What Does “Another Gospel” Mean?

[Studyman]

You have placed a good deal of your thinking on your interpretation of the phrase "from faith to faith". That expression is notoriously difficult. One only needs to look at how the various translations present it.

(ASV) For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith:

(ESV) For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith

(KJV) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith

(NIV) For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed--a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written

The question is does the phrase "from faith" modify the righteousness of God or does it modify revealed. That is, does Paul say that the righteousness of God is from faith or does he say that it is revealed from faith. One need only review the various commentarians to see the confusion. But whatever the phrase "from faith" means, it doesn't really change or add anything to the phrase "to everyone who believes" in verse 16.

In verse 16, the power of God for salvation is said to be to everyone who believes. That clearly presents faith, believing in God, as a condition for receiving salvation. It shows that salvation is conditional. It says that God's plan of justifying people is revealed in the gospel, a plan that is exercised to or on those who believe, "to everyone who believes", to everyone who has faith. It is the gospel that reveals the plan. That is in direct compliance with Paul's statement in 10:17 that "Faith comes from hearing the message". The word of God is sharper that a sword and can penetrate even the hardest of hearts (Heb 4:12).The written word is able to produce saving faith in Jesus (John 20:31).

All of that of course is contrary to the false Augustinian idea that salvation is given unconditionally only to those whom God unconditionally chooses to save. But the point here is that gospel preaching does have the power to produce faith.

Great post, James and John adds to this as well, in my view.

James 1: 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness "the engrafted word", which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

The "Doing" part would be evidence of belief. Just as Jesus "works" was evidence of His Belief. While someone who "Calls Jesus Lord, Lord", as Jesus says, but isn't a "doer" of His Saying, but a hearer only, is evidence of his unbelief.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".

We can't look into another man's mind and see what he believes. But Jesus said a man is known by his works/fruits. And the Scriptures say men are judged by their works. So then, our works show our belief. And belief "in God" and His Word is called Faith.

With this knowledge I can judge myself, as a man who looks in a mirror.

1 John 2: 3 And hereby we do know "that we know him", if we keep his commandments. (Evidence of our belief)

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso "keepeth his word", in him verily is the love of God perfected: "hereby know we" (Evidence) that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, (DO) even as he walked. (Did)

 

[Red Baker]

Paul doesn't warn about men who "Yield themselves" to God and their bodies as instruments of righteousness unto God, in Galatians.

We have never said otherwise, I know well what Paul taught, and so do we, and not only do we teach this, but, by the grace of God labor to live it.

Romans 6:12-15~"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."

The true grace of God teaches his elect to deny ungodliness and worldly lust!

Titus 2:12​

“Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”

But, we refuse to follow man made commandments, such as what men like you teach their followers.

Colossians 2:16-23~"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."

He does, however, warn about religious men "Transforming themselves" into apostles of Christ, and to "Beware of" this world's religious philosophy and Traditions of men who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate"

I agree 100%, and so we preach.

So you are free to promote the Calvinists "Holy Lottery" salvation theology if you want.

So, you are mocking God's election of grace, for your gospel of works...."eat not, taste not, go not, see not, do not"..... etc., etc. When you see the Lord Jesus, who is the True God, the only God you will ever see, why not attempt to mock his election of grace and see how he takes it, I want to to be there and witness this, I want to see your loins turn loose, and the look on your face.

You can sell pork ribs and slugs to other people's children for profit on God's Sabbath to increase cash flow, I don't care.

I do not sell food, I buy it and eat it as a necessity of living in the flesh. I do not eat certain things because of my likes and dislikes~but a good BLT I'll eat any day of the week with egg on it. I enjoy meat lover Pizza, etc. To bad your false rellgion will not allow you to eat it.

I will say this ~ I would never offend a brother or a sister who believes they should not eat certain meats, if their conscience would not allow them to do so, I would honor that, just as long as they would not try to force their convictions on me, or my family, friends, etc. I'm persuaded all things are lawful to eat, but no problem if another believer thinks otherwise. Whether one eats or not, does not make them better, or worse. The same about other Christian liberties, concerning Christmas, Easter, even the sabbaths days~I know the first day of the week, which is Sunday is the day the first church called the Lord's day, so I chose that day to honor the Lord, even though serving Christ is 24/7 for his people.

But when you twist or cherry-pick the Words of Jesus or Paul, to "Justify" this religious behavior, someone needs to point out what the Scriptures actually say so that people might take heed, look into it themselves and find what I found, which is not to trust the religious system of this world, that Calls Jesus Lord, Lord, for instruction in righteousness.

That's what I'm doing toward what you are saying........... so, there.

I'm coming back to keep this readable for any who might desire to consider what we are saying.

 

[Red Baker]

Again, you omit Paul's word for the purpose of promoting and justifying your specific religion. Not to reflect what Paul is actually teaching. Clearly Paul didn't write his epistles, so religious men could twist them to justify a religious sect or business of this world. Here, Let's include more of Paul's word, to see what he is actually teaching.

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and "doctrines" of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from "meats", which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature "of God" is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified "by the word of God" and prayer.

Consider how foolish it is to actually believe that Paul uses "meats" here to mean maggots, slugs, swine's flesh, etc. But that is exactly what you are doing.

When a man considers all of Paul's words, it is clear that he is speaking about "Teaching" here, not eating slugs or swine's flesh, which God instructs His People not to do.

You said: "Consider how foolish it is to actually believe that Paul uses "meats" here to mean maggots, slugs, swine's flesh, etc. But that is exactly what you are doing."

No one is speaking of eating maggots, slugs those things were not on the plate God let down from heaven for Peter to eat, unless the creeping things included snake's, etc.

Acts 10:12
“Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.”

Pretty sure pig/pork barbecue was on the plate! I'll pass on many creeping things, but if brother desire something I do not like, so be it.

Where did God create dog meat and slugs or pigs to be eating with thanksgiving?

I'll pass on dogs and cats~but good smoked pork, cook slowly for a few hours, I would pray and eat.

Will you also then preach to the world that when Jesus said to "eat His Flesh, and Drink His Blood, HE is advocating Cannibalism? Or is He advocating that men "Walk" even as HE walked? To "Live" by the "Same teaching" HE lived by.

Simply said: He is teaching his people to remember his death til he comes again. It speak more of the weakness of our flesh that we so soon forget his death, so he gave the church this ordinance for them to remember. what he did for them.

In the latter day's men, who "come in Christ's Name", will teach against the Gospel of Christ given to Israel and to us. A Teaching that God created to be received with thanksgiving. A Teaching that causes those who live by it, to become the Children of God. For every "Creature of God" is good.

A teaching Paul said was profitable "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man "of God" may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".

In other words, in our time on earth, there will be religions who Jesus said would come in His Name, who forbids men to Join with and become One with Him and His God, and they will command that men abstain from "Living By" the "teaching" of God, which HE created to be received with thanksgiving for those who know and love the truth.

