Thomas... My Lord and my God

Durg said:
How do I know???

Jesus is the creator of THIS planet. There are trillions of galaxies and trillions of suns within those galaxies with humans on them. EVERY planet fell. Each one needed a savior. Jesus was an angel - he and his angelic buddies designed this planet which we call EARTH. Other planets also had an angelic 'Jesus' who became human and was crucified to restore the planet they helped create.

When you look up at the stars they likely have planets and ONE with humans on it.

If you only knew the rest.
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Ah a JW...

Are you an elder? I don't want to waste my time with someone that reports to someone else.
 
Peterlag said:
What I know for sure is that Jesus saying "I am" or "I am before anyone else" is not a teaching on the trinity. A teaching... a whole paragraph or chapter. The Jews never saw it anywhere in the entire Old Testament nor anyone in the New Testament ever taught it.
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The point here was the article you posted

makes Jesus deceptive in his words

John 8:52–58 (NASB 95) — 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’ 53 Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; 55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

He states Abraham pastly rejoiced to see his day

He saw it (past) and was glad

The Jews question Christ's age and having seen Abraham.

Christ notes he preceded Abraham's birth

Having him state he will see Abraham in the future does not address

The words of Christ

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day,
nor the Jews question

You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?

That future malarky you posted is just that malarky.
 
Peterlag said:
And I'm saying Christ is not presented in scripture as a creator. Multiple verses do not state he created the world.

Then I say the creator in John 1:1 was involved in all creation; nothing was created apart from it thus the creator in John 1 is the logos. Here I will post it again...
John 1:1 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it's clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

A friend of mine put it this way... "The word "logos" (Word) denotes (I) "the expression of thought" as embodying a conception or idea. λόγος "logos" is something said (including the thought). So the word "logos" means an expression of thought. It makes perfect sense if we use this understanding everywhere the word "logos" is used. So in John 1:1 the Word is not Jesus, but rather it became flesh, which is God's expression of thought or plan that became flesh with the coming of Jesus Christ."
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There you go again denying scripture

Christ is presented in scripture as a creator. Multiple verses state he created the world
Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
Col 1:15–17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

How often will you deny the very word of God

The creator in John 1:1 was involved in all creation; nothing was created apart from him thus the creator in John 1 is Jesus Christ.

Or you can just read the text

John 1:1–18 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

The word was light and became flesh. John testified as to this light as Jesus Christ

His glory was seen as the only begotten of the Father, and he pre-existed becoming flesh.

The word was full of grace and truth - grace and truth realized through Jesus Christ

Thus the word is clearly identified as Jesus Christ

or you can just read

Revelation 19:11–13 (NASB 95) — 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

But your view is clearly contrary to much of scripture, which you try to cover up by calling hilarious what you cannot rebut.

further Christ being the image of God, the radiance of his Glory and the exact reprentation of God's nature

Col 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
2 Cor 4:4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Heb 1:3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
The same yesterday , today and tomorrow
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
John 17:5Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Thus Christ the Word was a personal being, as a non personal thing is not the image of God nor the exact representation of his nature.

So, as noted previously, you are doubly wrong.

and btw

Rev 19:13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
 
FreeInChrist said:
Actually, there are multiple New Testament passages that explicitly say all things were created by Jesus (the Word/Son), and that nothing exists that He did not make.

Here are the clearest verses (use any Bible translation; they all say the same thing):

  1. John 1:3“All things were made through Him [the Word = Jesus, v. 14], and without Him nothing was made that was made.**.....
  2. (Greek: πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν).The “him” is the Word (Λόγος)
  3. This is the strongest single verse. It says positively (“all things through Him”) and negatively (“without Him nothing was made”). ( Even the NWT states vs 3. All things came into existence through him and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
  4. Colossians 1:16–17 (Paul writing about Christ)“For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”→ “By Him … through Him … for Him” — very thorough.
  5. Hebrews 1:2–3God “has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power…”→ The Son is the one through whom God made the universe (literally “the ages”/worlds).
  6. 1 Corinthians 8:6“yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.”
  7. Revelation 3:14 (Jesus calls Himself “the Beginning of the creation of God” (Greek ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ), which early Christians understood as “the Source/Originator of God’s creation,” not “the first thing created.
So when you say “there’s no verse that says Jesus made all things,”
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The Unitarian then claims an obvious falsehood.
 
Runningman said:
So God alone is a He, but God with someone else is a them. Well, that settles it. God is one person. Turns out that pronouns do have meaning after all.
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So do you honor and worship a man as much as you honor and worship God as does he?

Peterlag said:
The spirit of God that He sometimes calls the spirit of Christ is the same spirit. When you have it, you have both God and Christ's spirit in you since it's God in Christ in you.

