It would show your disrespect even further as well as disregard of Jewish context. You'll say anything you feel like saying just to deny who Christ Jesus is.
Thomas... My Lord and my God
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@Peterlag
Enter now the enigma that may prove another false in the bible.
You say that God only is deity, and the verses I posted say He Himself says only he
can save.....
But enter into this mix of the thief on the cross.
God , the Father was not there for the thief to talk to.... the thief
only talked to the man Jesus.
And just look what this man said.
Luke 23:42–43
The thief does not pray to the Father and
No sacrifice is offered and
No intermediary is invoked and
Jesus does not ask God to save him However
Jesus issues a sovereign decree
That is authoritative salvation.
without works and
by Christ’s word alone
into God’s presence
This matches God’s exclusive saving role in Isaiah.
If only God saves
and Jesus saves
then Jesus must be God
“Scripture says only God saves (Isaiah 43:11).
Jesus saved the thief by His own authority (Luke 23:43).
Therefore Jesus does what only God does — because He is God.”
Enter now the enigma that may prove another false in the bible.... but only if you can argue away from the following.
You say that God only is deity, and the verses I posted say He Himself says only he
can save..... (refer to my post above)
But enter into this mix of the thief on the cross.
God , the Father was not there for the thief to talk to.... the thief
only talked to the man Jesus.
And just look what this man said.
Luke 23:42–43
...The thief does not pray to the Father and
...No sacrifice is offered and
...No intermediary is invoked and
...Jesus does not ask God to save him However
....Jesus issues a sovereign decree
That is authoritative salvation.
by Christ’s word alone into God’s presence
This matches God’s exclusive saving role in Isaiah.
If only God saves
and Jesus saves
then Jesus must be God
“Scripture says only God saves (Isaiah 43:11).
Jesus saved the thief by His own authority (Luke 23:43).
Therefore Jesus does what only God does — because He is God.”
There can be no other explanation.... period.
Enter now the enigma that may prove another false in the bible.
You say that God only is deity, and the verses I posted say He Himself says only he
can save.....
But enter into this mix of the thief on the cross.
God , the Father was not there for the thief to talk to.... the thief
only talked to the man Jesus.
And just look what this man said.
Luke 23:42–43
And more importantly...
The thief does not pray to the Father and
No sacrifice is offered and
No intermediary is invoked and
Jesus does not ask God to save him However
Jesus issues a sovereign decree
That is not intercession.
That is authoritative salvation.
Jesus did what only God claims the right to do
The thief is saved at deathwithout works and
by Christ’s word alone
into God’s presence
This matches God’s exclusive saving role in Isaiah.
If only God saves
and Jesus saves
then Jesus must be God
“Scripture says only God saves (Isaiah 43:11).
Jesus saved the thief by His own authority (Luke 23:43).
Therefore Jesus does what only God does — because He is God.”
@Peterlag
Enter now the enigma that may prove another false in the bible.... but only if you can argue away from the following.
You say that God only is deity, and the verses I posted say He Himself says only he
can save..... (refer to my post above)
But enter into this mix of the thief on the cross.
God , the Father was not there for the thief to talk to.... the thief
only talked to the man Jesus.
And just look what this man said.
Luke 23:42–43
And more importantly...
...The thief does not pray to the Father and
...No sacrifice is offered and
...No intermediary is invoked and
...Jesus does not ask God to save him However
....Jesus issues a sovereign decree
That is not intercession.
That is authoritative salvation.
Jesus did what only God claims the right to do
The thief is saved at death without works andby Christ’s word alone into God’s presence
This matches God’s exclusive saving role in Isaiah.
If only God saves
and Jesus saves
then Jesus must be God
“Scripture says only God saves (Isaiah 43:11).
Jesus saved the thief by His own authority (Luke 23:43).
Therefore Jesus does what only God does — because He is God.”
There can be no other explanation.... period.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Well if that tree told you to stick your finger in a hole it had you better.
synergy
Active Member
Yes. Unitarians' seething contempt for the Uncreated Word of God, Jesus, is truly unbelievable.
Read the context and Christ's response
John 20:26–29 (NASB 95) — 26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
amazing grace
Active Member
So true. The word carries the same meaning throughout scripture regardless of WHO is the savior/deliverer. God knows that the word savior is used of others besides himself - he chose them to save and deliver his people. In Isaiah 43:11 when he uses it here of himself, he is using it in the sense of the ultimate savior, which he is - there is no other savior in the category of God. God gave his only Son and sent him out to be the final Savior, the final deliverer who would rescue/deliver all of humanity. This final Savior sent to fulfill His Father's plan for salvation for all humanity - Jesus ----- whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood to offer forgiveness of sins, redemption and reconciliation unto Himself.
It is God's prerogative whom He will send out to accomplish His plans.
civic
Active Member
who but God alone can save one from sin , hell ?
can any man ?
see Psalm 49:7- No man can redeem the life of another, nor can he give to God a sufficient payment for him
next fallacy
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You better text that info to the Heavenly Father right away cause I do not think He is aware of it.
This is not a theological assumption — it is a repeated exclusive claim of Yahweh.
Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.”
Isaiah 45:
21 “Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.