Lev. 11: 45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy. 46 This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth: 47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

You quoted one sentence from Paul, again, to Timothy this time, to promote YOUR religious philosophy that Leviticus 11:45-47 is a "Doctrine of devils" spoken by a "Seductive Spirit".

Clearly that is not Paul's message to Timothy.

Wow! You have taken such scriptures as 1st Timothy 4:1-4 and totally leave what Paul is saying concerning eating, marrying, etc and applying it to the commandments of God overall.

You said: "You quoted one sentence from Paul, again, to Timothy this time, to promote YOUR religious philosophy that Leviticus 11:45-47 is a "Doctrine of devils" spoken by a "Seductive Spirit".

Leviticus was given to Israel, not to us, and not to the early church after Pentecost! Much of that which was written by Moses was a shadow of things to come, temporary for Israel to show their separation from other Gentiles nations. Hebrews 7-10.

Colossians 2:17​

“Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”

Nothing from outside my heart defiles me. It is the lust to rebel against God within the heart of man, that defiles the man, when he lets it "Reign in our mortal bodies". In fact, I would not have known that maggots, slugs and swine's flesh are unclean for food, unless God's Law had not said,

Lev. 11: 46 This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth: 47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between "the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten".

The neighbors naked wife doesn't defile the man. It's the lust from your heart to look at her, that can defile the man, if he doesn't rule over it. This is why Paul teaches; Rom. 6: 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

The cash in the register doesn't defile the man, it's his coveting from the heart what doesn't belong to him, that defiles him. It's not the pork chop that defiles you, it's the lust from your heart to have what God forbids, that when conceived, defiles you. Just as it wasn't the fruit Eve ate that defined her. It was the lust from her heart to do what God told her not to do, that when conceived, brought forth sin and death.

So, are you comparing pork chop to a naked woman? that each one can cause lust to the same degree? Not sure what you are attempting to say by your allegory. I understand that that which comes from the heart that is what defiles a man, but eating pork chop in moderation is not what can defile a man, impossible per Mark 7:14-23. The reason why men look at women to lust is because that lust is in their hearts, and that is where sin lives and can defile us~this is what we must keep careful watch over....our hearts.

Later, I'll try to finish.

 

[Studyman]

We have never said otherwise, I know well what Paul taught, and so do we, and not only do we teach this, but, by the grace of God labor to live it.

The true grace of God teaches his elect to deny ungodliness and worldly lust!

Titus 2:12​

“Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”

Again, you take one sentence from Paul and twist it to justify Calvinism, which is a philosophy founded on the foolishness that Salvation for men is given by God through "Chance" a "Holy Lottery" as it were. Not as the Holy Scriptures teach, which is "every man" is judged by their Deeds. Here, lets post all of Paul's words here, and let them show you again, the difference between your gospel, and what Paul actually teaches.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared "to all men", (Not just those you label as the "Elect". 12 Teaching us (ALL Men) that, denying "ungodliness" and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, "righteously", and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, (All Men) that he might redeem us (All Men) from all iniquity, and purify unto himself "a peculiar people", zealous of good works. 15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Paul confirms my understand of his words in his letter to the Colossians.

Col. 1: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning "every man", and teaching "every man" in all wisdom; that "we may present" "every man" perfect in Christ Jesus: 29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according "to his working", which worketh in me mightily.

And Jesus confirms this as well.

Matt. 28: 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them (All men) to "observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you": and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And again;

1 Tim. 2: 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for "all men"; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all "godliness and honesty". 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have "all men" to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator "between God and (ALL) men, the man Christ Jesus;

I could go on and on with scriptures because the Bible simply doesn't promote your Calvinist gospel. Only by cherry-picking through the letters of Paul, and omitting almost all of his teaching, are you able to deceive men into adopting your religious philosophy that: "The true grace of God teaches his elect to deny ungodliness and worldly lust!."

But Paul teaches "Every Man" to Repent, turn to God, do works worthy of repentance.

You don't teach this in your sermons even though it is Biblically True. Instead, you cherry-pick through Paul's letters to promote "another gospel", one in which Salvation is based on chance, the "Luck of the draw" or as it were, a Holy Lottery. Paul's Gospel and yours are two completely different teaching, when a man considers more than just one sentence here, and another one over there.

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we "must all appear" before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

You demean and ridicule me "because" I believe "ALL" of the Christ's Inspired Words.

It is a blessing for me, not so much for you, according to the Scriptures.

But, we refuse to follow man made commandments, such as what men like you teach their followers.

It is perfectly natural to get angry and lash out as those who would show your error through what is actually written in Scriptures. Cain and the Pharisees were a good example of this. "Correction, Reproof" is often humiliating, especially for those who transform themselves into apostles of Christ or have exalted themselves above others. This lust of the flesh is what God told Cain to "Rule over". You know I have never posted, advocated or even implied that a man should obey man over God's Commandments. You will not be able to provide any evidence of your accusations that I do, because it's a lie. You know that lying is an ungodly and worldly lust, but you do it anyway. This is because your flesh rules over you, and your conscience has been seared.

I forgive your unfounded slander. But really wish you would consider what the scriptures actually say, because teaching falsehoods about God's Word to others is a serious offence according to God. As Jesus Himself teach.

Matt. 18: 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall "humble himself" as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; "but woe to that man" by whom the offence cometh!

It is my heart felt desire that you might repent and turn to God, away from this world's religious system with its judgments, statutes, high days and their manmade images of God created in the likeness of men. But it is a choice every man must make, according to the Inspired Word of God.

 

[Studyman]

So, you are mocking God's election of grace, for your gospel of works...."eat not, taste not, go not, see not, do not"..... etc., etc.

Again, you reference one sentence from one of the letters of Paul, to justify your rejection of God and His instruction in righteousness.

Col. 2: 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to (Its) ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines "of men"? (Not God) 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Your adopted religious sect has convinced you to actually believe that God's instruction in righteousness, are "Rudiments of this world" and "Commandments of men".

So when the Jesus "of the Bible" instructs men; "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God", Red Baker whispers in their ear, "Don't listen to HIM, He is promoting doctrines and traditions of men, Rudiments of this world", "doctrines of Devils".

Jesus tries to tell you;

Mark 7: 6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the "commandments of men". (Not God)

8 For "laying aside" the commandment of God, ye hold "the tradition of men", as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. (Touch not; taste not; handle not, Which all are to perish with the using)

God is not a man, God is not a Jew. God's commandments are not "commandments of men". The "Way of the Lord" that Jesus walked in is not the "rudiments of this world" or "Jewish Traditions" as you imply in your adopted religious philosophy.

That is why both Jesus and Paul warned about the course of this world, and the spirit which now works in the "Children of Disobedience".

When you see the Lord Jesus, who is the True God, the only God you will ever see, why not attempt to mock his election of grace and see how he takes it, I want to to be there and witness this, I want to see your loins turn loose, and the look on your face.

Yes, your heart is full of anger, hatred and resentment towards me, wishing for my loins to be loosed for posting the Scriptures you omit, and the message they bring forth that you don't believe, and exposing Paul's teaching that you preach against.

