Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Peterlag]

You ought to follow your own advise. No trinitarian speaks of those particular Jews knowing Christ is God.

Yet there are Jews who do affirm Christ as God

Thomas was one



That you failed to grasp such shows very little thinking on your part

I would enjoy watching you when you first get to heaven saying to Jesus or someone up there... but what about Thomas and what about John 1:1?

Poor Thomas might be busy for a hundred years saying everyday... no I never said that.

 

[Peterlag]

 

[Runningman]

Where in the Holy Scriptures does it say NOT or Never to wordship Jesus?

Where in the Holy Scriptures does it say Jesus rebuked those who did bow down and worship Him?

So what if there is no direct command to worship Him?

The Bible doesn't contain an explicit command like "Thou shalt worship Jesus" in the same way as the Old Testament commands worship of God (e.g., Exodus 20:3-5). However, there are numerous instances where Jesus is described as receiving worship (using the Greek word proskuneo, which means to bow down in reverence or adoration, often translated as "worship" in contexts reserved for deity), and He doesn't rebuke it—unlike angels or apostles who redirect worship to God (see Revelation 19:10; Acts 10:25-26). But there are some passages that imply or instruct honor and submission to Jesus in ways equated with worship of God.

Matthew 2:11: The Magi (wise men) visit the infant Jesus and "bowed down and worshiped him." This is an early example of worship directed at Jesus.

Matthew 14:33: After Jesus walks on water and calms the storm, the disciples in the boat "worshiped him, saying, 'Truly you are the Son of God.'"

Matthew 28:9 and 28:17: After his resurrection, the women at the tomb "clasped his feet and worshiped him," and later the disciples "worshiped him" on the mountain in Galilee.

Luke 24:52: As Jesus ascends to heaven, the disciples "worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy."

John 9:38: After Jesus heals the man born blind, the man says, "Lord, I believe," and "he worshiped him."

Philippians 2:9-11: Paul writes that God exalted Jesus so "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." This echoes Isaiah 45:23, where God says every knee will bow to Him, implying Jesus shares in divine worship.


Hebrews 1:6: Referring to Jesus, it says, "And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, 'Let all God's angels worship him.'" (Quoting Deuteronomy 32:43 from the Septuagint.)

Revelation 5:11-14: In a heavenly vision, the Lamb (symbolizing Jesus) receives worship alongside God: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" The elders and creatures "fell down and worshiped."

from christianity.stackexchange.com
Other instances of people bowing to Jesus in worship include a leper (Matthew 8:2), a ruler (Matthew 9:18), the Canaanite woman (Matthew 15:25), and the mother of James and John (Matthew 20:20). These are often cited by scholars as evidence that early Christians viewed Jesus as divine and worshipped him accordingly, especially since Jesus affirms worship of God in spirit and truth (John 4:23-24) but accepts it himself.

Can you deny the fact Jesus was clearly worshipped in the bible

John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.

Matt 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.

Matt 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.

Matt 14:33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”

Luke 24:52 And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Rev 5:12–14 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

Logos provides the following

Christ not only accepted divine worship but also demanded it1. The New Testament provides extensive evidence: the apostles and early disciples worshipped Christ both during his earthly ministry and after his ascension2. Women worshipped him following his resurrection1, and early Christians directed their prayers to Christ, becoming known as “callers upon Christ” before they were even called Christians2.

The theological foundation rests on Christ’s divine nature and authority. One who taught that God alone should be worshipped must himself be God, since he accepted worship1. Christ is presented as an object of divine worship—he whom all angels are commanded to worship and to whom every knee shall bow must be the object of spiritual worship2. This worship extends beyond mere honor; if Christ is to be worshipped as God, then he is to be worshipped with the worship required in the first commandment, which is proper to the only true God alone3.

The practice is eschatologically affirmed as well. Christ will be worshipped when the throne is set in the heavens, with archangels, angels, the four living creatures, and the twenty-four elders falling down to worship him1.

Additional biblical passages supporting Christ’s worship: Philippians 2:9–11 declares that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Hebrews 1:6 commands that all the angels of God worship him. Revelation 5:11–14 depicts heavenly worship where the Lamb receives power, riches, wisdom, might, honor, glory, and blessing alongside the one who sits on the throne.

1. 1
   R. E. Neighbour, Sermons and Bible Studies (WORDsearch, 2000), 50–51.
2. 2
   David B. Ford, “Scriptural Evidence of the Deity of Christ,” Bibliotheca Sacra (1860), 563–565.
3. 3
   John Owen, The Works of John Owen, ed. William H. Goold (Edinburgh: T&T Clark, n.d.), 12:384–385.

