praise_yeshua
Active Member
I never said it was wrong. "Pick on me". Don't run away.
Thomas... My Lord and my God
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
I never said it was wrong. "Pick on me". Don't run away.
You do not address this
Christ is presented in scripture as a creator. Multiple verses state he created the world
The creator in John 1:1 was involved in all creation; nothing was created apart from him thus the creator in John 1 is Jesus Christ.
Or you can just read the text
John 1:1–18 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
The word was light and became flesh. John testified as to this light as Jesus Christ
His glory was seen as the only begotten of the Father, and he pre-existed becoming flesh.
The word was full of grace and truth - grace and truth realized through Jesus Christ
Thus the word is clearly identified as Jesus Christ
or you can just read
Revelation 19:11–13 (NASB 95) — 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
But your view is clearly contrary to much of scripture, which you try to cover up by calling hilarious what you cannot rebut.
further Christ being the image of God, the radiance of his Glory and the exact reprentation of God's nature
Col 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
2 Cor 4:4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Heb 1:3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
The same yesterday , today and tomorrow
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
John 17:5Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Thus Christ the Word was a personal being, as a non personal thing is not the image of God nor the exact representation of his nature.
So, as noted previously, you are doubly wrong.
Doug Brents
Active Member
In the Septuagint Exo 3:14 does indeed say "ego eimi ho eimi" at the beginning of the verse. That is God saying "I am, because I am." I exist because I exist. But that is not the part of the verse that I quoted. The latter part of the verse has God telling Moses to tell the Israelites, "I AM has sent me". "Ego eimi" is exactly the same phrase that John used. I am not disputing your translation. I am disputing you focus on the wrong parts of Scripture and misinterpreting Scripture based on your preconception.
You never addressed this
BTW all things were made by him and that eliminates the possibility of him being a thing.
John 1:3 (NASB 95) — 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Seeing he Jesus, created the world and the world came into existence which apart from the above creator cannot be
Attention here Christ is proven to be a he who created all things.
as I stated
Therefore he Jesus must be the creator of all things
And He is the radiance of the glory of God the exact representation of his nature
Heb 1:1–3God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Through whom (personal reality) he made the world
Importantly, can a non personal thing represent the nature of God?
You fail to answer
Can an it be The image of God?
Colossians 1:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
And it was by him, not it all things were created.
2 Cor 4:4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Is God a non personal thing?
Is a non personal thing an image of God?
Is God himself a mere thing?
You provide no answer
Philippians 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
He Christ existed in the form of a thing or in the form of God according to scripture?
Can a non personal thing exist in the form of God?
Such is an incredible impossibility
And so you avoid a reply
The result is Your claim of his existence as a thing is clearly unbiblical if you actually examine scripture.
And additionally, we see He created all things.
And you stand in error regarding both points being addressed.
BTW, you disregarded this as well.
Revelation 19:13 (NASB 95) — 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
The word of God here is a personal being.
Your posts are filled with multiple denials of scripture and errors.
And the word is a person
Rev 19:13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Yet another fact you ignore
Last edited:
Peterlag
Active Member
Written by one of my class mates that I went to school with...
"Before Abraham Comes to be (in the future), I am" John 8:58
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.54)]- December 12, 2024[/COLOR]Before Abraham Was (in the past), or Before Abraham Comes to Be (in the future)?
The key error in the deity of Christ understanding of John 8:58 is in translating Jesus’ statement about Abraham in the past when it refers to Abraham coming to be in the future. The Greek word γενέσθαι genesthai[1] in John 8:58 which is often translated in past tense -- “before Abraham was” (KJV, RSV, ESV) or “was born” (NAS, NIV) or “came into existence” (NET) -- can and as we will see, is better interpreted in a future sense. “Before Abraham comes to be, I am.” Note Young’s Literal Translation and the Literal Standard Version, which are more ambiguous, translate in the present tense:“before Abraham’s coming - I am”.
Video presentation for this teaching, click here.
