Titus 3 order of salvation

[praise_yeshua]

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

I don't find that problematic. I find it scriptural.

Where do you find this being placed first in operation from these verses. I see an supported claim being made not supported by the evidence referenced.

 

[civic]

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

The Biblical order

1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Rom 8:30
9- Sanctification- Rom 8
10- Glorification Rom 8:30

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

cart before the horse,

paliggenesia: regeneration, renewal
Original Word: παλιγγενεσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: paliggenesia
Phonetic Spelling: (pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah)
Definition: regeneration, renewal
Usage: a new birth, regeneration, renewal. properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The Biblical order

1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Rom 8:30
9- Sanctification- Rom 8
10- Glorification Rom 8:30

hope this helps !!!

That is essential what I believe too. I will say that #5 and #6 could be switched. I lean toward enlighten associated with the new birth being necessary before repentance can be complete. You could almost combine them.

 

[civic]

That is essential what I believe too. I will say that #5 and #6 could be switched. I lean toward enlighten associated with the new birth being necessary before repentance can be complete. You could almost combine them.

I'm not dogmatic either but scripture in many places link faith/repentance together as a unit. Much like 2 sides of the same coin. Do you agree ? Thanks !

PS- I think repentance is the by product of genuine faith.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm not dogmatic either but scripture in many places link faith/repentance together as a unit. Much like 2 side of the same coin. Do you agree ? Thanks !

PS- I think repentance is the by product of genuine faith.

Agreed on all the above.

 

[TibiasDad]

To say man chooses of his own will is to assign some credit to man for his own salvation

Utter nonsense! It is by grace through faith that we are saved because works can never make us worthy! We are never worthy of God’s kindnesses; our actions are as “filthy rags”, capable of meriting absolutely nothing in God’s sight and ledger.

No Arminian believes that man’s actions can make him worthy in God’s eyes, for the simple and undeniable fact that God cannot be obligated by anything outside of himself! It’s impossible!!

Put you big boy pants on and lose the straw man argument you’ve posited and maybe a good conversation can be had; but not if you’re going to maintain this line of belief. Something is not true because you have said it, or because it has been repeated ad nauseum by others!


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

No, one has to be regenerated by the Spirit, that is, born from above, in order to believe.

5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”

Have you ever noticed that “believing” is not said to be impossible without being “born of the Spirit”; only entering “the Kingdom of God” is said to be impossible. You cannot “rightly divide the word of truth” by replacing or adding something to what is specifically said. Entering the Kingdom is not the same thing as believing in the gospel!

Doug

 

[civic]

Utter nonsense! It is by grace through faith that we are saved because works can never make us worthy! We are never worthy of God’s kindnesses; our actions are as “filthy rags”, capable of meriting absolutely nothing in God’s sight and ledger.

No Arminian believes that man’s actions can make him worthy in God’s eyes, for the simple and undeniable fact that God cannot be obligated by anything outside of himself! It’s impossible!!

Put you big boy pants on and lose the straw man argument you’ve posited and maybe a good conversation can be had; but not if you’re going to maintain this line of belief. Something is not true because you have said it, or because it has been repeated ad nauseum by others!


Doug

Exactly what he is describing is pelagianism, not Arminianism or Provisionism.

 

[360watt]

I think you gotta be careful with repent not meaning a work of fleeing from sin.. ie 'turning from sin' ... But meaning changing from unbelief in Jesus to belief.

The message of salvation is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ...from unbelief to belief. Not reduce sin in your life and then turn from the sin to Jesus.

This is all through the book of John

 

[TibiasDad]

I think you gotta be careful with repent not meaning a work of fleeing from sin.. ie 'turning from sin' ... But meaning changing from unbelief in Jesus to belief.

The message of salvation is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ...from unbelief to belief. Not reduce sin in your life and then turn from the sin to Jesus.

This is all through the book of John

To believe in Christ is to commit to living as Jesus lived, which necessitates “turning from” your old sinful behaviors, for Jesus didn’t sin! Repentance doesn’t mean “make yourself more holy (ie, reduce sin) so you can come to Jesus”, it means when we come to Jesus, we are acknowledging that we are turning away from our old ways to his new way of life.


Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

To believe in Christ is to commit to living as Jesus lived, which necessitates “turning from” your old sinful behaviors, for Jesus didn’t sin! Repentance doesn’t mean “make yourself more holy (ie, reduce sin) so you can come to Jesus”, it means when we come to Jesus, we are acknowledging that we are turning away from our old ways to his new way of life.


Doug

When "repentance" is involved, just how can you know your sin without the help of God relative to the Holy Spirit?

Repentance can begin at faith but it is never complete until the work of the Spirit of God establishes Godly sorrow.

