Peterlag
Active Member
He would be the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ to the Christian who sits at the right hand of God as second in command and is the head of the Church that is called the body of Christ.
Thomas... My Lord and my God
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
FreeInChrist
Active Member
of ^($^*& )(* )&%_^
Peter , you bneed to go back to school until you graduate the 5th grade at minimum.
You, one again call God a liar..... How are YOU going to explain this when you stand in front of Him?
As you deny every translation that we post from that has the truth.... try one that God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit would have known well.
Orthodox Jewish Bible
Shemot 3:13-15
13And Moshe said unto HaElohim, Hinei, when I come unto the Bnei Yisroel, and shall say unto them, Elohei Avoteichem hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is Shmo? what shall I say unto them?14And Elohim said unto Moshe, Eh-heh-yeh ashair Ehheh- yeh (I AM WHO I AM); and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the Bnei Yisroel, EHHEH-YEH (I AM) hath sent me unto you.
15And Elohim said moreover unto Moshe, Thus shalt thou say unto Bnei Yisroel: Hashem, Elohei Avoteichem, Elohei Avraham, Elohei Yitzchak, and Elohei Ya’akov, hath sent me unto you: this is Shemi l’olam, and this is My remembrance unto all generations.
And since You and your counterparts may not be able to follow this... here is the KJV translation
13And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
OT Translations vs 14-15
JPS Tanakh 1917
And God said unto Moses: 'I AM THAT I AM'; and He said: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.'
JPS Tanakh 1917
And God said moreover unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name for ever, and this is My memorial unto all generations.
NO Westcott Hort influence...... in the Jewish and OT translations, nor KJV as it was before Westcott Hort could do any damage.
Also no Catholic influence in any of these either.....
But I can list at minimum 3 dozen that say the God said to tell the people His name is I AM and it would be his name forever.
So liar, liar pants on fire... you better retract what you say that is not the truth
Peterlag
Active Member
Jesus said "ego eimi" .... God didn't. The Greek word in Exodus 3:14 is not the same word Jesus used in John 8:58. Jesus said “ego eimi” in John 8:58. Not “ego eimi ho eimi” which means "I am the One who is" as Exodus 3:14 is written in the Septuagint. The two statements are very different. The Greek phrase in John does mean "I am" which was a common phrase in the New Testament and isn't the name of anyone.
cc: @amazing grace
FreeInChrist
Active Member
So close, but no cigar
Your claim is partially correct but oversimplified and misses key nuances in the Greek text and theological context.
The Greek Texts
Exodus 3:14 in the Septuagint (LXX, the Greek Old Testament used by early Christians):God says: ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν (egō eimi ho ōn), typically translated as "I am the One who is" or "I am the Being/Existent One."Then God instructs Moses: "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel: ὁ ὤν (ho ōn, 'the One who is') has sent me to you."The full phrase includes "ho ōn" as the key descriptor of God's eternal being; "egō eimi" is present but qualified.
Is "Egō Eimi" Just a Common Phrase?
Yes, "egō eimi" literally means "I am" and is ordinary Greek for self-identification (e.g., "I am the one" or simply "It's me").Examples in the New Testament:The healed blind man says "egō eimi" ("I am [he]") in John 9:9—no divine claim.
People use it routinely elsewhere (e.g., Mark 13:6, Luke 21:8 for false christs saying "I am [he]").
So the claim is right: It's a common expression and not inherently "the name of anyone."
Why the Jews Reacted So Strongly in John 8:58-59 (Picking Up Stones to Kill Jesus)
The reaction suggests more than a mundane "I am." Scholars across viewpoints note:The context is Jesus claiming existence "before Abraham" (eternal pre-existence) with the present tense "I am" (egō eimi), creating a stark contrast to Abraham's temporary "coming to be" (genesthai, aorist). This implies timeless, divine existence.
Many scholars (both Trinitarian and non-) see an allusion to God's self-revelation in the Old Testament, especially Isaiah's repeated "egō eimi" for YHWH (e.g., Isa 43:10 LXX: "that you may know and believe that egō eimi [I am He]"; Isa 41:4, 46:4, etc.). These are divine self-declarations.
