Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Doug Brents]

John 1:14 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking.

That is not what Scripture says. The Word was not a purpose, plan, or just the wisdom of God; the Word WAS God. You have a talent for seeing only what you want to see, and focusing only on those things that support what you already believe. But that is not how Scripture is supposed to be read. You must get rid of what you already believe, presuppositions you have, what you have been taught by false teachers; and let Scripture guide your doctrine.

Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

Again, that is not what Scripture says. Yes, the written Word had a beginning when it was put to paper. And Jesus' physical form had a beginning when He was born in the flesh. But that is not when Scripture came into being, nor when Jesus' spirit came into being. Scripture has always existed, because God has always existed, and God cannot change (He is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb 13:8)).

 

[Peterlag]

That is not what Scripture says. The Word was not a purpose, plan, or just the wisdom of God; the Word WAS God. You have a talent for seeing only what you want to see, and focusing only on those things that support what you already believe. But that is not how Scripture is supposed to be read. You must get rid of what you already believe, presuppositions you have, what you have been taught by false teachers; and let Scripture guide your doctrine.

Again, that is not what Scripture says. Yes, the written Word had a beginning when it was put to paper. And Jesus' physical form had a beginning when He was born in the flesh. But that is not when Scripture came into being, nor when Jesus' spirit came into being. Scripture has always existed, because God has always existed, and God cannot change (He is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb 13:8)).

I would like one verse that actually calls Jesus God the Son.

One verse that actually says Jesus is a god-man.
One verse that actually says we must believe Jesus is God.
One verse that actually says we must believe God is three persons.
One verse out of approximately 31,102 Bible verses that says God is Triune.
One verse that actually says Jesus is both 100 percent God and 100 percent man.
One verse that actually says Jesus is God because if it's that important of a doctrine it should have been plainly and clearly taught by someone somewhere.

If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...

Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.

The Epistles would have writings like...

Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.

And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

 

[Doug Brents]

I would like one verse that actually calls Jesus God the Son.

One verse that actually says Jesus is a god-man.
One verse that actually says we must believe Jesus is God.
One verse that actually says we must believe God is three persons.
One verse out of approximately 31,102 Bible verses that says God is Triune.
One verse that actually says Jesus is both 100 percent God and 100 percent man.
One verse that actually says Jesus is God because if it's that important of a doctrine it should have been plainly and clearly taught by someone somewhere.

If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it?

Because God wants people who are willing to seek Him; to put effort into finding Him; to invest their life into knowing His heart. If He spoon-fed us every answer we would never develop a greater and ever-growing desire for more of Him.

I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...

Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.

The Epistles would have writings like...

Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.

And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

When you are stumped by a response, knowing you have lost the point, your default is to back up to the beginning with this nonsense to make it look like you are still in control. These questions have already been answered. These Scripture references have already been given. Open your eyes to the truth, and let God heal you. Let Jesus, the Lord God, enter your heart and purify you.

 

[Peterlag]

Because God wants people who are willing to seek Him; to put effort into finding Him; to invest their life into knowing His heart. If He spoon-fed us every answer we would never develop a greater and ever-growing desire for more of Him.

When you are stumped by a response, knowing you have lost the point, your default is to back up to the beginning with this nonsense to make it look like you are still in control. These questions have already been answered. These Scripture references have already been given. Open your eyes to the truth, and let God heal you. Let Jesus, the Lord God, enter your heart and purify you.

 

[Doug Brents]

View attachment 2679

A very poor argument, and untrue in all cases relevant to God.

 

[FreeInChrist]

John 1:14 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.

If I was not so dog gone busy trying to get ready for a move I would have aa whole lot more to say.

John 1:14

Is it your understanding that every single translation there is is bad?

Of the following 43 translations that includes the NWT which is wrong... bearing in mind that they all pretty much say the same thing... (e.g. 2+2=4 and 3+1=4}

New International Version
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

New Living Translation
So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.

English Standard Version
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Berean Standard Bible
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Berean Literal Bible
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

King James Bible
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

New King James Version
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

New American Standard Bible
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

NASB 1995
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

NASB 1977
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Legacy Standard Bible
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Amplified Bible
And the Word (Christ) became flesh, and lived among us; and we [actually] saw His glory, glory as belongs to the [One and] only begotten Son of the Father, [the Son who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, who is] full of grace and truth (absolutely free of deception).