I do both. I worship both.

23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
 
TomL said:
There you go again denying scripture

Christ is presented in scripture as a creator. Multiple verses state he created the world
Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Heb 1:10 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
Col 1:15–17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

How often will you deny the very word of God

The creator in John 1:1 was involved in all creation; nothing was created apart from him thus the creator in John 1 is Jesus Christ.

Or you can just read the text

John 1:1–18 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

The word was light and became flesh. John testified as to this light as Jesus Christ

His glory was seen as the only begotten of the Father, and he pre-existed becoming flesh.

The word was full of grace and truth - grace and truth realized through Jesus Christ

Thus the word is clearly identified as Jesus Christ

or you can just read

Revelation 19:11–13 (NASB 95) — 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

But your view is clearly contrary to much of scripture, which you try to cover up by calling hilarious what you cannot rebut.

further Christ being the image of God, the radiance of his Glory and the exact reprentation of God's nature

Col 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
2 Cor 4:4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Heb 1:3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
The same yesterday , today and tomorrow
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
John 17:5Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Thus Christ the Word was a personal being, as a non personal thing is not the image of God nor the exact representation of his nature.

So, as noted previously, you are doubly wrong.

and btw

Rev 19:13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Click to expand...
There you go again. You continue to post Colossians 1:16. How many times do I have to respond to that? Don't you read what I say?

Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colossians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.

So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colossians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.

It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.
 
TomL said:
The point here was the article you posted

makes Jesus deceptive in his words

John 8:52–58 (NASB 95) — 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’ 53 Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; 55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

He states Abraham pastly rejoiced to see his day

He saw it (past) and was glad

The Jews question Christ's age and having seen Abraham.

Christ notes he preceded Abraham's birth

Having him state he will see Abraham in the future does not address

The words of Christ

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day,
nor the Jews question

You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?

That future malarky you posted is just that malarky.
Click to expand...
Are these the same Jews saying that Jesus has a devil and that he's only been around less than 50 years that also fell down to the ground because they knew Jesus was God?

cc @Runningman @praise_yeshua
 
praise_yeshua said:
Make the argument your own. Stop this nonsense of posting someone else's defense as evidence of anything. They are not YOUR words. Stop pretending to be someone else.
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Pretending to be someone else? Did I not say this was written by a friend of mine? Here look at it again...

Written by one of my classmates that I went to school with...​

 
Trinitarians tell me the New Testament Jews knew Jesus was God.

Is that why they took up stones to try to kill him? (John 8:59)

Trinitarians also say that's why the Jews went backwards and fell to the ground because they knew Jesus was God. (John 18:6)

So, are these the same Jews that told Jesus he has not even been around 50 years and that he has a devil that also believed he was God?

@Runningman
 
Last edited:
Peterlag said:
Trinitarians tell me the New Testament Jews knew Jesus was God.

Is that why they took up stones to try to kill him? (John 8:59)

Trinitarians also say that's why the Jews went backwards and fell to the ground because they knew Jesus was God. (John 18:6)

So, are these the same Jews that told Jesus he has not even been around 50 years and that he has a devil that also believed he was God?

@Runningman
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Peterlag gets the simplest things confused and thus makes his argument weak.

John 8:59 is not quite specific on which details led to the people wanting to stone him. It could be that he called God his father or that he said they did not know God or the crowd's reaction to him saying he existed before Abraham. Jesus also called them liars. At least to me, this is not a clear enough passage to think the crowd saw Jesus's offense being found in a claim of deity.
 
TomL said:
So do you honor and worship a man as much as you honor and worship God as does he?

Peterlag said:
The spirit of God that He sometimes calls the spirit of Christ is the same spirit. When you have it, you have both God and Christ's spirit in you since it's God in Christ in you.

I do both. I worship both.

23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Click to expand...
What about God being a He when alone and a "we" when with someone else? That's what I was originally talking about and you tried an old switcheroo. Jesus can be bowed to, just as Scripture states, without it being God worshipped. Jesus is never worshipped as God in the Bible. God alone is worshipped in spirit and truth (John 4:23,24) which is not the same thing as physical bowing.
 
Durg said:
Wrong buddy. I've never been now ever will be a JW.
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Ever heard of Biblical Unitarianism? We believe only God is the Father.

Here's a good link to what we believe exactly. There are variations in belief, but mostly it's the same. When I was first looking for a church to go to this is what I found that matches what I believe the most. There are home churches where I am, as there are spread out across the world, but not many brick and mortar church establishments like one is used to seeing.

https://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/what-do-biblical-unitarians-believe
 

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