Peterlag
Active Member
I could not have written it better myself.
Thomas... My Lord and my God
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
Hardly. When we speak of his deity and post verses such as
Col 1:15–17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
John 1:1–3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Micah 5:2“ But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.”
Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
He was?
He no longer is the son?
The lord's Christ?
Lord of lords
It took a while before they all fully learned who Christ is
John 20:27–29 (NASB 95) — 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
John 1:1 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Are these things said about Jesus just a coincidence ? Can they be said of a mere man ?
The Father is God
The Son is God
God is our Savior
Jesus is our Savior
God is our Lord
Jesus is our Lord
Man is to honor God
Man is to honor Jesus
Man is to praise God
Man is to praise Jesus
Man is to glorify God
Man is to glorify Jesus
Man is to worship God
Man is to worship Jesus
Man is to fear God
Man is to fear Jesus
Man will be judged by God
Man will be judged by Jesus
Man is to sing songs of worship to God
Man is to sing songs of worship to Jesus
Man is to serve God
Man is to serve Jesus
Man has life in God
Man has life in Jesus
Man is to love God
Man is to love Jesus
Man is to obey God
Man is to obey Jesus
Man is to pray to God
Man is to pray to Jesus
God answers man's prayers
Jesus answers man's prayers
Angels worship God
Angels worship Jesus
God created the heavens and the earth
Jesus created the heaven and the earth
Clearly not
Um, if the article “The” appeared, then the Word and the God would be the same person, and that would not be trinitarianism.
BTW Trinitarianism does not teach he stopped being God
Also BTW how is it a mere man preexisted all things and nothing came into existence apart from him?
John 1:1–4 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
What does it take to get the naysayers to either actually
1. read scripture
2. acknowledge what scripture syas
or
3. have what it takes to ask what specific scriptures say because they want to know the truth?
civic
Active Member
truth is not what many seek, defending their beliefs at all costs it top priority and they are not interested to find out if they might be wrong. Also there is spiritual blindness involved as well as per several scriptures.
amazing grace
Active Member
I was just saying . . . . not accusing anything.
THE HUMAN SIDE?
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ, in his humanity, the human side, died for the ungodly.......but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ, in his humanity, the human side, died for us. [Rom. 5:6,8]
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus, in his humanity, the human side, is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Romans [8:34], etc. etc. (added emphasis mine)
That is NOT what scripture teaches. Jesus is not distinguished with two different sides, a human side and a divine side. If as the Trinity claims God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit ----- each fully God ----- then Jesus is fully God.
But I'm sure you'll find a way around that also!!!
I am not promoting Modalism ---- since a definite article does not precede GOD as THE GOD, then 'God' is used in an adjectival sense describing the word as being like God, or the full expression of God but it is not the NAME of the Word.
Again----since a definite article does not precede GOD as THE GOD, thus making 'God' a predicate nominative and therefore, used in an adjectival sense describing the word as being like God, or the full expression of God but it is not the NAME of the Word......NOT GOD BUT QUALITATIVELY LIKE GOD. It is not an attempt to reduce God (theos) to a descriptive adjective.
John 1:3 Does not say the WORD was the CREATOR...... It says all things were made through him (the word) and without him (the word) was not any thing made that was made. (parenthesis added for emphasis) . . . Ever read Genesis - where God created in the beginning with HIS WORD, WHAT HE SPOKE?
Since God can never cease to be God and since the word fully reflected, fully expressed who God was then Jesus who became flesh and dwelt among us as the only begotten from the Father,--- it's the Son who fully reflects, fully expresses, makes known the one whom no one has ever seen, the Father who is the only true God.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
So you actually are saying that God the Father is not telling the truth?
UNBELIEVABLE.
God the Father... Elohim from creation to Jesus the messiahs dad???????????/
That takes my breath away.
You deny that God has this power alone....
In Isaiah 43:11, it states, "I, even I, am the LORD; and besides me there is no savior," emphasizing that God alone is the source of salvation.
OR
Isaiah 43:3
"For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior."Hosea 13:4
"Yet I am the LORD your God ever since the land of Egypt; you know no God but Me, for there is no Savior besides Me."These verses emphasize that God alone claims the authority and ability to save, reinforcing the belief in His unique role as the Savior
THERE IS NOWHERE THAT YOU HAVE EVER READ THAT SAYS GOD PASSED THE BUCK TO SOMEONE ELSE.
IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN GOD TO SAVE. PERIOD
IT IS BAD ENOUGHT TTHAT YOU DENY PART OF GOD AS BEING... WHERE THEOUGHOUT THE NT WE HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT
GOD SAVES...... NO ONE ELSE.....
BUT TO ACTUALLY SAY GOD WAS NOT THE ONLY ONE....? Sheeesh
You say "
I have never said that Jesus was a 'MERE' man . . . you guys do that.
My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was way more than a MERE man! He was the Son of God, the Lord's Christ. He was Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst......"
We know who he is.... and what he could do.... based on scripture and what His Father said..... His Father that called Him God.
You always ignore this or make an excuse.
IF HE WAS?IS not GOD this statement of yours is wrong..... My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ because the Hevenly Father declared
""I, even I, am the LORD; and besides me there is no savior," emphasizing that God alone is the source of salvation.
And that means Jesus has to be God or he is NOT YOUR SAVIOR>
civic
Active Member
they make all those passages a lie if Jesus is not God.
Its as simple as that and the way they try and wiggle away from the plain meaning of the text it nothing but a dog and pony show with scripture filled with nothing but EISEGESIS.
When God says alone, only its meaningless. When God says there is none besides Him its meaningless.
amazing grace
Active Member
WHAT? If the article 'THE' appeared then it would read: 'and the Word was THE GOD' and the word and the God would be the same person .... so true!!! AND that is what Trinitarians would have us believe so it would be Trinitarianism.
OH, I know!!! Because it was Jesus' human side that shed blood, that died ----- yet Jesus never stopped being God. Yeah
Jesus did not literally preexist all things. He existed in the foreknowledge, in the mind of God.
knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. [1 Peter 1:18-21]
Jesus had a beginning, a time when he began to exist --- he did not literally exist before then. We will be celebrating his birthday soon!!!
In the beginning God spoke things into being....all things came into being through God's spoken word and apart from God speaking nothing came into being that has come into being ----
civic
Active Member
Original Word: προγινώσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proginóskó
Way to butcher 1 Peter 1:20 which the Greek word actually means in the "context " namely, ὑπό τοῦ Θεοῦ (foreknown by God, although not yet 'made manifest' to men), the sacrifice which is the "context " was future and planned beforehand by God. The term situates the atonement in eternity past; Calvary was no afterthought but the centerpiece of God’s predetermined plan.
Conclusion: the above post of mine reveals the biblical meaning "exegesis " of the passage whereas you have demonstrated your bias which is eisegesis.
hope this helps !!!
Doug Brents
Active Member
Of course they didn't. God didn't reveal Himself as having three forms/manifestations/persons/or however you want to see them. But that doesn't mean that they didn't exist at that time. It just means that God had not revealed Himself to them in that way yet. But He has to us, and we must adjust our understanding to account for the new information He has given us. You cannot keep your head in the sand and pretend that you are still as ignorant as Abraham was of the nature of who God is (No offense intended to Abraham. He knew God in a much more personal way than we do today, but he only saw God as He was revealed at that time, so he was ignorant of God's triune nature as we can see it today).
amazing grace
Active Member
And on the total opposite side of the fence you are saying that God cannot share one of his attributes, one of his titles with who HE chooses to designate as a savior to deliver his people.
Does the fact that God designates someone to act as a savior/deliver mean that it is not God that is doing the saving?
It it not God working behind the one he chose and sent to actually achieve the salvation making him the actual Savior?
I wouldn't call that passing the buck to anyone -
NO you do not know who he is nor what he could do because you always equate him to Almighty God.
I can't seem to find the context in which I said the above . . . .
YES, YES, God is the SOURCE of salvation . . . God worked in and through each savior/deliverer he designated to save/deliver his people just as God worked in and through Jesus Christ HIS SON to accomplish all that HE sent him to do ---- avoid temptation, grow in wisdom, learn obedience from suffering, to die a humiliating death on the cross raising him from the dead and highly exalting him to his own right hand-----They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.” [John 4:42]
civic
Active Member
No God declares He will not share His glory with anyone nor being Savior and Lord.