Christian Standard Bible
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. We observed his glory, the glory as the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We observed His glory, the glory as the One and Only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

American Standard Version
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

Contemporary English Version
The Word became a human being and lived here with us. We saw his true glory, the glory of the only Son of the Father. From him the complete gifts of undeserved grace and truth have come down to us.

English Revised Version
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The Word became human and lived among us. We saw his glory. It was the glory that the Father shares with his only Son, a glory full of kindness and truth.

Good News Translation
The Word became a human being and, full of grace and truth, lived among us. We saw his glory, the glory which he received as the Father's only Son.

International Standard Version
The Word became flesh and lived among us. We gazed on his glory, the kind of glory that belongs to the Father's unique Son, who is full of grace and truth.

NET Bible
Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory--the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father.

New Heart English Bible
And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Weymouth New Testament
And the Word came in the flesh, and lived for a time in our midst, so that we saw His glory--the glory as of the Father's only Son, sent from His presence. He was full of grace and truth.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

World English Bible
The Word became flesh and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the only born Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of [the] only begotten of [the] Father, full of grace and truth.

Berean Literal Bible
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we beheld His glory, a glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Young's Literal Translation
And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

Smith's Literal Translation
And the Word was flesh, and dwelt with us, (and we beheld his glory, as the glory of the only born of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Catholic Public Domain Version
And the Word became flesh, and he lived among us, and we saw his glory, glory like that of an only-begotten son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

New American Bible
And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

New Revised Standard Version
And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.
Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw his glory, a glory like that of the firstborn of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of The Only Begotten of The Father, full of grace and truth.
NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
And the WORD became flesh, and tabernacled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and of truth.

Godbey New Testament
The Word was made flesh, and tented among us (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten with the Father), full of grace and truth.

Haweis New Testament
And the Word became incarnate, and tabernacled with us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Mace New Testament
The Logos became incarnate, and had his tabernacle among us, being full of grace and truth; and we contemplated his glory, such glory as the Monogenes derived from the father.

Weymouth New Testament
And the Word came in the flesh, and lived for a time in our midst, so that we saw His glory--the glory as of the Father's only Son, sent from His presence. He was full of grace and truth.

Worrell New Testament
And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us, (and we beheld His glory—glory as of the Only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

Worsley New Testament
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, being full of grace and truth: and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father.

New World Translation
So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.

NOW: With out adding an English translation to John 1:14.....

How do YOU translate the following? ( I only provided the words highlighted from the above translations)

Kai ho Logos sarx egeneto kai eskēnōsen en hēmin

Καὶ ὁ Λόγος Λόγος ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν

2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

 

[TomL]

No it's not Scripture. It's your view of it that you think is Scripture.

LOL show it is not scripture

It's scripture you need to read and understand but refuse to do so

John 1:1–3 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

He was in the beginning. All things came into being through him, and without him, nothing came into being.


John 1:4–18 (NASB 95) — 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

The clear reference is Christ

He was the Word who was with God and was God

He was the light

The light was made flesh and came into the world

The World was made through him but did not know him

But as many as receive him, he makes the children of God.

No one had seen God at any time, but He was seen and termed God.

 

[Peterlag]

LOL show it is not scripture

It's scripture you need to read and understand but refuse to do so

John 1:1–3 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

He was in the beginning. All things came into being through him, and without him, nothing came into being.


John 1:4–18 (NASB 95) — 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

The clear reference is Christ

He was the Word who was with God and was God

He was the light

The light was made flesh and came into the world

The World was made through him but did not know him

But as many as receive him, he makes the children of God.

No one had seen God at any time, but He was seen and termed God.

I have showed it's not Scripture, but rather your view of it. In fact, I have done this many times. You just simply tell me you're right and it's Scripture and that I'm wrong because I will not believe the Scripture. You don't say I don't believe your view of Scripture. You say I do not believe Scripture. In your mind whatever you quote is God's Word and whatever I quote is my opinion.

 

[Peterlag]

A very poor argument, and untrue in all cases relevant to God.

It's a poor argument to say something is not taught because God wants us to work hard to try to find it.

 

[Doug Brents]

It's a poor argument to say something is not taught because God wants us to work hard to try to find it.