The Greek word γενέσθαι genesthai occurs in this exact form seven times in the Gospel of John. In every occurrence, without exception, the word relates to something that will become or potentially comes to be at some point in the future. In John 8:58, “before Abraham comes to be, I am” would mean that before Abraham comes to be in the future, Jesus is (the Messiah, specifically here the light of the world). Before God's promises to Abraham are fulfilled – that Abraham would be the father of many nations, that Abraham’s seed would inherit the land, that Abraham would be the channel of blessing to all families of the earth, and before Abraham himself would come to be in the promised resurrection from the dead – before all that - the Messiah comes as the Light of the World. The Messiah Jesus IS the light of the world, before Abraham comes to be.
In other words, Jesus is making a Messianic claim to be the channel through whom God’s promises to Abraham will be fulfilled. Jesus’ claim is not a claim to be God, but to be the Messiah, the Light of the World through whom God is at work to fulfill God’s promises to Abraham.
Abraham is dead and buried in Hebron, yet to become, yet to experience the fulfillment of God’s promises to him, including resurrection from the dead.
[td]
[/td]
[td]
Tombs of the Patriarchs, including Abraham, © Satellite Bible Atlas
[/td]The seven occurrences of γενέσθαι genesthai in the Gospel of John are listed below. Note that in none of the other occurrences is genesthai translated in typical English Bibles in the past tense, which is strong evidence that likewise Jesus’s “I am” statement in John 8:58 about his relation to Abraham should NOT be understood or translated in the past tense:
1:12, “the right to become children of God”
3:9, “how can these things be/become”
5:6, “do you want to be/become healthy?”
8:58, “before Abraham becomes/comes to be, I am”
9:27, “Do you want to become his disciples?”
13:19, “I tell you this now, before it comes to be/happens”
14:29, “I have told you now before it comes to be/happens, so that when it happens you may believe.”
Other uses of γενέσθαι in Johannine letters and Revelation confirm that the word in this form (aorist infinitive middle voice) communicates the idea of a potential or future coming to be. There are not a lot of occurrences, but here are some examples:
2 John 1:12 Although I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink; instead I hope to come γενέσθαι to you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete.
Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place γενέσθαι; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John… (See the same usage in Revelation 1:19, 4:1, 22:6).[2]
Another interesting use of the same word is by Paul in Romans 4:18, since it specifically relates to Abraham:
Romans 4:18 Hoping against hope, he believed that he would become γενέσθαι "the father of many nations," according to what was said, "So numerous shall your descendants be."
To declare that Abraham hoped to become something and someone in the future, the apostle Paul used the exact same word (γενέσθαι) that the Gospel of John uses to describe the relationship of Jesus and Abraham.
Summary Points:
1) Translating the Greek word γενέσθαι genesthai in the past tense as “was born” or “was” in John 8:58 goes against all other occurrences of this exact same Greek word in the Gospel of John. In all other occurrences in John, γενέσθαι genesthai does not communicate something in the past tense but rather denotes someone or something that potentially could be or will be in the future. This is strong evidence that the word in John 8:58 relates to Abraham coming to be in a future context.
2) The closest grammatical parallel statement to John 8:58 is John 14:29 since in both statements the subject of the verb genesthai is preceded by the word “before” (πρὶν).[3]
John 14:29, “I have told you before it comes to be/happens” πρὶν (it) γενέσθαι
John 8:58, “before Abraham comes to be” πρὶν Abraham γενέσθαι
The word “before” in both John 8:58 and 14:29 makes it clear that Jesus statement in 8:58 is about Abraham coming to be in a future context. Jesus’s statement does not relate to Jesus being present before Abraham was born in the past. Rather, Jesus “I am” statement relates to Jesus being present before Abraham comes to be in the future.
3) Trinitarian (all "deity-of-Christ") presuppositions concerning the literal pre-incarnate existence of Christ have negatively influenced the translation and interpretation of this verse, making it a claim about Jesus’s relationship to Abraham in the past, while it should be interpreted in connection to Jesus’s being the Light of the world Messiah before Abraham “comes to be” in the future. The end result of the Trinitarian interpretation is a deflection from the hope of the promises of God fulfilled in resurrection.