 

[TibiasDad]

When "repentance" is involved, just how can you know your sin without the help of God relative to the Holy Spirit?

Repentance can begin at faith but it is never complete until the work of the Spirit of God establishes Godly sorrow.

You can’t repent of something of which you are unaware! The fact of truly coming to Jesus means that you are sorrowful over your sin and are seeking forgiveness.


Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

You can’t repent of something of which you are unaware! The fact of truly coming to Jesus means that you are sorrowful over your sin and are seeking forgiveness.


Doug

My point exactly. The process of salvation imparts knowledge to us to enable us to please God through faith.

 

[sawdust]

You can't believe without the Spirit.

14 But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That's why the Gospel is delivered wrapped up in grace. Grace is God's power to work His will, freely given from His merciful nature. Grace isn't simply a "warm fuzzy" God has but is strongly connected to His strength and power.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

The natural man is like a man born without eyes but the Spirit by grace acts like a surrogate and makes the truth known so that a man might give his own answer to God regarding His Christ. This is why even the most reprobate knows the truth because it is God Himself who manifests that truth to them even without the new birth. The irony is, you can't be an atheist unless you understand what the phrase "God exists" means at it's basic level.

Rom.1:18-23
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who [d]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

The call is to believe the Gospel for the Gospel is the power unto salvation. To say one must be saved (regenerated) in order to believe the word that saves you is circular to the extreme. We don't get saved to be saved.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

 

[360watt]

To believe in Christ is to commit to living as Jesus lived, which necessitates “turning from” your old sinful behaviors, for Jesus didn’t sin! Repentance doesn’t mean “make yourself more holy (ie, reduce sin) so you can come to Jesus”, it means when we come to Jesus, we are acknowledging that we are turning away from our old ways to his new way of life.


Doug

Okay, the problem as I see it is... If we are committing to a model of behaviour for Jesus before we are actually converted... Isn't that working for salvation?

This is the issue I have with 'committing your life to Christ'

If you fail in the commitment after conversion.. then people can easily say never saved to begin with.

But if it is purely and simply ..believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.. then if we fail in our walk after conversion..it wasn't any of our behaviour of effort that got us saved...so the never saved to begin with line.. isn't fair.

Now..I'm not saying you aren't converted because youve likely believed on Jesus Christ anyway. From unbelief to belief. There are just things they get added to tracts that can be easily misconstrued or interpreted a number of ways.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Okay, the problem as I see it is... If we are committing to a model of behaviour for Jesus before we are actually converted... Isn't that working for salvation?

This is the issue I have with 'committing your life to Christ'

If you fail in the commitment after conversion.. then people can easily say never saved to begin with.

But if it is purely and simply ..believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.. then if we fail in our walk after conversion..it wasn't any of our behaviour of effort that got us saved...so the never saved to begin with line.. isn't fair.

Now..I'm not saying you aren't converted because youve likely believed on Jesus Christ anyway. From unbelief to belief. There are just things they get added to tracts that can be easily misconstrued or interpreted a number of ways.

Your own works to please God will be burned up and discarded. Works originating from the Holy Spirit within you will be rewarded. That's how I read "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling because it is God who works in you to will and to do".

 

[Fred]

Does the Lord call a person (Acts 2:39) so that the person calls on Him (Acts 2:21)?

Joel 2:32
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls.

 

[TibiasDad]

Okay, the problem as I see it is... If we are committing to a model of behaviour for Jesus before we are actually converted... Isn't that working for salvation?

This is the issue I have with 'committing your life to Christ'

If you fail in the commitment after conversion.. then people can easily say never saved to begin with.

But if it is purely and simply ..believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.. then if we fail in our walk after conversion..it wasn't any of our behaviour of effort that got us saved...so the never saved to begin with line.. isn't fair.

Now..I'm not saying you aren't converted because youve likely believed on Jesus Christ anyway. From unbelief to belief. There are just things they get added to tracts that can be easily misconstrued or interpreted a number of ways.

There is no belief without obedience! It is because we believe the gospel that we repent. Belief is first in logical order, confession and repentance are the children of belief, and the evidence that belief is genuine!

There is, of course, a progression of maturity in our faith, but the Spirit within the believer informs us of the need to stop the practice of sin in our lives. It is an instinctive awareness in a believer that the behavior for which we are forgiven is not to be continued.

Doug

 

[civic]

There is no belief without obedience! It is because we believe the gospel that we repent. Belief is first in logical order, confession and repentance are the children of belief, and the evidence that belief is genuine!

There is, of course, a progression of maturity in our faith, but the Spirit within the believer informs us of the need to stop the practice of sin in our lives. It is an instinctive awareness in a believer that the behavior for which we are forgiven is not to be continued.

Doug

Yes genuine faith results in repentance and obedience, fruit and good works are the result.