I didn't say it is not taught. You asked why it is not taught in one place with a clear statement, but pieced throughout Scripture so that it has to be put together like a puzzle. It is taught very clearly in Scripture that Jesus is God, and that He has always existed. You are ignoring many passages of Scripture, and/or claiming that they are being "misinterpreted" or "taken out of context". But the fact remains that it is very clearly stated in Scripture in many places that Jesus is God, has always existed, and is responsible for everything that exists outside of God (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

Speaking of which, it is funny that you do not dispute the deity of the Holy Spirit, but you do dispute the deity of Jesus. The Holy Spirit is a separate being from the Father, yet you don't seem to argue against His deity. Why is that?

 

[Peterlag]

I didn't say it is not taught. You asked why it is not taught in one place with a clear statement, but pieced throughout Scripture so that it has to be put together like a puzzle. It is taught very clearly in Scripture that Jesus is God, and that He has always existed. You are ignoring many passages of Scripture, and/or claiming that they are being "misinterpreted" or "taken out of context". But the fact remains that it is very clearly stated in Scripture in many places that Jesus is God, has always existed, and is responsible for everything that exists outside of God (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

Speaking of which, it is funny that you do not dispute the deity of the Holy Spirit, but you do dispute the deity of Jesus. The Holy Spirit is a separate being from the Father, yet you don't seem to argue against His deity. Why is that?

Data On The Holy Spirit | The Gift of God’s Spirit Has Changed

The data on the Holy Spirit. The gift of God's spirit has changed. Learn more about data on the Holy Spirit here at Walking By The Spirit and read the free book.

walking-by-the-spirit.com

 

[Doug Brents]

Data On The Holy Spirit | The Gift of God’s Spirit Has Changed

The data on the Holy Spirit. The gift of God's spirit has changed. Learn more about data on the Holy Spirit here at Walking By The Spirit and read the free book.

walking-by-the-spirit.com

Is all you can do is parrot what others have said? Give us YOUR understanding of what Scripture says. If we wanted to debate whoever wrote this book, we would seek them out. And maybe I will. But for now, it is you who needs to defend your beliefs.

 

[mikesw]

Is all you can do is parrot what others have said? Give us YOUR understanding of what Scripture says. If we wanted to debate whoever wrote this book, we would seek them out. And maybe I will. But for now, it is you who needs to defend your beliefs.

that is his content. He has some weird ideas about the topic of spirit that I would not venture to read since the distortions to this point act as a warning sign. He studied at the Atlanta Bible College, if memory serves -- Atlanta Bible College https://www.itc.edu/about/
An AI question on their theology shares:
Atlanta Bible College is part of the Church of God General Conference and is historically rooted in a non‑Trinitarian, Adventist, and restorationist theological tradition rather than a mainstream evangelical or Reformed center. It emphasizes a biblical Unitarian view of God (the Father alone as God), the future, literal kingdom of God on earth, and believer’s baptism.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Data On The Holy Spirit | The Gift of God’s Spirit Has Changed

The data on the Holy Spirit. The gift of God's spirit has changed. Learn more about data on the Holy Spirit here at Walking By The Spirit and read the free book.

walking-by-the-spirit.com

In the copy paragraph before the link it says.

"The gift of God’s spirit has changed"

So I looked at the link and I am SMH.

 

[FreeInChrist]

that is his content. He has some weird ideas about the topic of spirit that I would not venture to read since the distortions to this point act as a warning sign. He studied at the Atlanta Bible College, if memory serves -- Atlanta Bible College https://www.itc.edu/about/
An AI question on their theology shares:
Atlanta Bible College is part of the Church of God General Conference and is historically rooted in a non‑Trinitarian, Adventist, and restorationist theological tradition rather than a mainstream evangelical or Reformed center. It emphasizes a biblical Unitarian view of God (the Father alone as God), the future, literal kingdom of God on earth, and believer’s baptism.

Good to know.

 

[TomL]

I have showed it's not Scripture, but rather your view of it. In fact, I have done this many times. You just simply tell me you're right and it's Scripture and that I'm wrong because I will not believe the Scripture. You don't say I don't believe your view of Scripture. You say I do not believe Scripture. In your mind whatever you quote is God's Word and whatever I quote is my opinion.

Sorry you have never done that

Rather you appealed to a particular idea seen in faulty translations.

1. Ignoring the multitude of translations contrary to what you depend on.
2. The fact that those translations wind up contradicting themselves in later verses of John and Revelation
3 God is not an impersonal "it," so seeing the word is God he cannot be impersonal thing
4 The context reveals the Word to be Jesus
5 The fact that no one has ever seen God the Father means they must have seen Jesus the Word.