- - - - - - - -
Footnotes:
[1] Infinitive aorist middle from γίνομαι, capable of many translations, including “become, happen, take place, be born, be made.”
[2] Revelation 1:19 Now write what you have seen, what is, and what is to take place γενέσθαι after this.
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and there in heaven a door stood open! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place γενέσθαι after this."
Revelation 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true, for the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place γενέσθαι".
[3] John 13:19 is of similar grammatical construction and relates to something that will yet be in the future, using another Greek word for “before” πρό: "before it comes to be" πρὸ τοῦ γενέσθαι
Peterlag
Active Member
I post concerning John 1:1 often. Here it is again...
John 1:1 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.
Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."
If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it's clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.
A friend of mine put it this way... "The word "logos" (Word) denotes (I) "the expression of thought" as embodying a conception or idea. λόγος "logos" is something said (including the thought). So the word "logos" means an expression of thought. It makes perfect sense if we use this understanding everywhere the word "logos" is used. So in John 1:1 the Word is not Jesus, but rather it became flesh, which is God's expression of thought or plan that became flesh with the coming of Jesus Christ."
You make Jesus deceptive in his words
John 8:52–58 (NASB 95) — 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’ 53 Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; 55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
He states Abraham pastly rejoiced to see his day
He saw it (past) and was glad
The Jews question Christ's age and having seen Abraham.
Christ notes he preceded Abraham's birth
Having him state he will see Abraham in the future does not address
The words of Christ
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day,
nor the Jews question
You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?
Doug Brents
Active Member
Jesus is not saying anything about the fulfillment of the promises to Abraham. He is talking about the existence of Abraham as a man. Abraham was long dead when Jesus made this statement. The point He is making is that before Abraham existed, He (Jesus) already existed. This is clear because of the reaction of the listeners. They heard Jesus, and understood Him to be saying that He was God; that He existed before Abraham, and that He was greater than their primary patriarch.
That does not address what has been written
You do not address this
Christ is presented in scripture as a creator. Multiple verses state he created the world
The creator in John 1:1 was involved in all creation; nothing was created apart from him thus the creator in John 1 is Jesus Christ.
Or you can just read the text
John 1:1–18 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
The word was light and became flesh. John testified as to this light as Jesus Christ
His glory was seen as the only begotten of the Father, and he pre-existed becoming flesh.
The word was full of grace and truth - grace and truth realized through Jesus Christ
Thus the word is clearly identified as Jesus Christ
or you can just read
Revelation 19:11–13 (NASB 95) — 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
But your view is clearly contrary to much of scripture, which you try to cover up by calling hilarious what you cannot rebut.
further Christ being the image of God, the radiance of his Glory and the exact reprentation of God's nature
Col 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
2 Cor 4:4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Heb 1:3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
The same yesterday , today and tomorrow
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
John 17:5Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Thus Christ the Word was a personal being, as a non personal thing is not the image of God nor the exact representation of his nature.
So, as noted previously, you are doubly wrong.
and btw
Rev 19:13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Written by one of my class mates that I went to school with...
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.54)]- December 12, 2024[/COLOR]
"Before Abraham Comes to be (in the future), I am" John 8:58
Before Abraham Was (in the past), or Before Abraham Comes to Be (in the future)?The key error in the deity of Christ understanding of John 8:58 is in translating Jesus’ statement about Abraham in the past when it refers to Abraham coming to be in the future. The Greek word γενέσθαι genesthai[1] in John 8:58 which is often translated in past tense -- “before Abraham was” (KJV, RSV, ESV) or “was born” (NAS, NIV) or “came into existence” (NET) -- can and as we will see, is better interpreted in a future sense. “Before Abraham comes to be, I am.” Note Young’s Literal Translation and the Literal Standard Version, which are more ambiguous, translate in the present tense:
“before Abraham’s coming - I am”.