But I don't feel that way about you at all. I hope you will humble yourself, "Yield yourself" to God, and your body as instruments of His Righteousness unto God, so that you might stop promoting the wickedness that God's commandments are "Rudiments of this world", and "commandments of men" and "doctrines of devils".

And who knows, God's Word doesn't return void. Maybe you will repent. And in that day, I will rejoice.

I do not sell food, I buy it and eat it as a necessity of living in the flesh. I do not eat certain things because of my likes and dislikes~but a good BLT I'll eat any day of the week with egg on it. I enjoy meat lover Pizza, etc. To bad your false rellgion will not allow you to eat it.

Yes, you live according to "Your likes and dislikes". Jesus lived by the Words of His Father and instructed me to "Deny myself" and do the same. I posted His Words, but you have completely ignored them, because they interfere with the promotion and justification of your adopted religious philosophy.

You and the Pharisees both consider living by God's Word, and not your own fleshy likes and dislikes, "a false religion". But Jesus didn't, and Paul most certainly didn't.

So concerning the question, "what is food and what is not food", it's not I that chooses for me, but the Christ that lives in me.

I am not ashamed of His Gospel.

I will say this ~ I would never offend a brother or a sister who believes they should not eat certain meats, if their conscience would not allow them to do so, I would honor that, just as long as they would not try to force their convictions on me, or my family, friends, etc. I'm persuaded all things are lawful to eat, but no problem if another believer thinks otherwise. Whether one eats or not, does not make them better, or worse. The same about other Christian liberties, concerning Christmas, Easter, even the sabbaths days~I know the first day of the week, which is Sunday is the day the first church called the Lord's day, so I chose that day to honor the Lord, even though serving Christ is 24/7 for his people.

Yes, you have your adopted religion. And you promote it in spite of what is actually written in scriptures, as I have demonstrated so many times now. But the Jesus "of the bible" Himself said;

Matt. 6: 31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first "the kingdom of God", and "his" righteousness; and "all these things shall be added unto you".

But when I listen to the religions of this world that you are promoting, they preach to reject God's Righteousness concerning what to eat and what to drink, what is Holy, what is Sanctified, in favor of their own likes and dislikes, traditions and philosophies.

Maybe your religion is right, God's Word doesn't matter, and Jesus was lying when HE told me to "Live by" them.

Nevertheless, I am a purchased possession, I am not my own, like you are. I will not listen to you and your fellow "ministers of righteousness" promoting the religious philosophies of this world. I'll stick to the Simplicity of Christ, as the Scriptures teach, "Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men".

For this you will hate me.

And I am thankful for the Blessing.

 

[Red Baker]

Again, you take one sentence from Paul and twist it to justify Calvinism, which is a philosophy founded on the foolishness that Salvation for men is given by God through "Chance" a "Holy Lottery" as it were.

Of all people, I certainly do not believe in "Chance"~ every sheep of Jesus Christ, will he bring into the fold, not one will be lost, no, not one.

John 17:6​

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”

John 10:16​

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

Not as the Holy Scriptures teach, which is "every man" is judged by their Deeds.

Jesus Christ paid for the sins of God's elect~they will never be judge for them, no, not never. We must give account of our stewardship, but our sins was judged in our surety ~ Jesus Christ. God has put them as far as the east is from the west from us.

Psalms 103:12​

“As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.”

Also, it is impossible for our new man to sin, so, what man is God going to judge in that day?

1st John 3:9​

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

Here, lets post all of Paul's words here, and let them show you again, the difference between your gospel, and what Paul actually teaches.

Please do....

I could go on and on with scriptures because the Bible simply doesn't promote your Calvinist gospel. Only by cherry-picking through the letters of Paul, and omitting almost all of his teaching, are you able to deceive men into adopting your religious philosophy that: "The true grace of God teaches his elect to deny ungodliness and worldly lust!."

But Paul teaches "Every Man" to Repent, turn to God, do works worthy of repentance.

You don't teach this in your sermons even though it is Biblically True. Instead, you cherry-pick through Paul's letters to promote "another gospel", one in which Salvation is based on chance, the "Luck of the draw" or as it were, a Holy Lottery.

Titus 2:11​

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”

"Hath appeared to all men"~ meaning, all without distinction, not all without exception...Jews and Gentiles! You folks quote scriptures and never give their proper sense, so that one would have a perfect flow of truth from one scripture, to the next.

Paul's Gospel and yours are two completely different teaching, when a man considers more than just one sentence here, and another one over there.

Actually, mine are your are two completely different gospels, one based on pure grace, the other seeking to be under the law of works in order to be accepted by God.

Galatians 4:21​

“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?”

Who was the true son of Abraham? One by the works of the flesh, or one that was a son by God's oath and promise? You answer that.

You demean and ridicule me "because" I believe "ALL" of the Christ's Inspired Words.

So, you believe all of Christ's inspired words?

Titus 2:13​

“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;”

So, is Jesus Christ the true God, the only God, you, myself, and any other man will ever see? I say absolutely, what saith thou?

Maybe you got converted since the last time we spoke, but, base on what I have read so far, I doubt it.

 

[Studyman]

Leviticus was given to Israel, not to us, and not to the early church after Pentecost! Much of that which was written by Moses was a shadow of things to come, temporary for Israel to show their separation from other Gentiles nations. Hebrews 7-10.

Again, your mission here is to promote this world's religious system, I have shown how the prince of this world does this, which is by cherry picking Scriptures in order to deceive people.

But when I read what is actually written, I find their preaching, and by extension, your preaching, a falsehood.

First, God said to Israel:

Ex. 12: 48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49 "One law" shall be to him that is homeborn, "and" unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

And again;

Is. 56: 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

So your preaching that God only gave His Judgments, Commandments and Statutes to men of a certain DNA, is a deception, according to what Gods inspired Word actually teaches.

And Paul confirms.

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, (Jew and Gentile) to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

When a person reads Hebrews 7-10, they find the fulfillment of the Prophesied "New Priesthood" after the Order of Melchizedek, bringing a change to the Levitical Priesthood where the people received God's Laws from, and received forgiveness of their sins from.

This "New Covenant" was prophesied in Jer. 31. If a man reads it for himself, he will find 2 things were prophesied to change in the New Priesthood.

#1. How God's Instruction in Righteousness is received. (Heb. 7: 11-15)

#2. How forgiveness of sins was provided for. (Heb. 10:1-8)

The deceiver would have us believe that God abolished His instruction in righteousness. But Jesus saw these deceivers coming, and warned those who would believe in Him. (Matt. 5: 17-20)

One of the most important prophesies of the Christ has not yet been fulfilled, that being His Return. If HE doesn't return, then my Faith is in vain.

The deceiver would have us believe "ALL" has been fulfilled. But we can resist this evil foolishness by following the instructions of Paul to "Put On" the Armor of God which includes the Holy Scriptures, AKA, the Sword of the Lord.