Christ's worship is even commanded by God the Father and transpires in heaven.

Jesus only ever mentioned that the true worshippers will worship the Father. What is your workaround for Jesus implying that false worshippers worship others who are not the Father?

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

 

[FreeInChrist]

View attachment 2658

You do not even know why he was sent.... smh.

 

[Peterlag]

You do not even know why he was sent.... smh.

I can't believe you still believe there's a trinity after all that I taught you.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I can't believe you still believe there's a trinity after all that I taught you.

You have not taught me anything.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Jesus only ever mentioned that the true worshippers will worship the Father. What is your workaround for Jesus implying that false worshippers worship others who are not the Father?

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

I do, do you?

 

[TomL]

Jesus only ever mentioned that the true worshippers will worship the Father. What is your workaround for Jesus implying that false worshippers worship others who are not the Father?

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

The question was

Can you deny the fact Jesus was clearly worshipped in the bible

John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.

Matt 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.

Matt 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.

Matt 14:33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”

Luke 24:52 And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Rev 5:12–14 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

Logos provides the following

Christ not only accepted divine worship but also demanded it1. The New Testament provides extensive evidence: the apostles and early disciples worshipped Christ both during his earthly ministry and after his ascension2. Women worshipped him following his resurrection1, and early Christians directed their prayers to Christ, becoming known as “callers upon Christ” before they were even called Christians2.

The theological foundation rests on Christ’s divine nature and authority. One who taught that God alone should be worshipped must himself be God, since he accepted worship1. Christ is presented as an object of divine worship—he whom all angels are commanded to worship and to whom every knee shall bow must be the object of spiritual worship2. This worship extends beyond mere honor; if Christ is to be worshipped as God, then he is to be worshipped with the worship required in the first commandment, which is proper to the only true God alone3.

The practice is eschatologically affirmed as well. Christ will be worshipped when the throne is set in the heavens, with archangels, angels, the four living creatures, and the twenty-four elders falling down to worship him1.

Additional biblical passages supporting Christ’s worship: Philippians 2:9–11 declares that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Hebrews 1:6 commands that all the angels of God worship him. Revelation 5:11–14 depicts heavenly worship where the Lamb receives power, riches, wisdom, might, honor, glory, and blessing alongside the one who sits on the throne.

1. 1
   R. E. Neighbour, Sermons and Bible Studies (WORDsearch, 2000), 50–51.
2. 2
   David B. Ford, “Scriptural Evidence of the Deity of Christ,” Bibliotheca Sacra (1860), 563–565.
3. 3
   John Owen, The Works of John Owen, ed. William H. Goold (Edinburgh: T&T Clark, n.d.), 12:384–385.

Christ's worship is even commanded by God the Father and transpires in heaven.

 

[TomL]

I would enjoy watching you when you first get to heaven saying to Jesus or someone up there... but what about Thomas and what about John 1:1?

Poor Thomas might be busy for a hundred years saying everyday... no I never said that.

That does not deal with the scripture

You ought to follow your own advise. No trinitarian speaks of those particular Jews knowing Christ is God.

Yet there are Jews who do affirm Christ as God

Thomas was one

John 20:28–29 (NASB 95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

And Jesus blesses those who do

That you failed to grasp such shows very little thinking on your part.

 

[Peterlag]

That does not deal with the scripture

You ought to follow your own advise. No trinitarian speaks of those particular Jews knowing Christ is God.

Yet there are Jews who do affirm Christ as God

Thomas was one

John 20:28–29 (NASB 95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

And Jesus blesses those who do

That you failed to grasp such shows very little thinking on your part.

What advice of mine am I not following?

 

[Peterlag]

You have not taught me anything.

Yeah... that's my point.

 

[TomL]

What advice of mine am I not following?

Did you forget the completely false statement you made.

"Well, @Runningman you asked how they would handle that question. They completely ignore it and go right to their talking points. Another one says he does not understand the question."

and

"You guys need to sit down and just stop. And then think."

and that I stated

No trinitarian speaks of those particular Jews knowing Christ is God.

Yet there are Jews who do affirm Christ as God

Thomas was one

John 20:28–29 (NASB 95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

Further Jesus responds positively to Thomas's statement


That you failed to grasp such shows very little thinking on your part.

 

[TomL]

I would enjoy watching you when you first get to heaven saying to Jesus or someone up there... but what about Thomas and what about John 1:1?

Poor Thomas might be busy for a hundred years saying everyday... no I never said that.

And you think Jesus would have the same thoughts after responding positively to Thomas with

Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

Hello did you think?

 

[FreeInChrist]

That does not deal with the scripture

You ought to follow your own advise. No trinitarian speaks of those particular Jews knowing Christ is God.

