Arminius: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

ccel.org

 

[Red Baker]

Clearly Paul and Jesus were not Calvinists.

Neither I'm I in the purest form of Calvinism ~ yet, neither Luther, Calvin, and certainly not myself had/have the purest doctrine of free grace as the Son of God taught, and the apostles after Christ, and Paul after them, who outside of Christ, was the greatest champion of the doctrine of free Justification through the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ alone, who secured the free gift of eternal life for God's elect, which life was promised before the foundation of the earth.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Apologies to atpollard.

To me, no apology is due.

He is hiding what has been taught. There is very little difference between Primitive Baptist and Particular Baptist. They believe in individual election and limited atonement. Primitive Baptist don't like instruments in music.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Sure.

Arminius defines predestination as what is known as the "Simple Foreknowledge View":

IV. To these succeeds the fourth decree, by which God decreed to save and damn certain particular persons. This decree has its foundation in the foreknowledge of God, by which he knew from all eternity those individuals who would, through his preventing grace, believe, and, through his subsequent grace would persevere, according to the before described administration of those means which are suitable and proper for conversion and faith; and, by which foreknowledge, he likewise knew those who would not believe and persevere.​

Jacobus Arminius: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

ccel.org

Well.... that certainly isn't Latin.....

Plus, you can use the word "individual" in what he said and still apply it to a class of individuals. You know... "corporate" includes individuals. It is all about identity. In Christ, how are they identified.

No one excludes individuals. It is how they speak of those individuals that matters.

 

[Red Baker]

There is very little difference between Primitive Baptist and Particular Baptist. They believe in individual election and limited atonement. Primitive Baptist don't like instruments in music.

This is very true, I have friends from both groups~PB do not used music instruments to keep their services simple. Particular Baptist's are more seen in England than here in America. PB are seen more in the southern States of America than anywhere else in the world

 

[Dizerner]

Well.... that certainly isn't Latin.....

As usual, nothing ever escapes you.

No one excludes individuals. It is how they speak of those individuals that matter.

All forms of individual election incorporate some form of corporate concept.

The "Corporate Election View" seems to exclude individual election for electing Christ as a single "method" of election.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This is very true, I have friends from both groups~PB do not used music instruments to keep their services simple. Particular Baptist's are more seen in England than here in America. PB are seen more in the southern States of America than anywhere else in the world

Finally... We can agree...

I live in those "southern States".... I do believe there are more Primitive Baptist in the mountains of West Virginia and in Kentucky. I would run into them from time to time in Kentucky "camp meetings". The Appalachians do hold some semblance of them in the south.

 

[praise_yeshua]

As usual, nothing ever escapes you.



All forms of individual election incorporate some form of corporate concept.

The "Corporate Election View" seems to exclude individual election for electing Christ as a single "method" of election.

If you find time, study Latin a little. You can use a common resources to translate a few lines from any of their works. Just choose something meaningful. Take time to translate a few lines. You will get the understanding that people take great liberties with what they actually wrote.

If you dig deep enough, you will see that Arminius and Calvin were very very close to one another in theology. Do it or not. Your choice. I made my decision to move on from them a long time ago. I decided to study real evidence. Not what others said about others that said about others... that said about others.

It is one of the reasons I don't really fit in anywhere. Everyone wants to fit in somewhere. They will certainly compromise to do just that. I know I have in the past. I ignored things I knew were wrong to just "get along".

 

[Dizerner]

If you find time, study Latin a little.

No thanks, not interested.

You will get the understanding that people take great liberties with what they actually wrote.

You will need to actually substantiate your claim. No throwing spaghetti against the wall and hoping it sticks.

Give ONE example here of "great liberties." I'm fairly confident you cannot and are taking out of your ear lobes.

If you dig deep enough, you will see that Arminius and Calvin were very very close to one another in theology

You need to understand, that the difference between actual free will and a denial of free, is light years apart.

There can be no actual comparison there—they are antithetical, they are opposites.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The "Corporate Election View" seems to exclude individual election for electing Christ as a single "method" of election.

I believed in "Corporate Election" before anyone even supposedly "coined" the phrase. I was an Arminian. My earliest memories as a child was attending Freewill Baptist churches with my mother.

It has been taught and preached for a long time among various denominations. I believed it because I could read the Bible.

If you want to believe that God "knew" individuals by name apart from Christ. Then go for it. However, I would never say that Arminianism teaches this. There are Open Theists that will argue with you and they are right. CS Lewis had a large influence upon Anglicans and others who carried forward his beliefs about God's "timelessness". Study it for yourself.

 

[Dizerner]

If you want to believe that God "knew" individuals by name apart from Christ. Then go for it.

Thanks, I'm glad I have your permission.

However, I would never say that Arminianism teaches this.

What you say has no bearing on what Arminianism teaches.

Study it for yourself.

I don't need your constant input, you can save yourself the time.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You will need to actually substantiate your claim. No throwing spaghetti against the wall and hoping it sticks.
Give ONE example here of "great liberties." I'm fairly confident you cannot and are taking out of your ear lobes.

God has the record. If you're not going to do it yourself, then why are you placing the "onus" upon me.

Even if I took the time to do it, you wouldn't believe it. Discover it yourself or leave it behind. Your choice.

You need to understand, that the difference between actual free will and a denial of free, is light years apart.

I don't believe in unlimited freewill. All live within the constraints God places upon the reality we live in. Freedom doesn't imply power to act according to your own thoughts. However, our thoughts are unlimited. There is no place in our existence where we are more like God than in our imagination. In our imaginations, we can do anything. You might want to consider this in your theology.

 

[praise_yeshua]

What you say has no bearing on what Arminianism teaches.

You're the one that posted content that came from a translator and assumed it is perfect. You know like KJVOist do. I never assume a translator is perfect.

I don't need your constant input, you can save yourself the time.

We are arguing over a topic. That includes what I want to do.

 

[Dizerner]

That includes what I want to do.

If you want to keep ordering me around, I guess you have that right, lol.

Wasting your time though.