Of course, you will just continue to justify your adopted religion, in the same way the Pharisees defended theirs. So at some point, this discussion just becomes vain jangling. Since you cannot believe any of the Scriptures I post, because to do so would mean you would have to humble yourself to God's Word, and since you have been convinced of the strong delusion that God's Words are "Rudiments of this world", and "Commandments of men", and "doctrines of Devils", you cannot accept them as truth.

Which brings to pass the Prophesy,

2 Pet. 2: 17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

20 For if after they have escaped "the pollutions of the world" through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known "the way of righteousness", than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Of course you will want the last word, and you can have it.

Time to shake the dust.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Titus 2:13
“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;”

So, is Jesus Christ the true God, the only God, you, myself, and any other man will ever see? I say absolutely, what saith thou?

Hi Red Baker

Titus 2:13 is most likely a manipulation (accidental or most likely deliiberate) of the original text, since the apostles overwhelmingly separate God from Jesus Christ in their letters.
When I say “overwhelmingly” I mean 95% of the times in which “God” and “Christ” are placed in the same sentence (and the title “God” given to the Father, and not to Christ, 100% of the times where “Father” and “Christ” are refered to in the same sentence).

Since a manipulation of the 95% is clearly less likely that the manipulation of the remaining 5% (especifically, 3 verses), we can conclude that the apostles believed that God and Jesus Christ were two different persons, and that the title “God” belonged only to Our Father.

Manipulation of the original text to support a Trinitarian doctrine should not suprise anyone, as it was already attempted with the infamous Joannic comma. I’m open to debate with you on a separate thread if you are interested, my friend.

In this specific aspect, our dear brother @Studyman is correct and Calvin is wrong.

 

[Red Baker]

In this specific aspect, our dear brother @Studyman is correct and Calvin is wrong.

Since Studyman has not yet commented, we shall wait on him~maybe he has changed his views from a few years back, but, I doubt it. I do not consider any man a brother who rejects, and preaches against the deity of Jesus Christ, being everlasting Father of all things!

Now to briefly addressed your comments.

Titus 2:13 is most likely a manipulation (accidental or most likely deliiberate) of the original text, since the apostles overwhelmingly separate God from Jesus Christ in their letters.
When I say “overwhelmingly” I mean 95% of the times in which “God” and “Christ” are placed in the same sentence (and the title “God” given to the Father, and not to Christ, 100% of the times where “Father” and “Christ” are refered to in the same sentence).

Since a manipulation of the 95% is clearly less likely that the manipulation of the remaining 5% (especifically, 3 verses), we can conclude that the apostles believed that God and Jesus Christ were two different persons, and that the title “God” belonged only to Our Father.

Manipulation of the original text to support a Trinitarian doctrine should not suprise anyone, as it was already attempted with the infamous Joannic comma. I’m open to debate with you on a separate thread if you are interested, my friend.

In the KJV there are no maniputations of the original text, besides, how would any person know that to be true. since no man has ever seen the originals since they were first written, they are long gone.

Take this to another thread. You can used this verse as a starter:

Isaiah 9:6​

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

Jesus Christ was God, period ~ but God was not Jesus Christ! The mystery of the Godhead.

 

[Red Baker]

Calvin is wrong.

Quickly ~ I do not believe as Calvin did, on the Trinity~He believed in the eternal sonship of Jesus Christ, we see and teach the incarnate Sonship, the only possibly way for anyone to preserve Jesus' deity as the Alpha and the Omega, the first and last which he said he was. There are children of God on both sides of this debate. Both believes he is God without qualifications.

 

[Red Baker]

Again, your mission here is to promote this world's religious system, I have shown how the prince of this world does this, which is by cherry picking Scriptures in order to deceive people.

Listen to the worm calling the snail slimly.

So your preaching that God only gave His Judgments, Commandments and Statutes to men of a certain DNA, is a deception, according to what Gods inspired Word actually teaches.

Really?

Romans 9:4​

“Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;”

So many scriptures and examples could be provided, but why do so? It is not that complicated, unless someone has a biased agenda to deliver, or to protect.

And Paul confirms.

1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, (Jew and Gentile) to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

No one would disagree, that those things written afore times, were written for our admonitions, but this still does not prove your assumptions that the giving of the law to Israel was not for them only, God certainly did not reveal himself to other nations as he did to Abraham's seed after the flesh. That being said other nations were not without a witness, concerning right and wrong. Psalms 19; Romans 1, 2 etc.

This "New Covenant" was prophesied in Jer. 31. If a man reads it for himself, he will find 2 things were prophesied to change in the New Priesthood.

#1. How God's Instruction in Righteousness is received. (Heb. 7: 11-15)

#2. How forgiveness of sins was provided for. (Heb. 10:1-8)

Actually, two covenants ran side by side from Abraham unto Christ ~ the covenant of works, and the covenant of grace concerning God's promises of pure grace supported by his holy oath. Studyman, the forgiveness of sins was not just provided for man, but was secured totally by Christ, for those whom God had given to him to save. This is truly the difference between the two covenants ~ we can narrow our discussion down to this if you like.

Of course, you will just continue to justify your adopted religion,

My faith in the scriptures can be traced back to the apostles, certainly to men like Augustine who lived just a few years after them, and for the most part I share his teachings on soteriology, and eschatology. I would not call that a adopted latter day religion~which yours is a strange mixture of SDA, Judaism, and even Islam ~ refusing to eat pork, etc.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Since Studyman has not yet commented, we shall wait on him~maybe he has changed his views from a few years back, but, I doubt it. I do not consider any man a brother who rejects, and preaches against the deity of Jesus Christ, being everlasting Father of all things!

Now to briefly addressed your comments.

In the KJV there are no maniputations of the original text, besides, how would any person know that to be true. since no man has ever seen the originals since they were first written, they are long gone.

Take this to another thread. You can used this verse as a starter:

Isaiah 9:6​

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

Jesus Christ was God, period ~ but God was not Jesus Christ! The mystery of the Godhead.

I respectfully disagree with your statements, and certainly we can debate on this topic in a different thread.
To me, only The Father is God. Period.
However, I consider any Christian who believes in the Trinity as my brother and sister. I make no difference whatosoever among people by their formal creed. The degree of my daily interactions with them are marked by How They live in their lives.
So, Red Baker, I consider you my brother. I am convinced God has elected you before the foundation of the World, for his glory. I praise God for your existence in m life through the Fórum and I know you are and will be in paradise.

 

[Studyman]

Since Studyman has not yet commented, we shall wait on him~maybe he has changed his views from a few years back, but, I doubt it. I do not consider any man a brother who rejects, and preaches against the deity of Jesus Christ, being everlasting Father of all things!

Calling Jesus Lord, Lord, or praising Jesus with your mouth looks good to others, and may cause you to receive the praise of other religious men who call Him Lord, Lord. But if you are not a "doer" of the Saying of this Jesus, your works are the evidence of your unbelief. And if a man doesn't "believe" in the WORDS of Jesus, then this man "Rejects" the deity of Christ.