Yet there are Jews who do affirm Christ as God

Thomas was one

John 20:28–29 (NASB 95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

And Jesus blesses those who do

That you failed to grasp such shows very little thinking on your part.

"little thinking" is exactly why I am adding these thoughts to your post because I am not sure how much that is posted is veiled from sight of the doubters.

How many of the disciples that saw Jesus after His resurrection .. other then Thomas knew He was God?

Admittedly The Gospels indicate that the disciples were initially skeptical about Jesus' resurrection, and it wasn't until they saw Him that they believed.

All of the disciples who saw Jesus after His resurrection were Jewish, as Jesus and his followers were part of the Jewish community of the time. This includes the twelve apostles, who were his closest disciples.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Yeah... that's my point.

 

[Runningman]

I can't believe you still believe there's a trinity after all that I taught you.

I don't think they are learning anything. I think they see all of these replies as a chance to debate their position, not as a chance to find the truth. They think they already got it all figured out. All of the tough verses they see they will just reinterpret to conform to their philosophy. The truth can only be found by those who have a heart predisposed to it, but most are looking through the glass darkly, blinded by theology and philosophy, rather than seeing things for how they are.

 

[Runningman]

The question was

Can you deny the fact Jesus was clearly worshipped in the bible

John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.

Matt 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.

Matt 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.

Matt 14:33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”

Luke 24:52 And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Rev 5:12–14 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

Logos provides the following

Christ not only accepted divine worship but also demanded it1. The New Testament provides extensive evidence: the apostles and early disciples worshipped Christ both during his earthly ministry and after his ascension2. Women worshipped him following his resurrection1, and early Christians directed their prayers to Christ, becoming known as “callers upon Christ” before they were even called Christians2.

The theological foundation rests on Christ’s divine nature and authority. One who taught that God alone should be worshipped must himself be God, since he accepted worship1. Christ is presented as an object of divine worship—he whom all angels are commanded to worship and to whom every knee shall bow must be the object of spiritual worship2. This worship extends beyond mere honor; if Christ is to be worshipped as God, then he is to be worshipped with the worship required in the first commandment, which is proper to the only true God alone3.

The practice is eschatologically affirmed as well. Christ will be worshipped when the throne is set in the heavens, with archangels, angels, the four living creatures, and the twenty-four elders falling down to worship him1.

Additional biblical passages supporting Christ’s worship: Philippians 2:9–11 declares that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Hebrews 1:6 commands that all the angels of God worship him. Revelation 5:11–14 depicts heavenly worship where the Lamb receives power, riches, wisdom, might, honor, glory, and blessing alongside the one who sits on the throne.

1. 1
   R. E. Neighbour, Sermons and Bible Studies (WORDsearch, 2000), 50–51.
2. 2
   David B. Ford, “Scriptural Evidence of the Deity of Christ,” Bibliotheca Sacra (1860), 563–565.
3. 3
   John Owen, The Works of John Owen, ed. William H. Goold (Edinburgh: T&T Clark, n.d.), 12:384–385.

Christ's worship is even commanded by God the Father and transpires in heaven.

Only the true worshippers worship the Father in spirit and truth. Uh oh. Jesus is never worshipped in spirit and truth in the Bible. Physical bowing to someone isn't the same way Jesus defined true spirit and truth worship. So we have no examples of Jesus receiving God worship in the Bible. I already checked and read up on this a lot, but I am sure you will argue. I am calling check mate on this particular argument, but I am sure you will continue with something else to say.

 

[Runningman]

I do, do you?

I only worship the Father. My Lord and Savior provided no other standing instructions. There's no record of the Father ever telling believers to take a different course of action outside of what Jesus said.

 

[Peterlag]

I don't think they are learning anything. I think they see all of these replies as a chance to debate their position, not as a chance to find the truth. They think they already got it all figured out. All of the tough verses they see they will just reinterpret to conform to their philosophy. The truth can only be found by those who have a heart predisposed to it, but most are looking through the glass darkly, blinded by theology and philosophy, rather than seeing things for how they are.

They say Thomas called Jesus God. I tell them...

In seeing the resurrected Jesus, Thomas clearly saw both the Lord Jesus, and the God who raised Jesus from the dead.

The next day they say Thomas called Jesus God. I tell them again...

In seeing the resurrected Jesus, Thomas clearly saw both the Lord Jesus, and the God who raised Jesus from the dead.

The next day they say Thomas called Jesus God.

They can't learn.

 

[Peterlag]

And you think Jesus would have the same thoughts after responding positively to Thomas with

Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

Hello did you think?

It means Thomas saw the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ. Not Anything else.

Hello did you think?