Titus 3 order of salvation

[The Rogue Tomato]

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

 

[Fred]

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

Hi RT,

Doesn't one have to believe in order to obtain the reception of the Spirit (Ephesians 1:13)?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Hi RT,

Doesn't one have to believe in order to obtain the reception of the Spirit (Ephesians 1:13)?

No, one has to be regenerated by the Spirit, that is, born from above, in order to believe.

5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”

 

[Fred]

No, one has to be regenerated by the Spirit, that is, born from above, in order to believe.

5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”

It doesn't teach that in John 3. It says one must be born of the Spirit, and in order to be born of the Spirit one must believe.

John 7:37-39
(37) Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
(38) He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’”
(39) But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

It doesn't teach that in John 3. It says one must be born of the Spirit, and in order to be born of the Spirit one must believe.

John 7:37-39
(37) Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
(38) He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’”
(39) But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

You can't believe without the Spirit.

14 But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Fred]

You can't believe without the Spirit.

14 But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ye,. it requires the Spirit to convict and draw.

 

[praise_yeshua]

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

This takes place after the Gospel.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You can't believe without the Spirit.

14 But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That is why the Gospel is first preached. It is the bridge between Spiritual things and man. It is why Christ didn't die in a "backroom" or inside the Temple with just a single witness. Christ died for all the world to see through the Gospel.

These types of arguments are very empty and self serving. Just empty "talking points" without any substance whatsoever.

 

[civic]

It doesn't teach that in John 3. It says one must be born of the Spirit, and in order to be born of the Spirit one must believe.

John 7:37-39
(37) Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
(38) He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’”
(39) But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Yes John opens up his gospel declaring belief comes before life/new birth in John 1:12-13 and closes his gospel saying the same thing in John 20:31.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

That is why the Gospel is first preached. It is the bridge between Spiritual things and man. It is why Christ didn't die in a "backroom" or inside the Temple with just a single witness. Christ died for all the world to see through the Gospel.

The natural man can't "hear" the Gospel.

14 But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The natural man can't "hear" the Gospel.

14 But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I read it the first time. I read it long before a single Calvinist ever referenced it to me with this false claim. I've debated it for decades. Nothing but a "talking point". There is nothing in that verse that says the natural man can not accept the Gospel. The Gospel is preached to all men. The natural man can accept the Gospel.

Didn't you accept the Gospel?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes John opens up his gospel declaring belief comes before life/new birth in John 1:12-13 and closes his gospel saying the same thing in John 20:31.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Peter accepted Jesus.

 

[civic]

The natural man can't "hear" the Gospel.

14 But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That’s a misinterpretation of 1 Cor 2. The context is the deep things of God discerned by the Spirit and the the thoughts of God taught by the same Spirit.

The gospel is not mentioned in that context.

 

[civic]

And Paul several times in Acts used persuasion and reasoning with unbelievers to proclaim the truth to them. It’s nothing but a fallacious argument used by Calvinists with the natural man, the carnal man and those dead in their sins. Dead is also abused by the same reformed doctrine.

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

And Paul several times in Acts used persuasion and reasoning with unbelievers to proclaim the truth to them. It’s nothing but a fallacious argument used by Calvinists with the natural man, the carnal man and those dead in their sins. Dead is also abused by the same reformed doctrine.

hope this helps !!!

Yep... The Calvinist talking points usually go like this....

Natural men cannot receive the Gospel....
Didn't you receive the Gospel?
Yes. I received the Gospel
How did you receive the Gospel since you're obviously a natural man?
God chose me
Okay, how does that equal "the natural man cannot receive the Gospel"?
God regenerated me first.
God did? Then you're not an "natural man"?
No. I'm a natural man.
If God regenerated you, then you're not a natural man.
Yes. I am. I'm just like everyone else.
I don't see how that works? Can you give more details?
No. Just believe it. It is all according to "God's good pleasure".
So it is good and pleasurable to God to regenerate you (someone that is supposedly just like everyone else) and not everyone one else that you claim you're just like?
Yes.
Is Grace unmerited?
Correct.
Then how do you establish the lack of "merit" within your theology with "God's Good Pleasure"?
Just believe it.

 

[civic]

Yep... The Calvinist talking points usually go like this....

Natural men cannot receive the Gospel....
Didn't you receive the Gospel?
Yes. I received the Gospel
How did you receive the Gospel since you're obviously a natural man?
God chose me
Okay, how does that equal "the natural man cannot receive the Gospel"?
God regenerated me first.
God did? Then you're not an "natural man"?
No. I'm a natural man.
If God regenerated you, then you're not a natural man.
Yes. I am. I'm just like everyone else.
I don't see how that works? Can you give more details?
No. Just believe it. It is all according to "God's good pleasure".
So it is good and pleasurable to God to regenerate you (someone that is supposedly just like everyone else) and not everyone one else that you claim you're just like?
Yes.
Is Grace unmerited?
Correct.
Then how do you establish the lack of "merit" within your theology with "God's Good Pleasure"?
Just believe it.

yes the who's on first Abbot and Costello routine lol.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

To say man chooses of his own will is to assign some credit to man for his own salvation. This is insulting to God because it gives man something about which to boast. No matter what you attribute to the decision, it is man-centered. One was wiser than another. One was smarter than another. One was more "spiritual" than another. Sure, you may not "boast" openly, but your soteriology is based on boasting.

God says in so many places that boasting is excluded. And he excludes the flesh as taking part in salvation.

26 For consider your calling, brothers and sisters, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong

 

[praise_yeshua]

To say man chooses of his own will is to assign some credit to man for his own salvation.

To say God chose some men before the foundation of the world is to credit man for God's choice. God's choices are meritorious. Calvinists seem to believe they can simply say "God chose me" and exclude any sense of a meritorious choice being made. They can't. It is simply impossible. Merit is to be found in the choice itself. You can't say that God's choices are not meritorious. Nor can you pretend that "blaming" God for something that benefits you..... as a non meritorious choice. You're basically trying to exclude your own meritorious benefit by saying....

"God did it"...... "not me".

This is insulting to God because it gives man something about which to boast.

Like the Calvinist isn't boasting of what they believe is "God's choice in THEM"... while excluding those that they claim are just like them.

No matter what you attribute to the decision, it is man-centered.

Glad you agree. Correct. Calvinism is man-centered".

One was wiser than another. One was smarter than another. One was more "spiritual" than another. Sure, you may not "boast" openly, but your soteriology is based on boasting.

Correct. The Calvinist is boasting. The Calvinist is making themselves wiser, smarter, and more spiritual than those others less fortunate. Others they claim are just like them.

God says in so many places that boasting is excluded. And he excludes the flesh as taking part in salvation.

26 For consider your calling, brothers and sisters, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong

Correct. The Calvinist is not claiming weakness. They are claiming empowerment for themselves to the exclusion of their brothers in Adam.

Reminds me of

John 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man..

Sounds so very familiar. "God chose us"..... has been on the lips of countless men throughout history. It didn't start with Calvin nor Augustine. Even though they certainly influenced it.

 

[Ozias]

If regeneration is the beginning of salvation and sanctification (and I think they are), then the Calvinist ordo salutis, which places regeneration prior to saving faith, and thus prior to justification and the gift of the Spirit, is highly problematic.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

If regeneration is the beginning of salvation and sanctification (and I think they are), then the Calvinist ordo salutis, which places regeneration prior to saving faith, and thus prior to justification and the gift of the Spirit, is highly problematic.

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

I don't find that problematic. I find it scriptural.