My friend Pancho is pointing out that yes, he knows this world's religions have manipulated Scriptures over time, to promote the philosophies of their specific religious sect. A child can see that there are "many" Translations, most all of them unique in one form or another and seldom are they the same. But when man considerers "ALL" that is written, it becomes clear that the man Jesus, was not God the Father of all things, rather, He was the Son of the God and Father of all things. Paul clearly understood this.

Col. 1: 3 We give thanks to God and the Father "of our Lord Jesus Christ", praying always for you,

The Jesus "of the Bible" said that He and of course, those who follow Him, "Live by" every Word that proceeds from God. Since the Holy Scriptures are inspired by God, this is how a man can overcome the manipulation of Scripture by men, that we know takes place. "Doing" this is evidence of our faith in Christ Jesus as our Lord, by being a "Doer" of His Sayings, and not a hearer only. And it also is evidence of our belief in God to preserve His Truths over time, that HE had written to "Show us in the way that we should go", or as Paul teaches, "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".

Pancho's understanding in this matter, not seen through the prism of Calvinism, is that 9.5 times out of 10, when every Word of God concerning the Lord's Christ is examined, it becomes clear that Jesus is the Son of the God and Father of all things.

Matt. 27: 43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. 44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. 45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Now by design I believe, if you look hard enough, and go through enough translations for the purpose to justify your specific religious sect, you will find a few verses, maybe as much as 5%, which can be isolated from the rest of Scriptures, and twisted to promote any given popular religious philosophy, including the popular philosophy that Jesus didn't Pray to His Father, the Father of all things, but "IS" the Father of all things.

Since I believe in this Jesus and have examined Every Word of God inspired in the Holy scriptures, as HE instructed, I have found that my Lord and Savior was "Sent" by God the Father of all things. He "ascended" to God the Father of all things, the first human to do so, and is my advocate between me and God, the Father of all things.

1 John 1: 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 Tim. 2: 5 For there is "one God", and "one mediator" between God and men, "the man Christ Jesus"

He wasn't God the Father of all things, as HE said His Father was greater than He.

I believe these things because I believe in the deity of Jesus. Not because I reject or preach against it, as you falsely preach to others. If you believed in the "deity" of this Jesus, you wouldn't be a Calvinist and you wouldn't be accusing men to teaching against the Lord's Christ, just because they believe what He says enough to be a doer of His Sayings.

The way to see these things is to place God and His Word as more important than an adopted religious sect. The Pharisees wouldn't do it.

 

[Red Baker]

And if a man doesn't "believe" in the WORDS of Jesus, then this man "Rejects" the deity of Christ.

With this statement, Studyman, I'm not convinced you're even capable of discussing the deity of Christ~do you truly understand the phrase~deity of Christ? To put it very simple..... though Jesus was indeed fully man, he also was fully God ~meaning, he was a complex person, not just a man, and not just a son of God, but, God's only begotten Son, thereby making him equal to God as far as his Divine nature goes., making him equal to God in all of His Divine attributes, yet having all of our limited fleshly infirmities, with an exception of a sinful nature.

So, do you believe this to be so, a simple yes or no, would be greatly appreciated. If not, then please explain your understanding. Thank you in advance.

I'll be off line for a while, take you time.

 

[Studyman]

Listen to the worm calling the snail slimly.

Nevertheless, the serpent deceives people by cherry picking Scriptures, as opposed to the Jesus "of the bible" who teaches to live by "Every Word" of God. This is undeniably true no matter who repeats it.

Really?

Romans 9:4​

“Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;”

I posted God's Own Words from HIS Inspired Word as to who His ONE Law is for. Your use of this one sentence from Paul, for the purpose of making God's Word void, is the reason why we disagree. Yes, God gave Abraham His Laws, Judgments, Statutes and Commandments, yes HE also gave His Laws to the Children of Israel. And HE gave His Laws to those non-Jews who would sojourn with Israel, and the Stranger who joins himself to the Lord.

Why would you want to convince people that these things, which are true, are not true?

2 Thess. 2: 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Remember Red, being deceived by its very definition, is to believe something that isn't true. Your continual assertion that Paul teaches men to reject God's Word, although popular in this world God placed me in, simply is not supported by even Paul himself, who says these same Holy Scriptures are trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".

Your religious philosophy, "God's Laws were only for Israel" is a popular teaching of the prince of this world, but shouldn't a man trust the Words that Jesus Himself said to "live by"? And if a preacher is trying to turn men away from God's Word, didn't this same Jesus warn us to take heed of this man's teaching?

Clearly you don't wake up every morning and say, "today I will turn men away from God", any more than the Pharisees woke up and said, "today I will persecute the Church of God". And yet this is what happened.

Is this not because of deception? Or are you doing these things on purpose?

I can't believe that about you Red.

So many scriptures and examples could be provided, but why do so? It is not that complicated, unless someone has a biased agenda to deliver, or to protect.

Yes, if you don't believe God's Word, then you can't be a "Doer" of His Word.

No one would disagree, that those things written afore times, were written for our admonitions, but this still does not prove your assumptions that the giving of the law to Israel was not for them only,

It's not my assumption. I posted for your review, the God of Abraham telling you who His Law was made for. Through Moses, Isaiah and Paul. But you completely ignored these Words of God that I posted. You didn't even acknowledge them. And why would you "DO" this, if not to preserve and justify "your" specific adopted religious philosophy.

God certainly did not reveal himself to other nations as he did to Abraham's seed after the flesh. That being said other nations were not without a witness, concerning right and wrong. Psalms 19; Romans 1, 2 etc.

So you believe God didn't give Sodom the same chance that God gave Abraham?

Oh, I forgot Red. God's entire story about Sodom was a farce, showbusiness according to Calvinism. God created Sodom to be destroyed, withheld righteousness from them, and then slaughtered them because they were not righteous. So in your religion, God lied to, deceived Abraham into believing God would spare the city if HE could find just 10 men that had "Yielded themselves" to God, like Abraham.

"Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

But according to you, God withheld righteousness in the first place.

But what of Ninevah? I guess they must have hit the Holy Lottery.

My issue with you has always been the manmade religion you promote to others with such zeal.

Actually, two covenants ran side by side from Abraham unto Christ ~ the covenant of works, and the covenant of grace concerning God's promises of pure grace supported by his holy oath. Studyman, the forgiveness of sins was not just provided for man, but was secured totally by Christ, for those whom God had given to him to save. This is truly the difference between the two covenants ~ we can narrow our discussion down to this if you like.

But Red, you preach that God's Laws were only for Israel. The Scriptures that I posted, that you completely ignored as if they didn't even exist, clearly teach others wise.

The hypocrisy of your religious philosophy is stunning, and that you can't see it, sends chills up my spine. You preach to the world that God's Laws were only for Israel and not given to you.

But God's New covenant:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with "the house of Israel"; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Was given to you.