Video presentation for this teaching, click here.
The Greek word γενέσθαι genesthai occurs in this exact form seven times in the Gospel of John. In every occurrence, without exception, the word relates to something that will become or potentially comes to be at some point in the future. In John 8:58, “before Abraham comes to be, I am” would mean that before Abraham comes to be in the future, Jesus is (the Messiah, specifically here the light of the world). Before God's promises to Abraham are fulfilled – that Abraham would be the father of many nations, that Abraham’s seed would inherit the land, that Abraham would be the channel of blessing to all families of the earth, and before Abraham himself would come to be in the promised resurrection from the dead – before all that - the Messiah comes as the Light of the World. The Messiah Jesus IS the light of the world, before Abraham comes to be.
In other words, Jesus is making a Messianic claim to be the channel through whom God’s promises to Abraham will be fulfilled. Jesus’ claim is not a claim to be God, but to be the Messiah, the Light of the World through whom God is at work to fulfill God’s promises to Abraham.
Abraham is dead and buried in Hebron, yet to become, yet to experience the fulfillment of God’s promises to him, including resurrection from the dead.
[td]
[/td]
[td]
Tombs of the Patriarchs, including Abraham, © Satellite Bible Atlas
[/td]
The “I am” statement of Jesus in John 8:58 is not about what Jesus was in the past before Abraham was born around 2000 BC. Rather, the “I am” statement in John 8:58 is about what Jesus is at the time he was on the earth before Abraham comes to be in the future: “I am (he, the Messiah-Light of world) before Abraham comes to be.”
The seven occurrences of γενέσθαι genesthai in the Gospel of John are listed below. Note that in none of the other occurrences is genesthai translated in typical English Bibles in the past tense, which is strong evidence that likewise Jesus’s “I am” statement in John 8:58 about his relation to Abraham should NOT be understood or translated in the past tense:
1:12, “the right to become children of God”
3:9, “how can these things be/become”
5:6, “do you want to be/become healthy?”
8:58, “before Abraham becomes/comes to be, I am”
9:27, “Do you want to become his disciples?”
13:19, “I tell you this now, before it comes to be/happens”
14:29, “I have told you now before it comes to be/happens, so that when it happens you may believe.”
Other uses of γενέσθαι in Johannine letters and Revelation confirm that the word in this form (aorist infinitive middle voice) communicates the idea of a potential or future coming to be. There are not a lot of occurrences, but here are some examples:
2 John 1:12 Although I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink; instead I hope to come γενέσθαι to you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete.
Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place γενέσθαι; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John… (See the same usage in Revelation 1:19, 4:1, 22:6).[2]
Another interesting use of the same word is by Paul in Romans 4:18, since it specifically relates to Abraham:
Romans 4:18 Hoping against hope, he believed that he would become γενέσθαι "the father of many nations," according to what was said, "So numerous shall your descendants be."
To declare that Abraham hoped to become something and someone in the future, the apostle Paul used the exact same word (γενέσθαι) that the Gospel of John uses to describe the relationship of Jesus and Abraham.
Summary Points:
1) Translating the Greek word γενέσθαι genesthai in the past tense as “was born” or “was” in John 8:58 goes against all other occurrences of this exact same Greek word in the Gospel of John. In all other occurrences in John, γενέσθαι genesthai does not communicate something in the past tense but rather denotes someone or something that potentially could be or will be in the future. This is strong evidence that the word in John 8:58 relates to Abraham coming to be in a future context.
2) The closest grammatical parallel statement to John 8:58 is John 14:29 since in both statements the subject of the verb genesthai is preceded by the word “before” (πρὶν).[3]
John 14:29, “I have told you before it comes to be/happens” πρὶν (it) γενέσθαι
John 8:58, “before Abraham comes to be” πρὶν Abraham γενέσθαι
The word “before” in both John 8:58 and 14:29 makes it clear that Jesus statement in 8:58 is about Abraham coming to be in a future context. Jesus’s statement does not relate to Jesus being present before Abraham was born in the past. Rather, Jesus “I am” statement relates to Jesus being present before Abraham comes to be in the future.