While not a direct quote of Exodus 3:14's "ho ōn," the absolute "egō eimi" in this context echoes divine language familiar to 1st-century Jews from the LXX. The Jews' attempt to stone Jesus indicates they heard it as blasphemy , a claim to share in God's unique identity or eternal being.
So we have the ...Trinitarian/evangelical view (e.g., from sources like Bible.org): Jesus' "egō eimi" is a deliberate echo of divine "I am" statements, claiming deity (though stronger links are to Isaiah than direct Exodus quote).
Non-Trinitarian view (e.g., unitarian or JW sources): The difference in wording (no "ho ōn") means no direct claim to be YHWH; it's just pre-existence or identification. (DO not discount the pre-existence view)
Academic consensus (e.g., hermeneutics discussions): Not an exact match to Exodus 3:14, but the context makes it a profound self-assertion of divine-like eternity, provoking the reaction.
The statements are different in exact wording, and "egō eimi" alone is common—but in John 8:58, the context elevates it beyond ordinary speech, which is why it's debated as a divinity claim. The two are related but not "very different" in the way the claim suggests.
Doug Brents
Active Member
The more proper translation of the first half of Exo 3:14 is, "I am because I am." It is not a modifier to "I am" to say that "I exist because I exist." That is reemphasizing the lack of modifier.
But again, your focus is on the first half of the verse. In the second half of the verse, where He uses "I AM" as His name there is NO modifier of any kind.
Jesus was not just in the foreknowledge and mind of God. Jesus was the person of God through whom all of creation was created (John 1:3). Jesus was fully present with the Father (hence their comments in Gen 1 about "us" and "our" when talking to themselves.
Again, Jesus in the flesh was foreknown and planned, but the spirit of Jesus that is God was fully present and active before the creation, for it was through Him that all things were created.
Jesus is the Creator (John 1:3, 14). The Father created all things through Jesus. If you don't worship Jesus as the Creator, then you are not worshiping Him correctly. There are only three classes of being mentioned in Scripture: 1. God, 2. angels (devils, demons, and other spiritual beings), and 3. mankind. Jesus started above the angels (as God). Then He was made lower than the angels (as a man). And now He has risen back to His former Glory (back to being God). He never stopped being God, but He did empty Himself of His glory, honor, and the independent use of His power.
Your opinion is noted, but since it disagrees with Scripture I will accept what Scripture says rather than trusting in your opinion.
Doug Brents
Active Member
That is not correct, as has been shown in previous posts.
Peterlag
Active Member
If it's not correct. Then how come I keep saying it is?
Doug Brents
Active Member
Because you are absolutely, positively, certain about it. And when you are absolutely, positively, certain about something, it only means you are wrong at the top of your voice.
Peterlag
Active Member
Is "FreeInChrist" wrong to? He writes it this way...
The Greek Texts
Exodus 3:14 in the Septuagint (LXX, the Greek Old Testament used by early Christians): God says: ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν (egō eimi ho ōn), typically translated as "I am the One who is" or "I am the Being/Existent One."Then God instructs Moses: "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel: ὁ ὤν (ho ōn, 'the One who is') has sent me to you."The full phrase includes "ho ōn" as the key descriptor of God's eternal being; "egō eimi" is present but qualified.Yes, "egō eimi" literally means "I am" and is ordinary Greek for self-identification (e.g., "I am the one" or simply "It's me").Examples in the New Testament:
The healed blind man says "egō eimi" ("I am [he]") in John 9:9—no divine claim.
People use it routinely elsewhere (e.g., Mark 13:6, Luke 21:8 for false christs saying "I am [he]").
So the claim is right: It's a common expression and not inherently "the name of anyone."
amazing grace
Active Member
I deny Jesus being God. I deny Jesus being omnipresent UNTIL after his death and resurrection wherein he was raised a spiritual body and then YES, spiritually Jesus is in every believer. If Jesus was inherently omnipresent, he would have been with Mary and Martha when Lazarus died. GOD IS GREATER - GOD IS OVER ALL - GOD IS ALMIGHTY.