As I had stated

LOL show it is not scripture

It's scripture you need to read and understand but refuse to do so

John 1:1–3 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

He was in the beginning. All things came into being through him, and without him, nothing came into being.


John 1:4–18 (NASB 95) — 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

The clear reference is Christ

He was the Word who was with God and was God

He was the light

The light was made flesh and came into the world

The World was made through him but did not know him

But as many as receive him, he makes the children of God.

No one had seen God at any time, but He was seen and termed God.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I would like one verse that actually calls Jesus God the Son.

One verse that actually says Jesus is a god-man.
One verse that actually says we must believe Jesus is God.
One verse that actually says we must believe God is three persons.
One verse out of approximately 31,102 Bible verses that says God is Triune.
One verse that actually says Jesus is both 100 percent God and 100 percent man.
One verse that actually says Jesus is God because if it's that important of a doctrine it should have been plainly and clearly taught by someone somewhere.

If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...

Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.

The Epistles would have writings like...

Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.

And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

You do not have a need to know, that is why it is veiled to you.

I will give you one verse with 42 translations and ask you if you do or do not see it. NO HIGHLIGHTING or BOLDING just as written... and you let us know. ROMANS 9:5


New International Version
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

New Living Translation
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.

English Standard Version
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Berean Standard Bible
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.

Berean Literal Bible
whose are the patriarchs; and from whom is Christ according to the flesh, being God over all, blessed to the ages. Amen.

King James Bible
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

New King James Version
of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

New American Standard Bible
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

NASB 1995
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

NASB 1977
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Legacy Standard Bible
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Amplified Bible
To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to His natural descent, came the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), He who is exalted and supreme over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Christian Standard Bible
The ancestors are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, praised forever. Amen.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The ancestors are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah, who is God over all, praised forever. Amen.

American Standard Version
whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Contemporary English Version
They have those famous ancestors, who were also the ancestors of the Christ. I pray that God, who rules over all, will be praised forever! Amen.

English Revised Version
whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The Messiah is descended from their ancestors according to his human nature. The Messiah is God over everything, forever blessed. Amen.

Good News Translation
they are descended from the famous Hebrew ancestors; and Christ, as a human being, belongs to their race. May God, who rules over all, be praised forever! Amen.

International Standard Version
To the Israelis belong the patriarchs, and from them, the Messiah descended, who is God over all, the one who is forever blessed. Amen.

NET Bible
To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

New Heart English Bible
of whom are the patriarchs, and from whom is the Christ, as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God, blessed forever. Amen.

Webster's Bible Translation
Whose are the fathers, and from whom according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Weymouth New Testament
To them the Patriarchs belong, and from them in respect of His human lineage came the Christ, who is exalted above all, God blessed throughout the Ages. Amen.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.

World English Bible
of whom are the fathers, and from whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God, blessed forever. Amen.
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh, who is God over all, blessed for all ages. Amen.

Berean Literal Bible
whose are the patriarchs; and from whom is Christ according to the flesh, being God over all, blessed to the ages. Amen.

Young's Literal Translation
whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.

Smith's Literal Translation
Whose the fathers, and from whom Christ according to the flesh, who being God over all, praised forever. Amen.
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
Whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Catholic Public Domain Version
Theirs are the fathers, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is over all things, blessed God, for all eternity. Amen.

New American Bible
theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.

New Revised Standard Version
to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
Whose are the fathers, from among whom Christ appeared in the flesh, who is God over all, to whom are due praises and thanksgiving, for ever and ever. Amen.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And the Patriarchs; and from them The Messiah appeared in the flesh, who is The God Who is over all, to Whom are praises and blessings to the eternity of eternities, amen.
NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
to whom belong the fathers, and of whom is the Christ, as it respects the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Godbey New Testament
of whom are the fathers, and of whom is Christ according to the flesh. Who is over all, God blessed forever: amen.

Haweis New Testament
of whom are the fathers, and from whom as respecting the flesh Christ sprung, who is over all, the blessed God for evermore. Amen.

Mace New Testament
who are the offspring of the patriarchs, and of whom as to the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Weymouth New Testament
To them the Patriarchs belong, and from them in respect of His human lineage came the Christ, who is exalted above all, God blessed throughout the Ages. Amen.

Worrell New Testament
whose are the fathers; and of whom, according to flesh, is the Christ, Who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Worsley New Testament
whose are the fathers, and of whom, as to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all God blessed for ever. Amen.

BTW... YOU NEVER ANSWERED MY EARLIER POST..... Why?