Of course, you will justify your religion by finding a verse somewhere, separating it from the rest of the Bible, and then using it to justify this glaring hypocrisy.

It was the Priesthood Covenant that changed Red. At least according to God.

My faith in the scriptures can be traced back to the apostles, certainly to men like Augustine who lived just a few years after them, and for the most part I share his teachings on soteriology, and eschatology. I would not call that a adopted latter day religion~which yours is a strange mixture of SDA, Judaism, and even Islam ~ refusing to eat pork, etc.

I refuse to eat swine's flesh or slugs, because the Word of God that Jesus told me to Live by, instructed me in this manner. Specifically concerning "what to eat, what to drink" as Jesus instructed me to Seek the Righteousness of God. I also posted His Words concerning this, and you also ignored them as if HIS Word's didn't exist. But I believe in this Jesus, and the God and Father of All, whose Words this Jesus said to live by.

I didn't receive this instruction from Ellen White, or Gamaliel, or Muhammad. I received this instruction from Paul who said the Holy scriptures were trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works". From Jesus, "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God", and from God His Father, as He instructed;

Lev. 11: 44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy. 46 This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth: 47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

Does it matter? It does to me. And God said I am judged by my works, not yours. Therefore, I judge myself.

Gal. 6: 3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. 4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

Because who am I to reply against God.

 

[Red Baker]

Nevertheless, the serpent deceives people by cherry picking Scriptures, as opposed to the Jesus "of the bible" who teaches to live by "Every Word" of God. This is undeniably true no matter who repeats it.

Again, this is a true statement, and who would know this better than the person doing this. If a Detective wanted to know how a burglar can burglarize folks even while they are present, just ask the thief, he can tell you of his cunning ways! But Christians have the gift of knowing, the Spirit has warned us from the word of God.

Ephesians 4:14​

“That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;”

I posted God's Own Words from HIS Inspired Word as to who His ONE Law is for.

There you are displaying exactly what I just said...you are using sleight of hands and cunning words to deceive any who would give you a ear, unguarded by the scriptures.

Certain laws given by Moses were indeed only for Israel, especially the dietary laws, and others~the Ten commandments were given to Moses for Israel, to be used to give them a knowledge of sin, and their inability to perfectly live according to them in their hearts without sinning. And their need of the promised seed to secured that promise for them!

The law came 430 years after God gave the promise to Abraham and to his seed ~ so that tells us the the inheritance of the world to come is not by any law, if so, then God's promises supported by his oath would be void, and that is impossible. That also tells us the Law has a different purpose as to why God gave the law.

Galatians 3:16-18​

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.”

Bottom line, regardless who you think the law is for, or not for, all should be able to agree that the inheritance of the gift of eternal life, is not by any works of the law, but by the redeeming work of the promised seed to come who would secured that gift for them! Selah.

Your continual assertion that Paul teaches men to reject God's Word, although popular in this world God placed me in, simply is not supported by even Paul himself, who says these same Holy Scriptures are trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".

You are being dishonest with your words. Not for others to reject the scriptures, but to reject men who desires to add their works to what Christ has totally secured for God's chosen people. He was indeed the Lamb of God offered for the sins of the world, Jews and Gentiles, the very elect among each.

Your religious philosophy, "God's Laws were only for Israel" is a popular teaching of the prince of this world, but shouldn't a man trust the Words that Jesus Himself said to "live by"? And if a preacher is trying to turn men away from God's Word, didn't this same Jesus warn us to take heed of this man's teaching?

John 1:17~"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.​

For the law was given by Moses.

Moses was a great man and instituted Israel’s religion 1500 years earlier.

All that the Jews had … temple worship, sacrifices, ceremonies, scriptures, priests, laws, were from God … but declared by Moses. See below (1:18).

There are three dispensations: John and Jesus introduced three to replace two. From Adam to Moses covers the patriarchs before a written law (Rom 5:14). From Moses to Christ is the old testament ordained via Moses (Gal 3:19-20). From Christ’s first coming to His second coming is the gospel millennium.

The existing dispensation was the old covenant ordained by Moses’ Sinai law. The covenant God made with Israel was based on God and Moses at Sinai. Moses was mediator of the old covenant (Ex 20:19-22; De 5:5; Ac 7:37-38). The old covenant was bondage of ceremonial rituals and only condemnation. The judgment of the old covenant was severe (Heb 2:2-3; 10:28-31; 12:25).

But grace and truth.

The contrast here by context is dispensational benefits, not legal or vital things. The arriving dispensation was the new covenant introduced by John and Jesus. The law and prophets were until John, and then the kingdom (Luke 16:16). After John, Jesus set up His kingdom (Matt 3:2; 4:17; 8:11; Luke 17:20-21). The writer to the Hebrews declared that the apostolic age was one of religious reform (Heb 9:10). Jesus Himself declared this to the ignorant woman of Samaria (Jn 4:20-24).

The difference of law and grace is enormous, exalting Jesus and His religion. Religion is the worship of God, and Jesus revealed a most gracious religion. Consider the purpose and result of law versus grace (Rom 3:20-24; 5:20-21). Paul glorified the new testament by several comparisons (II Cor 3:6-18). Hebrews shows in detail Christ and grace are superior (Heb 8:1-7; 10:1-9).

Came by Jesus Christ

The great leader of the old covenant was Moses; the new covenant has JESUS CHRIST as its champion. Hebrews 3:1-6

John and apostles had introductory and concluding roles, but Jesus is the key. He fulfilled the law by His perfect life and applied it by His perfect teaching. He nailed Moses’ ordinances to His cross and got rid of them (Col 2:14-17). He opened the way to God forever with nothing left to do (Heb 10:19-22). So much more could be said.

Coming back to finish...

 

[Red Baker]

So you believe God didn't give Sodom the same chance that God gave Abraham?

First of all, I do not believe in "chances" to be born again. God never gave Abraham a chance, he called Abraham alone by his grace.

Isaiah 51:1,2​

“Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged. Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.”

So, you and others believe in chances, as though the final decision is made by the sinner, who according to God's testimony, is at enmity against him, and as though it is in his power to love, believe and repent if just given the opportunity to do so. This is another gospel preach by men, whose eyes have never been open to the truth as of yet.

Oh, I forgot Red. God's entire story about Sodom was a farce, showbusiness according to Calvinism.

It is in the word of God, and so, I believe it with all of my heart, no problem. Besides, what does Calvinism has to do with God destroying those wicked sodomites? Not one thing.

God created Sodom to be destroyed, withheld righteousness from them, and then slaughtered them because they were not righteous. So in your religion, God lied to, deceived Abraham into believing God would spare the city if HE could find just 10 men that had "Yielded themselves" to God, like Abraham.

He did not create them just to destroy them, their own sins was the reason he destroyed them. He left them to the lust of their own depraved hearts. God was not under obligation to show any mercy to them, so he did not. God knew who was righteous and who were not, since his power caused them to be righteous~he did spare some of Lots household, even though we have no evidence from the scriptures that others were righteous other than Lot, and we would not even he was, if the scriptures did not tell us so. His practical righteousness was very, very small, in comparison to Abraham.