I have a habit of sticking with what the scripture says . . . . John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.......'God' is in the predicate nominative sense and without a definite article before God in 1:1c, therefore being used in a qualitative state.......'Word' would be equivalent with 'God' IF God was in the vocative sense.
ONLY GOD INHERENTLY POSSESSES OMNISCIENCE, OMNIPRESENCE, OMNIPOTENCE.
GOD IS GREATER - GOD IS OVER ALL - GOD IS ALMIGHTY.
If God GRANTED the Son to have LIFE IN HIMSELF and in the context is speaking of ETERNAL LIFE then John 1:4 has nothing to do with John 1:4. The life giving authority will give life in the resurrection when those who believe hear his voice and come out of their graves. Yes, the man Christ Jesus is the mediator between God and man.
To be self existent is existing of or by oneself or itself independently of any other being or cause: not caused to exist by someone of something else. Jesus wouldn't exist without God his Father. God CAUSED Mary to conceive.
Jesus was omnipresent only after his resurrection and can now spiritually live in each believe.
The characteristics I said that Jesus had: Qualitative - fully expressive of God - Jesus embodied God's qualities and characteristics, love, gentleness, kindness, goodness, etc. However, God does delegate authority and power to humans.
IF Jesus is God and God is 'indivisible' ----- you cannot separate his deity from his humanity. He is either one of the other.
As for 1 Corinthians 15:45 the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit . . . . I don't believe that Christ became 'divine, deity' at that point either. . . . He was never deity.
Scripture teaches that God sent his only begotten Son by way of a virgin named Mary. God caused Mary to conceive by His power, through His Spirit. Jesus was full of grace and truth. Jesus grew in wisdom and stature - Jesus always did the will of God his Father. Jesus learned obedience through his suffering and was obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Jesus was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights. God raised him from the dead and highly exalted him to His own right hand. He must reign until God has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. When God has put all things in subjection under his feet, it is plain that God himself is not in subjection. When the end comes he will deliver the kingdom to God the Father, and the Son himself will be subjected to God who put all things in subjection under him . . . . that God may be all in all........ And that's scriptural truth.
Anyway, thanks for the commentary whatever your source was.......
synergy
Active Member
You didn't quote his entire Post. That proves that your mind receives only a portion of reality, only the portion that aligns with your misguided presuppositions.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Yes, He is. It doesn't matter how He writes it. When a claim arrived at through "logic" contradicts a clear and explicit statement in Scripture (like John 1:1, 3, 14 - The Logos is God, the Logos created all things, the Logos (God) became a man named Jesus), that claim MUST be rejected in favor of the clear statement in Scripture, regardless of the logic used to arrive at the claim.
Peterlag
Active Member
Two different subjects in that post that you say I did not post both subjects. The subject I was talking about was Jesus said "ego eimi" .... God didn't.
And that's the subject I quoted. Unlike others I converse about one subject at a time. I don't list 40 different verses with 40 different viewpoints throwing it all on the wall and hoping something will stick.
So it does not prove I'm misguided. It means I'm smart.
synergy
Active Member
Omnipresence is an attribute that only God possesses. Thanks for admitting that Jesus is omnipresent (at least now) which proves he is God.
Phil 2:6-8 will answer your question. Jesus willingly accepted the limitations of a human life, living and acting within human constraints (Phil. 2:6–8). Jesus’ physical absence from Mary and Martha at Lazarus’s death was not evidence of a lack of omnipresence, but a deliberate self-emptying in which He refrained from the constant, visible exercise of His divine prerogatives. Paul says that Christ Jesus “being in the form of God", did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but “emptied Himself” by “taking the form of a servant”, being made in human likeness, and humbling Himself in obedience unto death. “Form of God” denotes the full possession of divine status and attributes, while “emptied Himself” does not mean divesting Himself of omnipresence or deity, but voluntarily refraining from his divine attributes and perogatives. Thus, Jesus’ physical absence from Mary and Martha at Lazarus’s death reflects his human mode of existence, not a lack of inherent omnipresence according to His divine nature. The subsequent events confirm this, since He knows Lazarus is dead and sovereignly raises him, showing that kenosis is self-humbling in role and expression, not the loss of what He is.