Guess you will ignore this one also.....!

 

[mikesw]

You do not have a need to know, that is why it is veiled to you.

I will give you one verse with 42 translations and ask you if you do or do not see it. NO HIGHLIGHTING or BOLDING just as written... and you let us know. ROMANS 9:5


New International Version
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

New Living Translation
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.

English Standard Version
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Berean Standard Bible
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.

Berean Literal Bible
whose are the patriarchs; and from whom is Christ according to the flesh, being God over all, blessed to the ages. Amen.

King James Bible
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

New King James Version
of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

New American Standard Bible
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

NASB 1995
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

NASB 1977
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Legacy Standard Bible
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Amplified Bible
To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to His natural descent, came the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), He who is exalted and supreme over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Christian Standard Bible
The ancestors are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, praised forever. Amen.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The ancestors are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah, who is God over all, praised forever. Amen.

American Standard Version
whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Contemporary English Version
They have those famous ancestors, who were also the ancestors of the Christ. I pray that God, who rules over all, will be praised forever! Amen.

English Revised Version
whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The Messiah is descended from their ancestors according to his human nature. The Messiah is God over everything, forever blessed. Amen.

Good News Translation
they are descended from the famous Hebrew ancestors; and Christ, as a human being, belongs to their race. May God, who rules over all, be praised forever! Amen.

International Standard Version
To the Israelis belong the patriarchs, and from them, the Messiah descended, who is God over all, the one who is forever blessed. Amen.

NET Bible
To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

New Heart English Bible
of whom are the patriarchs, and from whom is the Christ, as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God, blessed forever. Amen.

Webster's Bible Translation
Whose are the fathers, and from whom according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Weymouth New Testament
To them the Patriarchs belong, and from them in respect of His human lineage came the Christ, who is exalted above all, God blessed throughout the Ages. Amen.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.

World English Bible
of whom are the fathers, and from whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God, blessed forever. Amen.
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh, who is God over all, blessed for all ages. Amen.

Berean Literal Bible
whose are the patriarchs; and from whom is Christ according to the flesh, being God over all, blessed to the ages. Amen.

Young's Literal Translation
whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.

Smith's Literal Translation
Whose the fathers, and from whom Christ according to the flesh, who being God over all, praised forever. Amen.
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
Whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Catholic Public Domain Version
Theirs are the fathers, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is over all things, blessed God, for all eternity. Amen.

New American Bible
theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.

New Revised Standard Version
to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
Whose are the fathers, from among whom Christ appeared in the flesh, who is God over all, to whom are due praises and thanksgiving, for ever and ever. Amen.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And the Patriarchs; and from them The Messiah appeared in the flesh, who is The God Who is over all, to Whom are praises and blessings to the eternity of eternities, amen.
NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
to whom belong the fathers, and of whom is the Christ, as it respects the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Godbey New Testament
of whom are the fathers, and of whom is Christ according to the flesh. Who is over all, God blessed forever: amen.

Haweis New Testament
of whom are the fathers, and from whom as respecting the flesh Christ sprung, who is over all, the blessed God for evermore. Amen.

Mace New Testament
who are the offspring of the patriarchs, and of whom as to the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Weymouth New Testament
To them the Patriarchs belong, and from them in respect of His human lineage came the Christ, who is exalted above all, God blessed throughout the Ages. Amen.

Worrell New Testament
whose are the fathers; and of whom, according to flesh, is the Christ, Who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Worsley New Testament
whose are the fathers, and of whom, as to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all God blessed for ever. Amen.

BTW... YOU NEVER ANSWERED MY EARLIER POST..... Why?

Guess you will ignore this one also.....!

I hope I do not spoil the discussion. The mention of the relationship of Jesus to the Jews including "according to the flesh" can be differentiated from a simpler wording, if such were the message, that Jesus also is a Jew. Instead, "according to the flesh" acts in contrast to Jesus having pre-existence as God. There are two aspects of Jesus, namely the humanity and deity. This deity is reasonably affirmed by showing Jesus as God. The idea parallels Rom 1:3-4.

 

[amazing grace]

I hope I do not spoil the discussion. The mention of the relationship of Jesus to the Jews including "according to the flesh" can be differentiated from a simpler wording, if such were the message, that Jesus also is a Jew. Instead, "according to the flesh" acts in contrast to Jesus having pre-existence as God. There are two aspects of Jesus, namely the humanity and deity. This deity is reasonably affirmed by showing Jesus as God. The idea parallels Rom 1:3-4.