3) Trinitarian (all "deity-of-Christ") presuppositions concerning the literal pre-incarnate existence of Christ have negatively influenced the translation and interpretation of this verse, making it a claim about Jesus’s relationship to Abraham in the past, while it should be interpreted in connection to Jesus’s being the Light of the world Messiah before Abraham “comes to be” in the future. The end result of the Trinitarian interpretation is a deflection from the hope of the promises of God fulfilled in resurrection.
- - - - - - - -
Footnotes:
[1] Infinitive aorist middle from γίνομαι, capable of many translations, including “become, happen, take place, be born, be made.”
[2] Revelation 1:19 Now write what you have seen, what is, and what is to take place γενέσθαι after this.
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and there in heaven a door stood open! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place γενέσθαι after this."
Revelation 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true, for the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place γενέσθαι".
[3] John 13:19 is of similar grammatical construction and relates to something that will yet be in the future, using another Greek word for “before” πρό: "before it comes to be" πρὸ τοῦ γενέσθαι
Make the argument your own. Stop this nonsense of posting someone else's defense as evidence of anything. They are not YOUR words. Stop pretending to be someone else.
I hope this was a creative writing class rather than a theological class. It obviously fails theologically. The people hearing him were not saying "what will happen in the future to make this so?" They were saying that Jesus is not more than 50 years of age and thus cannot be before Abraham -- per their ability to think who Jesus could be.
Written by one of my class mates that I went to school with...
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.54)]- December 12, 2024[/COLOR]
"Before Abraham Comes to be (in the future), I am" John 8:58
Before Abraham Was (in the past), or Before Abraham Comes to Be (in the future)?The key error in the deity of Christ understanding of John 8:58 is in translating Jesus’ statement about Abraham in the past when it refers to Abraham coming to be in the future. The Greek word γενέσθαι genesthai[1] in John 8:58 which is often translated in past tense -- “before Abraham was” (KJV, RSV, ESV) or “was born” (NAS, NIV) or “came into existence” (NET) -- can and as we will see, is better interpreted in a future sense. “Before Abraham comes to be, I am.” Note Young’s Literal Translation and the Literal Standard Version, which are more ambiguous, translate in the present tense:
“before Abraham’s coming - I am”.
Video presentation for this teaching, click here.
The Greek word γενέσθαι genesthai occurs in this exact form seven times in the Gospel of John. In every occurrence, without exception, the word relates to something that will become or potentially comes to be at some point in the future. In John 8:58, “before Abraham comes to be, I am” would mean that before Abraham comes to be in the future, Jesus is (the Messiah, specifically here the light of the world). Before God's promises to Abraham are fulfilled – that Abraham would be the father of many nations, that Abraham’s seed would inherit the land, that Abraham would be the channel of blessing to all families of the earth, and before Abraham himself would come to be in the promised resurrection from the dead – before all that - the Messiah comes as the Light of the World. The Messiah Jesus IS the light of the world, before Abraham comes to be.
In other words, Jesus is making a Messianic claim to be the channel through whom God’s promises to Abraham will be fulfilled. Jesus’ claim is not a claim to be God, but to be the Messiah, the Light of the World through whom God is at work to fulfill God’s promises to Abraham.
Abraham is dead and buried in Hebron, yet to become, yet to experience the fulfillment of God’s promises to him, including resurrection from the dead.
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Tombs of the Patriarchs, including Abraham, © Satellite Bible Atlas
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The “I am” statement of Jesus in John 8:58 is not about what Jesus was in the past before Abraham was born around 2000 BC. Rather, the “I am” statement in John 8:58 is about what Jesus is at the time he was on the earth before Abraham comes to be in the future: “I am (he, the Messiah-Light of world) before Abraham comes to be.”