Amen! That's what we Trinitarians believe.
Yes, Jesus is God in the qualitative state in that he shares the same qualities as the Father such as omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence. Thanks for that support.
What you propose would actually prove Modalism. If the clause καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος was vocative then the Word would simply be identical with the Father and that is Modalism. You're barking up the wrong tree. John is making a qualitative assertion about what the Word is, namely that the Word possesses the very essence of God while remaining personally distinct from ὁ θεός.
Amen! That's what we Trinitarians believe.
John 1:4 and John 5:26 are both speaking about the same life—the divine life that gives eternal life to believers—and not two unrelated or competing concepts. John 1:4 states ontologically that “in Him was life,” identifying the Word as the intrinsic source of the life that enlightens and saves humanity, while John 5:26 explains how that same life is mediated to believers by Jesus, as the Father “grants” the Son to have life in Himself within Jesus' mediator mission. To claim that John 1:4 “has nothing to do” with John 5:26 is to tear apart John’s unified Christology, which consistently presents the Son as eternally possessing life and, precisely because of that, having authority to give eternal life on those who hear His voice and believe.
The Holy Spirit caused Mary to conceive. Thanks for proving that the Holy Spirit is God also. Keep those Trinitarian truths coming!
Yes, Jesus is God in the qualitative state in that he shares the same qualities as the Father such as omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence. Thanks again for that support.
Where is it stated in the Bible that "He is either one or the other"?
Excellent Trinitarian truths that nowhere denies - and many actually presuppose - the Word’s Eternal Deity. To treat those incarnational and mediatorial realities you mentioned as proof of ontological inferiority is a category mistake. The Son’s obedience, exaltation, and future subjection in 1 Corinthians 15 describe His messianic role as the incarnate Mediator, not His eternal relation within the Godhead. The same Scriptures that speak of His submission also declare that He is the preexistent Word through whom all things were made, the one in whom all the fullness of deity dwells bodily, and the Lord who receives worship. What is unbiblical is not your list, but the implication that these truths deny who the Word, who was God, is presently God. Afterall, God can never cease being God.
Keep quoting Bible verses and you will eventually see the full Light of who Jesus truly is.
amazing grace
Active Member
I have said all I can say on this subject. Read it as you will.
All creation was created by God who created through his word - his spoken word as shown in the beginning Genesis 1.
Jesus was NOT present with the Father - 'us' 'we' God is communicating with his heavenly court, i.e. his created angels.
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.........when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" [Job 38:4,7] The angels were there in the beginning with God.
I can't understand why you guys want to have God talking to himself - the two others in him??? - isn't that having a split personality? or at the least schizophrenic?
Jesus was not 'spirit' until he was raised from the dead and he became a life-giving spirit. It is not the spiritual that is first but the natural. (1 Cor. 15:46)
If I worship Jesus as the Creator and it turns out he actually is a created human being like his brothers and sisters as scripture says then I am in trouble!
Romans 1:19-22 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Totally NOT scriptural.
Read it as you will -
civic
Active Member
Strawman since we know Jesus was worshipped by His followers and disciples/Apostles and all in heaven now.
You are in serious trouble if you don't worship Him
hope this helps !!!
Doug Brents
Active Member
Sure the angels were there. But they were not a "heavenly court". The angels were not made in the image of God; that distinction applies ONLY to humans. The angels are not advisers to God.
"God" is a title. It is not a name. The fact that there are three persons who make us ONE God does not make God schizophrenic or any other human malfunction.
Jesus came down from Heaven before He was incarnate (John 3:13, 6:38). He was Spirit before He took on flesh, still had His own Spirit while He was in the flesh, and returned to Spirit when He ascended back into Heaven.