But Red, you preach that God's Laws were only for Israel. The Scriptures that I posted, that you completely ignored as if they didn't even exist, clearly teach others wise.

The hypocrisy of your religious philosophy is stunning, and that you can't see it, sends chills up my spine. You preach to the world that God's Laws were only for Israel and not given to you.

God's laws addressing our practical living in this world are for all of God's children as "a rule to live by", which laws, are summed up in the ten commandment ~ but are not to be used as a means of being accepted by God, for that would be impossible for us to fulfilled........ is this plain and easy to follow what I just said? It should be.

James 1:25​

“But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.”

James 2:8​

“If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:”

I refuse to eat swine's flesh or slugs, because the Word of God that Jesus told me to Live by, instructed me in this manner. Specifically concerning "what to eat, what to drink" as Jesus instructed me to Seek the Righteousness of God. I also posted His Words concerning this, and you also ignored them as if HIS Word's didn't exist. But I believe in this Jesus, and the God and Father of All, whose Words this Jesus said to live by.

I didn't receive this instruction from Ellen White, or Gamaliel, or Muhammad. I received this instruction from Paul who said the Holy scriptures were trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works". From Jesus, "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God", and from God His Father, as He instructed;

Lev. 11: 44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy. 46 This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth: 47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

Does it matter? It does to me. And God said I am judged by my works, not yours. Therefore, I judge myself.

One word for you:

Acts 15:19​

“Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.”

Not a word about Israel's many dietary and many other such laws which governed the outward man~laws that governed the hidden man they still were under as a rule to live by. This is not that hard to follow.

 

[Studyman]

First of all, I do not believe in "chances" to be born again. God never gave Abraham a chance, he called Abraham alone by his grace.

Yes, I have heard of and studied about this religion. According to it, Abraham didn't have a choice. Abraham hit the Holy Lottery of Grace whether he bought the ticket or not. God never gave Abraham the chance to choose life or choose death. By some secret Lottery Abraham was chosen to be God's Friend. While Lot's wife and Sodom didn't hit the same Lottery, so God didn't bestow His Love on them, and they were not allowed to be God's Friend. Abraham didn't have to "Put on" God's armor, or "Deny Himself" and follow God". God did it all "for him" to save HIM because God only loves those whose name HE draws out of a hat. So, according to these words from you, before God sheds His Grace on men, they must first be randomly picked by a secret hidden Lottery, never spoken of ever in the entire Bible, that took place before the foundation of the world. And Lot and Nineveh and Abraham hit the Lotto, but Lot's wife and Sodom, along with the rest of non-Calvinists, just wasn't lucky enough to receive God's Grace.

"So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and "Lot went with him": and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran. Didn't Lot choose to "Sojourn with Abraham?

But Lot's wife didn't hit the Lotto of God's Grace. God didn't give her the same protection HE gave to His Lottery winners.

I don't believe in this Holy Lottery religion, with their manmade high days, their own judgments and Sabbaths and your images of God in the likeness of man, "BECAUSE" such a religion is not promoted in the bible, when "Every word" of God is examined. Now a person can create a religion, by carefully selecting a verse here and a verse there, while omitting the rest of Scriptures. This is what the Pharisees and other religious sects and businesses of this world did. But if a person chooses to become a "Doer" of the Christ's Sayings, and not a hearer only, this man will survive the storms of this world, as they have chosen to build their house on the Rock.

Isaiah 51:1,2​

“Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged. Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.”

Didn't Lot choose to come with him?

But what happens when a person includes more than just this one sentence from Isaiah 51? Let's see.

3 For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.

4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

Why do people who have already hit the Lotto, need to hearken to God's Laws? According to you, Abraham didn't have a chance to do otherwise.

5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and "mine arms" shall judge the people; the isles (who builds their house on the Rock) shall wait upon me, and "on mine arm" (Christ) shall they trust.

How is it "Trust" if they have no choice?

6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness "shall not be abolished".

7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, "the people" in whose heart is my law; "fear ye not the reproach of men", neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

So clearly, God through Isaiah was not promoted the Calvinist Holy Lottery philosophy in Isaiah 51. But God did seem to place the importance of Obeying Him, even when this world's men revile them for doing so.

So, you and others believe in chances, as though the final decision is made by the sinner,

I believe what the Holy Scriptures teach, that men are given "Choices" and the Law and Prophets are examples of the consequences of these choices. Paul showed you this in 1 Cor. 10. God knows our choices before we make them, because HE sees our beginning from our end. But you don't, and neither do I. This is undeniable Biblical truth. As I posted, but you ignored, "I (God Almighty) set before you today, Life and Death. Therefore, "Choose Life", (like Abraham did), that you may live.

As to the "final decision", in my understanding God appointed Jesus, that it, the Jesus "of the bible" as the final Judge. And this "BECAUSE" Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore (Because of this) God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows".

That is why I listen to Him and not the promoters of this world's many religious sects, "Who come in Christ's Name".

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man "according as his work shall be".

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that "do" his commandments, that they may "have right" "to the tree of life", and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


I believe this is why Paul teaches men to "Yield themselves unto God", that seeing they may see, and hearing they may hear. And His Truth sets a man free from the religious philosophies and traditions of the prince of this world, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience, who calls Jesus Lord, Lord, but chooses not to "Live by" God's Word, as Jesus instructs.

who according to God's testimony, is at enmity against him, and as though it is in his power to love, believe and repent if just given the opportunity to do so. This is another gospel preach by men, whose eyes have never been open to the truth as of yet.

Here is what Paul actually teaches concerning being at enmity with God

If the man Serves the Law of God with his mind, like Paul did, and "Walks" (Does things) after the Word of God, this man is "Walking after" the Spirit, not "walking" after the Flesh. The man whose mind continues to reject the Word of God, refusing to Walk in them, is walking after the Flesh, and is Carnal. This is why Jesus said to "Live By" Every Word of God, because God is a Spirit, and His Word is Spiritual. This is why Paul said for men to "Yield themselves" unto God, and their body into God's Righteousness, because His Words are Spirit, and they are Life.

As Paul teaches, "Because "the carnal mind" is enmity against God: for it is "not" subject to the law of God, ( that Paul served with his mind, and directed men to "Yield themselves" to) neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are "in the flesh" cannot please God.

The man who serves the Law of God with their mind, and "Walks" after it, is not carnal, just as Jesus served the Law of God in His Mind, and walked after it, was not Carnal.

Your religion will not let you believe these things. This is why Jesus said to "Come out of her". My hope is that you will.

It is in the word of God, and so, I believe it with all of my heart, no problem. Besides, what does Calvinism has to do with God destroying those wicked sodomites? Not one thing.