You make God out to be lying in many passages where He says the above.
Where does God ever say there is an " exception" clause ?
Bible Truth 101.
civic
Active Member
YHWH declares He alone is the Savior and Lord. So you both are wrong and are making Gods declaration about Him out to be untrue, false. God says He will not share His glory with anyone or anything, He alone is the Savior, He alone is Lord and there are none besides Him.
conclusion: Either Jesus is God or God is a liar. Which is it ?
next fallacy.
amazing grace
Active Member
Yes, God knew beforehand which is what foreknowledge means which also means foreknown . . . God knew beforehand the plan he had to ransom mankind, his foreknown plan of salvation being the SOURCE of said salvation and God knew beforehand WHO would be the one to ransom mankind.
How were we ransomed?
'not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot'.
Who was foreknown?
'He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you' ----- God knew beforehand that Christ would be the one who would shed his precious blood like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
Through whom are we now believers in God?
'who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.'
Who do the personal pronouns indicate? I believe they indicate Jesus Christ as being foreknown to be our Savior by remaining without blemish or spot - he shed his blood so that through him we are believers in God who raised Jesus from the dead and gave Jesus glory.
synergy
Active Member
Scripture makes it equally clear that the one who died is not merely human, because that same Jesus now possesses and exercises divine attributes that no creature can share. After His death and resurrection, Jesus declares, “Wherever two or three are gathered in My name, there am I among them” (Matt 18:20), a claim of omnipresence, since He is simultaneously present with all His people everywhere—a prerogative that belongs to God alone (Jer 23:23–24). No purely human can reign at God’s right hand and omnipresently hear Christian prayer everywhere. Thus Scripture forces the conclusion that Jesus’ death was the death of God incarnate - truly human so He could die, yet truly God, as proven by His omnipresent presence with His people after death and resurrection, without any contradiction or division of His person.
Again, putting an definite article before "God" would prove Modalism. I'm not a Modalist. Tell that to a Modalist. You're barking up the wrong tree and wasting your time.
"Through him" proves that he is not created. Only God is Uncreated. Thanks for assisting me in proving Jesus is God.
"The only true God" is a statement of Monotheism. We believe in Monotheism. Unitarianism would have a case if you found a statement anywhere that says that only the Father is the only true God. Where is that verse?
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Well.... most of them are young. Lets see if they think this way when they are old and face their own mortality.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Correct or He lied.
God came to earth and you deny this. He designated God the Son who falls into the category of dedignee as well as sacrifice.
You do not even understand the purpose God the Don came to earth....
So no... I dont see him appointing anyone other then in the core Godhead for such an important task. Not when there have been
such a miserable example of mortal men and their doings.
Only Jesus could withstand being tempted and not gripe about it.... Paul did so that takes him out of the running.
You have 2 others beside the Father Himself.... period.... and the fact that God said he was the only one.... would indicate it had to be God him/their selves and not a delegation
amazing grace
Active Member
I make God out to be lying in many passages where He says the above........
Does not scripture use the word yāšaʿ - (Hiphil) 1. to save, deliver; 2. to save from moral troubles; 3. to give victory to --- for the word SAVIOR --- the same Hebrew word used in Isaiah 43:11 ..... I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior (yāšaʿ).
It's also used here: Therefore you gave them into the hand of their enemies, who made them suffer. And in the time of their suffering they cried out to you and you heard them from heaven, and according to your great mercies you gave them saviors (yāšaʿ) who saved them from the hand of their enemies. [Nehemiah 9:27] Notice it was God who gave them saviors . . . God was the SOURCE.
The same word is used for others God sent out to save/deliver his people ----- I am not making God out to be lying - I am allowing God to have the prerogative to designate whomever He wants to accomplish whatever He needs done.
True, these are not saviors who can give eternal life but the final and last Savior chosen by God, Jesus Christ, he would give his life for the life of humanity - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. [Rom. 6:23]
FreeInChrist
Active Member
The only savior chosen by God is God the Son. That keeps all the Heavenly Fathers statements on the up and up as
only God can give eternal life.
This is why Jesus came to earth. for there was never another who could have done what He has for us.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Is true. But he had to be God or it would not have worked.