Is Romans 9:3 'according to the flesh' also act in contrast to Paul having prexisted as God?
For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
As with Paul 'my kinsmen according to the flesh' means that his ancestry were Israelites, i.e. Jewish ---- Jesus belonged to the descendants of the patriarchs 'according to the flesh'. GOD is NOT the Messiah nor is the Messiah God - Translators were responsible for chapter breaks, scripture breaks and punctuation.

But the one verse that is questionable is Romans 9:5. Remember, there was little to no punctuation in the original manuscripts, so where we put the comma or period is an interpretive position. Word for word, it says,

“The Christ the according to flesh the being over all God praised forever.”​

ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας​

If you put a full stop after σάρκα (“flesh”), then ὁ begins a new sentence. “Israelites ... to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen” (RSV). Interestingly, the RSV translation team changed the punctuation in their revision. “Israelites ... to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen” (NRSV)........... I would not pin my doctrine of the divinity of Christ on this verse, but it most likely does affirm that fact. [https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/is-jesus-god-rom-95-mondays-with-mounce]

The Jews were Paul’s kinsmen “according to the flesh,” as opposed to his Christian brothers in the spirit.a Likewise, Christ came “from” (ek) the patriarchs according to the flesh—that is, as a direct human descendant through his mother Mary - Paul here is focusing on Christ’s physical line from Abraham, given to him by his mother, rather than his fathering by God.
This last phrase in Romans 9:5 can grammatically be, and has been, translated in two primary ways:
“......Christ. God who is over all be blessed forever.” Or “.......Christ, who is God over all be blessed forever.”

Again and as usual another ambiguous scripture used to claim the deity of Christ. What the verse actually says is dependent on the theological belief of the reader.

 

[mikesw]

Is Romans 9:3 'according to the flesh' also act in contrast to Paul having prexisted as God?
For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
As with Paul 'my kinsmen according to the flesh' means that his ancestry were Israelites, i.e. Jewish ---- Jesus belonged to the descendants of the patriarchs 'according to the flesh'. GOD is NOT the Messiah nor is the Messiah God

I understand how scripture is exceedingly difficult for you to follow. The observant ones can see that vv 9:1-4 have not focused on Jesus yet. Too bad that the ideas merge into oblivion as your read them. You have to take up your denial of the deity of Christ with Paul, not me.

- Translators were responsible for chapter breaks, scripture breaks and punctuation.

So what. That is not enough to hinder people from recognizing the deity of Christ here.

But the one verse that is questionable is Romans 9:5. Remember, there was little to no punctuation in the original manuscripts, so where we put the comma or period is an interpretive position. Word for word, it says,

“The Christ the according to flesh the being over all God praised forever.”​

ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας​

If you put a full stop after σάρκα (“flesh”), then ὁ begins a new sentence. “Israelites ... to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen” (RSV). Interestingly, the RSV translation team changed the punctuation in their revision. “Israelites ... to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen” (NRSV)........... I would not pin my doctrine of the divinity of Christ on this verse, but it most likely does affirm that fact. [https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/is-jesus-god-rom-95-mondays-with-mounce]

Thanks for showing that the descent finding here is of the deity of Christ. It obviously is in a mixture of words that can be confusing. Again though, the mention of Jesus being Jewish according to his flesh only needs to be stated because Paul contrasts this with his being deity. There is hardly reason to just add praise to God for the Jews being in a bad situation. I hope that is not your take.

The Jews were Paul’s kinsmen “according to the flesh,” as opposed to his Christian brothers in the spirit.a Likewise, Christ came “from” (ek) the patriarchs according to the flesh—that is, as a direct human descendant through his mother Mary - Paul here is focusing on Christ’s physical line from Abraham, given to him by his mother, rather than his fathering by God.
This last phrase in Romans 9:5 can grammatically be, and has been, translated in two primary ways:
“......Christ. God who is over all be blessed forever.” Or “.......Christ, who is God over all be blessed forever.”

That would be stupid of Paul to be speaking of the Christians in special light when in fact the chapter is to create appreciation of Jews by the audience. So you fail in two ways to make a logical alternative to the mention of Jesus's fleshly connection.

Again and as usual another ambiguous scripture used to claim the deity of Christ. What the verse actually says is dependent on the theological belief of the reader.

I trust Paul's belief more than yours. Still, the difficulty of the passage for you is not quite unique to you.