You bought up Abraham and Abraham's Children. Preaching that God didn't reveal himself to anyone but Israel, even though He destroyed Sodom because they were living ungodly and unrighteously. I can see how you wouldn't want to discuss the Sodomites who were destroyed because God couldn't find even 10 people in the city who was righteous. Given the foundation of your religion is based on the theology that God withholds Grace from some, and grants it to others, through some hidden Holy Lottery system.

41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

So what was it you said, that God never revealed himself to anyone but Israel?

This is why Jesus said for me to "Live by" Every Word of God, so I can discern the many gospels being marketed by the promoters of this world's religious system.

He did not create them just to destroy them, their own sins was the reason he destroyed them. He left them to the lust of their own depraved hearts. God was not under obligation to show any mercy to them, so he did not. God knew who was righteous and who were not, since his power caused them to be righteous

So HE "Caused" Abraham to be righteous, but didn't "Cause" Sodom to be righteous, then slaughtered Sodom, "Because they were not righteous?

Can you not see the utter foolishness in this worldly religious philosophy? God "Caused" the Nation of Nineveh to be Righteous at the preaching of Jonah, but withheld righteousness from Sodom at the preaching of Abraham.

I believe at the preaching of Noah, Abraham and Jonah, God placed through them, "Life and Death", blessing and cursing. Nineveh chose life. Sodom chose death. Paul teaches the same thing.

~he did spare some of Lots household, even though we have no evidence from the scriptures that others were righteous other than Lot, and we would not even he was, if the scriptures did not tell us so. His practical righteousness was very, very small, in comparison to Abraham.

I see, so in your religion, the Holy Lottery has "levels" of righteousness that God causes. Like a scratch off lotto ticket that God gave them. Most receive nothing, some receive only a dollar, like Lot. But a few get the prize of $100, like Abraham.

Fascinating.

I'll finish with this reply in another post.

 

[Studyman]

God's laws addressing our practical living in this world are for all of God's children as "a rule to live by", which laws, are summed up in the ten commandment ~ but are not to be used as a means of being accepted by God, for that would be impossible for us to fulfilled........ is this plain and easy to follow what I just said? It should be.

James 1:25​

“But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.”

Since I am only interested in God's Truth, I like to hear the whole teaching. So once again Red, let's post what James actually says.

James 1: 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness "the engrafted word", which is able to save your souls.

22 But be ye "doers of the word", and not hearers only, "deceiving your own selves".

23 For if any "be a hearer of the word", and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth "his way", and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he "being not" "a forgetful hearer", "but a doer" of the work, "this man" shall be blessed "in his deed".

So once again, can you not see how his gospel and yours split, when more than one sentence from James is considered?

James 2:8​

“If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:”

And again, I will post more of James' words, so as to understand what he is actually teaching.

James 2: 8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have "respect to persons", ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law "as transgressors".

10 For (Because) whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12 "So speak ye", and so do, as they "that shall be judged" by the law of liberty.

So once again, your gospel, and the Gospel James is promoting, are two completely opposite teachings when "Every Word" Inspired by God that James spoke in considered.

I know how popular the religious tradition of this world is to simply use the Bible as nothing more than a tool of justification, for whatever religious sect of business of this world men adopt.

My hope is that you might humble yourself just a little, to all the Words you didn't want to post, and be corrected by them.

One word for you:

Acts 15:19​

“Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.”

Not a word about Israel's many dietary and many other such laws which governed the outward man~laws that governed the hidden man they still were under as a rule to live by. This is not that hard to follow.

The Command not to eat Blood, or the animal whose Blood was not drained, is from the Same "dietary" (as you call them) laws that also instructed men not to eat maggots or swine's flesh, to abstain from pollutions of Idols, and from fornication. Same God, Same Law, same Moses.

This is true, but your religion will not let you believe it. This is why Jesus said to "Come out of her".

Where is the command to Love thy neighbor as thyself, another Law of Moses? Not a word! Where is the command to Love God with all their hearts, another Law of Moses? Not a Word! Where is the command not to kill, or not to hate your brother within your heart, another Law of Moses? Not a Word!

Again, if you would post more than one sentence from Acts, actually seeking the Kingdom of God and "HIS" Righteousness as the Jesus "of the bible" instructs, you would know where the Apostles sent them, to find God's other "Instruction in Righteousness" that was not mentioned here. Here let me, once again, post the Scripture you omitted, that shows where the Apostles directed the Gentiles to go, to find where Jesus said to go, "and all these things shall be added unto you".

Acts 15: 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (Law of Moses) and from fornication, (Law of Moses) and from things strangled, (Law of Moses) and from blood. (Law of Moses)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city "them that preach him", being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

And who is Moses? He is the Prophet that God chose to show the World "all his works from the beginning of the world."

And the Church of God are those who "are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which "God" (Not you Red, not Calvinism, not the Pope, not Kenneth Copeland, but which "GOD") hath "before ordained" that we should walk in them".

Can you not understand these things?


Or do you choose to be another who will not be persuaded, as the Jesus of the Bible teaches.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[Red Baker]

I refuse to eat swine's flesh or slugs, because the Word of God that Jesus told me to Live by, instructed me in this manner. Specifically concerning "what to eat, what to drink" as Jesus instructed me to Seek the Righteousness of God. I also posted His Words concerning this, and you also ignored them as if HIS Word's didn't exist. But I believe in this Jesus, and the God and Father of All, whose Words this Jesus said to live by.

Let me add another thought, or two, from what you said above. Do you truly understand what Jesus meant when he said: "But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness"...Matthew 6:33

But seek first the kingdom of God
Meaning the Gospel, and the ministration of it; in which sense this phrase is often used, see ( Matthew 21:43; Mark 1:14; Luke 4:43 Luke 9:2-60; Luke 16:16; etc. ) and which is diligently to be sought after, and the knowledge thereof; to be constantly attended on, and to be preferred to our necessary food, to raiment, or riches, or any enjoyment of life: which also would include kingdom of glory in its final and eternal phase, which is prepared by God, and is his gift that Christ secured for his people; for which he makes his people meet by providing a righteousness for them. .

And his righteousness...........
The righteousness of God, which is revealed in the Gospel, and is what gives a right and title to the kingdom of glory in the world to come. This is not the righteousness of man, but of God; and is no other than the righteousness of Christ; so called, because he is God who has wrought it; it is what God approves of, accepts, and imputes, and which only can justify in his sight, and give an abundant entrance into his kingdom and glory. Heaven is to be sought for in the first place, as the perfection of the saints' happiness; and the knowledge of Christ's righteousness is to be sought for, and laid hold on by faith, as the only way and means of enjoying that happiness; without which, there will be no entering into the kingdom of God in that day.

This does not come by what you may eat, or may not eat, drink or may not drink.

Romans 14:17​

“For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.”

Serving God and living righteously is an inward acts of one's heart being ruled by the scriptures, not so much by what one drinks, eats, wears, touch or not touch, go or not go, etc. serving and believing in God when no one else sees you and even knows you, but living as though only God knows your every thought and actions and deeds. This is true religion and is acceptable unto God. Anything less than this is a lie and is not of God.