Hosea 13:4 “You shall know no god but Me, For there is no savior besides Me.”
It is God only.... from His own mouth.
amazing grace
Active Member
Yes, Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested by God ----- the Son of God, the Lord's Messiah can and did.
I have read Psalm 49:7- and yes, it references --------- those who trust in their wealth and boast of the abundance of their riches for their wealth/riches will not ransom another or give to God the price of his life for the ransom of someone's life is costly and NO AMOUNT OF WEALTH/RICHES can suffice that he should live on forever.
Jesus didn't use wealth/riches to ransom or redeem anyone's life - he shed his blood - he gave his life for the life of many.
for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. [Matt. 26:28]
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. [Romans 3:22-25]
civic
Active Member
You are contradicting scripture since only God, not any man can save another person.
So your jesus being only a sinless man can only save himself not anyone else.
Next fallacy
amazing grace
Active Member
Where on earth did the scripture I posted contradict scripture??
A fallacy is a mistaken belief, especially one based on an unsound argument. I don't believe that what I have put forward is a mistaken belief nor based on unsound argument.
If Jesus said that he shed his blood for the forgiveness of many - then that is what is true.
If Paul through inspiration said that God put Jesus forward as a propitiation, an atonement BY HIS BLOOD - then that is what is true.
If the author of Hebrews through inspiration said that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins - then that is what is true.
And if Peter through inspiration said we were ransomed with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without spot or blemish - then that is what is true.
Here's how it works - here is the comparison of two men:
For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many......For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
Seems he was able to save MANY.
civic
Active Member
If Jesus is only a man then he is incapable of saving anyone from their sins. That’s the uni problem . But we trins have the solution since Jesus is not only man but God so He can in fact save all men.
He is More than a mere man
Col 1:15–17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
John 1:1–3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Micah 5:2“ But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.”
Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
amazing grace
Active Member
I just gave you solid evidence from scripture showing that it's the shedding of blood that forgives sin and that Jesus Christ shed his blood making atonement for humanity and YOU are saying he is incapable of saving anyone from their sins-----the total opposite of what scripture says. It's the reason God gave His Son-----to pay the penalty for sin that humanity owed to HIM . . .
It's not the uni's who have a problem.
You have a solution? You have to turn God into a man, a human being--------What God's plan isn't good enough for you?
For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many......For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.
Seems he was able to save MANY.
amazing grace
Active Member
Yeah, yeah, I've heard it all before.
I have never said that Jesus was a 'MERE' man . . . you guys do that.
My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was way more than a MERE man! He was the Son of God, the Lord's Christ. He was Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst......
Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”......You ever notice how no one thought the Son of Man was God?
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
civic
Active Member
If Moses was sinless who could he save ?
If David was sinless who could he save ?
You just don’t get it at all. No man can save anyone from sin.
synergy
Active Member
The Word, who was God (John 1:1c), tabernacled as Jesus on Earth (John 1:14). Since God can never cease to be God then Jesus is God.
amazing grace
Active Member
Both are ridiculous questions.
God did not send Moses to be the Savior of the world - Moses was chosen as the intermediary between God and the children of Israel and to deliver the children of Israel out of Egypt . . . but a God would raise up a prophet like Moses “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. --------That man would save. What God purposes comes to pass.
Nor was David sent to be the Savior of the world but one of his descendants, one would come from his body, and would sit on his throne forever and ever.
When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom........I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. -------That man would save.
What God purposes comes to pass.
I get it - it is YOU apparently who doesn't get it. It is clearly, plainly written.
amazing grace
Active Member
Let me first say that John 1:1c does nothing to negate the verses that I have given which clearly show that it's the shedding of blood that forgives sin and that Jesus Christ shed his blood making atonement for humanity. God cannot bleed . . . God cannot die.
John 1:1c --- the word was God. IF John 1:1c read: the Word was THE GOD - you would have a case BUT since the definite article is not preceding 'God', the noun 'God' is being used as an adjective, descriptive of the 'Word'. IOW - the word was the full expression of God, i.e. fully expressed who God was. That full expression of God became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. The verse is not saying that God became flesh - the 'Word' became flesh and that flesh, that human being was the only Son from the Father.
Since God never ceases to be God then God did not become flesh, i.e. a human being.
synergy
Active Member
Who is negating those verses? Not me. Stop resorting to strawmen.
The human side of Jesus bled and died. There's no negating that.
"IF John 1:1c read: the Word was THE GOD", then only Modalists would have a case. I'm not a modalist so that totally dismantles what you're promoting.
The Word in John 1:14 is the same Word who was God in 1:1, not a lesser expression or abstraction. John reinforces this reading throughout the Gospel by saying that the Word is the Creator of all things (1:3—something no mere expression can be), the μοναγενὴς θεός (“only-begotten God”) who reveals the Father (1:18), and the risen Christ confessed as “My Lord and my God” (20:28). The attempt to reduce θεός to a descriptive adjective is grammatically false, contextually incoherent, and theologically evasive; John’s opening prologue unmistakably teaches that the Word who became flesh is fully God, personally distinct from the Father, yet sharing the divine nature.
Since God can never cease to be God and since the Word was God then Jesus (as whom the Word tabernacled as) is God.