The seven occurrences of γενέσθαι genesthai in the Gospel of John are listed below. Note that in none of the other occurrences is genesthai translated in typical English Bibles in the past tense, which is strong evidence that likewise Jesus’s “I am” statement in John 8:58 about his relation to Abraham should NOT be understood or translated in the past tense:
1:12, “the right to become children of God”
3:9, “how can these things be/become”
5:6, “do you want to be/become healthy?”
8:58, “before Abraham becomes/comes to be, I am”
9:27, “Do you want to become his disciples?”
13:19, “I tell you this now, before it comes to be/happens”
14:29, “I have told you now before it comes to be/happens, so that when it happens you may believe.”
Other uses of γενέσθαι in Johannine letters and Revelation confirm that the word in this form (aorist infinitive middle voice) communicates the idea of a potential or future coming to be. There are not a lot of occurrences, but here are some examples:
2 John 1:12 Although I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink; instead I hope to come γενέσθαι to you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete.
Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place γενέσθαι; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John… (See the same usage in Revelation 1:19, 4:1, 22:6).[2]
Another interesting use of the same word is by Paul in Romans 4:18, since it specifically relates to Abraham:
Romans 4:18 Hoping against hope, he believed that he would become γενέσθαι "the father of many nations," according to what was said, "So numerous shall your descendants be."
To declare that Abraham hoped to become something and someone in the future, the apostle Paul used the exact same word (γενέσθαι) that the Gospel of John uses to describe the relationship of Jesus and Abraham.
Summary Points:
1) Translating the Greek word γενέσθαι genesthai in the past tense as “was born” or “was” in John 8:58 goes against all other occurrences of this exact same Greek word in the Gospel of John. In all other occurrences in John, γενέσθαι genesthai does not communicate something in the past tense but rather denotes someone or something that potentially could be or will be in the future. This is strong evidence that the word in John 8:58 relates to Abraham coming to be in a future context.
2) The closest grammatical parallel statement to John 8:58 is John 14:29 since in both statements the subject of the verb genesthai is preceded by the word “before” (πρὶν).[3]
John 14:29, “I have told you before it comes to be/happens” πρὶν (it) γενέσθαι
John 8:58, “before Abraham comes to be” πρὶν Abraham γενέσθαι
The word “before” in both John 8:58 and 14:29 makes it clear that Jesus statement in 8:58 is about Abraham coming to be in a future context. Jesus’s statement does not relate to Jesus being present before Abraham was born in the past. Rather, Jesus “I am” statement relates to Jesus being present before Abraham comes to be in the future.
3) Trinitarian (all "deity-of-Christ") presuppositions concerning the literal pre-incarnate existence of Christ have negatively influenced the translation and interpretation of this verse, making it a claim about Jesus’s relationship to Abraham in the past, while it should be interpreted in connection to Jesus’s being the Light of the world Messiah before Abraham “comes to be” in the future. The end result of the Trinitarian interpretation is a deflection from the hope of the promises of God fulfilled in resurrection.
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Footnotes:
[1] Infinitive aorist middle from γίνομαι, capable of many translations, including “become, happen, take place, be born, be made.”
[2] Revelation 1:19 Now write what you have seen, what is, and what is to take place γενέσθαι after this.
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and there in heaven a door stood open! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place γενέσθαι after this."
Revelation 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true, for the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place γενέσθαι".
[3] John 13:19 is of similar grammatical construction and relates to something that will yet be in the future, using another Greek word for “before” πρό: "before it comes to be" πρὸ τοῦ γενέσθαι
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Peterlag
Active Member
You post this and say I'm not addressing it...
John 1:1–18 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, 3 All things came into being through Him,
Here I will post it again and put in red the verses you mention and the ones I respond to.
John 1:1 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.
Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."
If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it's clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.
A friend of mine put it this way... "The word "logos" (Word) denotes (I) "the expression of thought" as embodying a conception or idea. λόγος "logos" is something said (including the thought). So the word "logos" means an expression of thought. It makes perfect sense if we use this understanding everywhere the word "logos" is used. So in John 1:1 the Word is not Jesus, but rather it became flesh, which is God's expression of thought or plan that became flesh with the coming of Jesus Christ."