Great verse, but it has no bearing on this discussion, because Jesus is God, the same as the Father and the Holy Spirit. Just because He was a man for a short time (33 years) doesn't mean that He ceased to be God.
Humans' spirits are created at the same time that our bodies are formed (when egg and sperm join). But Jesus' Spirit was not created when His body was made. His Spirit came down from Heaven to inhabit the body that the Holy Spirit made for Him in Mary's womb.
civic
Active Member
God is not talking to Himself since God is not a single, solitary person. We are not oneness/modalists.
Are you talking to yourself or your wife when to talk to her ?
amazing grace
Active Member
No, actually it doesn't. He had to die and be raised in his spiritual body - God is inherently omnipresent. I have given my point of view on this and it's time to move on ----- we're "beating a dead horse"; wasting time on any further repetition.
Philippians 2 . . . is all about attitude - having an attitude of humility - Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
God is not a man ----- God is not a human being. Hebrew 'îš 1. man; man, male; husband; human being, person (in contrast to God); servant; mankind; champion; great man; 2. whosoever; 3. each (adjective)
Being 'in the form of God' is NOT BEING GOD just as being 'in the image of God' is NOT BEING GOD.
If Jesus NEVER CEASES TO BE GOD he would retain his divine nature and thus should have been able to be present at Lazarus's death . . . . John 5:21,26 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. Again, read it as you will.
Sadly, you take away from God's inherent superiority to include Jesus, his Son, the Messiah.
Some things are INHERENT - some things are GIVEN.
Who is the first 'God' in John 1? Isn't it God the Father? the word was with God the Father.....
So when you purpose that the word was actually God (1:1c) the word was God the Father.......
and God became flesh 1:14 - aren't you the one proposing Modalism? In fact you all are!
Now be sure to equivocate on who the second God is in John 1.
Sadly, you take away from God's inherent superiority to include Jesus, his Son, the Messiah compressing the two into one.
No - John 1:4 the word 'life' is in the context to what was created by the word - the subject of John's prologue.
John 5:26 is in the context of resurrection to either life or judgment.
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.......Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Read it as you will.
Oh, I always knew God was the Holy Spirit (Acts 5).......the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit, i.e. the Spirit of God and God's power through his Spirit caused Mary to conceive........the Holy Spirit being the power of the Most High. But that doesn't mean God is Trinity!
And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
I have given my point of view on this and it's time to move on ----- we're "beating a dead horse"; wasting time on any further repetition.
It doesn't nor does the Bible state that God is Triune, 3-in-one, nor that Jesus is a god-man, 100%God/100%man and really doesn't address the 'dual nature' thingy.
The Bible is basically the story of two men - one who brought death through sin by being disobedient and another man who brought life through obedience. One screwed things up, one gave his life to pay what was owed to God.
So, the question is this: Was this Jesus of Nazareth actually a man?
Would it be fair to compare Jesus with Adam if Jesus was God?
Would it be fair to compare humanity at all with Jesus if Jesus was God?
Why would scripture call Jesus our brother if he is actually God our Father?
Why would Jesus have a God if he is God?
Now to answer all this the Trinitarians have a way out by saying "that was his human side" or "that was his divine side, i.e. his deity" - the signs, miracles, and wonders - 'no one else could do that except God' . . . BUT scripture says His Father is greater than all, Jesus said he could do nothing on his own - oh, that's not what that really means 'that was in his humanity'.
If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God that he has borne concerning his Son. Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son.
What is the testimony God gave concerning his Son? What is written?
Read it as you will.
amazing grace
Active Member
Yell strawman from the rooftops which you, yourself just did because you just intentionally misrepresented me----I didn't say I didn't worship him. I SAID:
If I worship Jesus as the Creator and it turns out he actually is a created human being like his brothers and sisters as scripture says then I am in trouble!
Jesus was not worshiped as the Creator . . . . he was worshiped as the Son of God, the Messiah, the King of the Jews but never as God the Creator.
