praise_yeshua
Active Member
You were being "coy" with what I said. I do believe you're a "straight shooter" but you wasn't there.
Thomas... My Lord and my God
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
You were being "coy" with what I said. I do believe you're a "straight shooter" but you wasn't there.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Being sincere. I don't understand what you're saying. If you don't want to elaborate then I can't answer you.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Where have I used these arguments? Grammatical constructs in Hebrew are not absolutes. You just witnessed this fact. I agree with this fact.
What you are doing is trying to use this fact yourself to insist that it should be singular. Stop doing that. Be honest with the evidence. Some times it is plural. Sometimes it carries the connotations of being a singular title.
Which is exactly what Trinitarians believe.
Peterlag
Active Member
It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.
Runningman
Active Member
You keep contradicting the explicit statements about the Father being the one and only true God. Of course, you are being divisive and provoking arguments. Try a new angle instead of just contradicting Scripture. Let's aim for progress instead of just a rehash of the same verses. You already know the Father is the only true God so why do you keep trying to prove He is not?
Runningman
Active Member
I can quote inspired writers who believe and say the same things I do, but the point is this statement is not from an inspired writer "God is the father, God is the Son, God is the Holy Spirit"
This is trinitarian theology and dogma.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
You're preaching your own theology and dogma. Can we ever get past this nonsense that never goes anywhere?
Claims of "Inspiration" never solve anything. It is only used in an attempt to end an argument. We can talk about inspiration itself but you should never just claim or reference "inspiration" in of itself while pretending you're the one getting it right.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
They did. It is found in the teaching of Messiah Ben David and Messiah Ben Joseph. The word "Trinity" isn't needed.
You should realize that Jews killed each other and very seldom agreed upon anything. You really don't know Judaism at all. If you did, you wouldn't have said this.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Dag nab it... you are really no fun at all.
I am super happy to tell all about how I know God, and especially the Holy Spirit since He writes some of my replies....
UN UN don't say it.... don't even think it.....
I already know the true God who is recognized as the Father among the disciples.
No one here says there are other gods. Jesus is showing they came to know God whom the disciples now know in the true sense. This does not exclude Jesus also being One within that true God. So i do not know where you think your footing is when denying Christ.
You have to deny John 1 that shows Christ as the One who with God and was God. But you just do not like acknowledging who Christ is. That is a bad situation to be in.
civic
Active Member
He is no longer with us. He went off with numerous foul and unacceptable/ abusive language which I immediately deleted the post and banned him. One and done and someone that got tempered that cannot control themself will not be tolerated here.
I could say more but all i want to say is uummmpphhh. Oops. Oh well.
Sorry that question is not addressing the issue
The point here was the article you posted makes Jesus deceptive in his words
John 8:52–58 (NASB 95) — 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’ 53 Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; 55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
He states Abraham pastly rejoiced to see his day
He saw it (past) and was glad
The Jews question Christ's age and having seen Abraham. Past tense.
Christ notes he preceded Abraham's birth
Having him state he will see Abraham in the future does not address
The words of Christ
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day,
nor the Jews question
You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?
That future malarky you posted is just that malarky.
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You failed to address the verses which speak of Christ creating the world
Christ is presented in scripture as a creator. Multiple verses state he created the world
Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
This you did not address
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
This you did not address
1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
This you did not address
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
This you did not address
Col 1:15–17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
How often will you deny the very word of God?
The creator in John 1:1 was involved in all creation; nothing was created apart from him thus the creator in John 1 is Jesus Christ.
This you did not address
Or you can just read the text
John 1:1–18 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
The word was light and became flesh. John testified as to this light as Jesus Christ
His glory was seen as the only begotten of the Father, and he pre-existed becoming flesh.
The word was full of grace and truth - grace and truth realized through Jesus Christ
Thus the word is clearly identified as Jesus Christ
or you can just read
Revelation 19:11–13 (NASB 95) — 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
This you did not address
further Christ being the image of God, the radiance of his glory, and the exact representation of God's nature
Col 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
2 Cor 4:4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Heb 1:3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
The same yesterday , today and tomorrow
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
John 17:5Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Thus Christ the Word was a personal being, for as a non personal thing is not the image of God nor the exact representation of his nature, therefore he could never have been non personal
This you did not address
So, as noted previously, you are doubly wrong.
Regarding Col 1:15 It is not stated all things are limited to thrones, dominions, Rulers or authorities
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Will you argue Christ created all authorities, rulers in the heavens?
In any case the verse shows He was a person before anything which was created
Doug Brents
Active Member
It was stated, and it was believed. But they didn't make as big a deal of it then because there wasn't anyone actively teaching against Jesus' deity, like you. The focus on Jesus' deity is purely in response to Satan's attack (through you) against who Jesus is.
Of course the Jews who are not Christ followers don't believe in the deity of Jesus. They don't believe He was/is the Messiah, so of course they believe He was just a man. But I happen to know a congregation of several hundred Messianic Jewish believers who believe and teach the deity of Jesus.
There you are wrong. Paul understood and taught the deity of Jesus. Peter understood and taught the deity of Jesus. Luke, Matthew, James, etc. all understood and taught the deity of Jesus. It is only Satan, and his followers, who teach that Jesus is not God.
civic
Active Member
I’m a pretty patient and forgiving person but certain things cannot be tolerated. And those who know me also know I don’t like having to be the forum policeman. I enjoy having lively , honest, engaging discussions on most forum topics. That’s what I enjoy doing regardless of one’s beliefs. It just goes back to the golden rule.
Yahweh speaking of Yahweh
Zechariah 2:8–13 (LEB) — 8 For thus said Yahweh of hosts, after glory he sent me against the nations plundering you: Truly, the one touching you is touching the apple of his eye. 9 “Yes, look! I am going to wave my hand against them, and they will become plunder for their servants, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me. 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for look, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares Yahweh. 11 “Many nations will join themselves to Yahweh on that day, and they will be my people, and I will dwell in your midst. And you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me to you. 12 And Yahweh will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and he will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all people, before Yahweh, for he is roused from his holy dwelling.”
Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the 3rd person
Exodus 19:20–25 (LEB) — 20 And Yahweh went down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain, and Yahweh called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21 And Yahweh said to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, lest they break through to Yahweh to see and many from them fall. 22 And even the priests who come near Yahweh must consecrate themselves, lest Yahweh break out against them.” 23 And Moses said to Yahweh, “The people are not able to go up to Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, saying, ‘Set limits around the mountain and consecrate it.’ ” 24 And Yahweh said to him, “Go, go down, and come up, you and Aaron with you and the priests, but the people must not break through to go up to Yahweh, lest he break out against them.” 25 And Moses went down to the people, and he told them.
Zechariah 10:12 (NASB95) — 12 “And I will strengthen them in the Lord, And in His name they will walk,” declares the Lord
Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the 3rd person
John 20:28–29 (NASB 95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
Peterlag
Active Member
Well, @Runningman you asked how they would handle that question. They completely ignore it and go right to their talking points. Another one says he does not understand the question.
Peterlag
Active Member
I'm not talking about the Jews of the New Testament. I'm referring to the Jews of the Old Testament. They never saw or taught a trinity.