John 1:3 “Everything came to be through it.” The logos is an “it” not a “him.”
Translators have deliberately chosen to use “him” because they wanted to emphasize that the Word was the male person we know as Jesus. This was a theological choice, not a linguistic one.
"Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you” (Proverbs 4:6).
Is the Wisdom in Proverbs 4:6 a distinct divine person?
The "Word" is not literally a person for the same reason that "Wisdom" is not literally a person. Both are to be taken metaphorically.
Jesus is the personification of the Word because He speaks the words of God. To listen to Jesus equals listening to the Word of God.
People often say I'm wrong when I post this because they say I looked it up in an Interlinear or Concordance and it shows the word is a "him" and not an "it." Those reference books show how the Bible translates a word and not what the Greek actually means. The pronoun is an "it" when it refers to an inanimate noun like the "Word" because Greek has grammatical gender and the "Word" in John 1 is a thing so the Greek says it's an "it."
Here's a partial list of how "logos" is translated in the New Testament...
cause, communication, sayings, saying, word, words, account, talk, question, treatise, intent, tidings, speaker, matter, mouth, work, utterance, preaching, speech, concerning, show, do, doctrine, reason, with, and thing.
Peterlag
Active Member
So you don't believe what my friend wrote who translates Old Testament Bibles.
Peterlag
Active Member
So you don't believe what my friend wrote who translates Old Testament Bibles.
Hell no. It will help if you expose who he is and share what translations have been affected by him. The problem that happens is the apparent introduction of new, novel, private, gnostic interpretation that remains unaccepted and unproven, which then causes troubled translations. If scholars do not even find that guy's theology acceptable from the Greek (and Hebrew) readings alone, it is not fit to prematurely put such interpretation into the translations.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Actually, there are multiple New Testament passages that explicitly say all things were created by Jesus (the Word/Son), and that nothing exists that He did not make.
Here are the clearest verses (use any Bible translation; they all say the same thing):
- John 1:3“All things were made through Him [the Word = Jesus, v. 14], and without Him nothing was made that was made.**.....
- (Greek: πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν).The “him” is the Word (Λόγος)
- This is the strongest single verse. It says positively (“all things through Him”) and negatively (“without Him nothing was made”). ( Even the NWT states vs 3. All things came into existence through him and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
- Colossians 1:16–17 (Paul writing about Christ)“For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.”→ “By Him … through Him … for Him” — very thorough.
- Hebrews 1:2–3God “has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power…”→ The Son is the one through whom God made the universe (literally “the ages”/worlds).
- 1 Corinthians 8:6“yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.”
- Revelation 3:14 (Jesus calls Himself “the Beginning of the creation of God” (Greek ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ), which early Christians understood as “the Source/Originator of God’s creation,” not “the first thing created.
“There actually are several. The most explicit is John 1:3: ‘All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.’ Colossians 1:16 and Hebrews 1:2 say the same thing in slightly different words. These verses are direct statements from the apostles that the Person who became Jesus Christ is the active Agent in the creation of literally everything that exists.”
Indeed if there were any doubt of Jesus being described the the logos, these other passages show him as active in creation. That then affirms the logos speaks of the pre-existent Christ, not just a set of ideas or words of the Father.
Runningman
Active Member
Trinity is totally out of the question at this point. This is you being informed who God is and who God is not.
Runningman
Active Member
So God alone is a He, but God with someone else is a them. Well, that settles it. God is one person. Turns out that pronouns do have meaning after all.
Exactly. The Trinity concept is not the question being answered. So, the verses you share do nothing to deny the deity of Christ.
But we do know from the Two Powers in Heaven, that Jews started to conceive something like a Binitarian concept of God. Still, that was not the focus of the verses you shared - neither an affirmation nor a denial of that. But you unitarians will deny as much history as needed to keep you blind to the essence of Christ.
