Thomas... My Lord and my God

[TomL]

View attachment 2648

And all the greek texts and modern texts correct that error.

KJV 1900 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
ESV All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
NIV84 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
KJV All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
LEB All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.
ASV All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
NRSV All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being
NKJV All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
RSV all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
NASB 95 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
UASV All things came into being through him, and apart from him, not one thing came into being that has come into being.

BTW all things were made by him and that eliminates the possibility of him being a thing.

And He is the radiance of the glory of God the exact representation of his nature


Heb 1:1–3God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Through whom (personal reality) he made the world

Importantly, can a non personal thing represent the nature of God?

Can it be The image of God?

Colossians 1:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

And it was by him, not it all things were created.

2 Cor 4:4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Is God a non personal thing?

Is a non personal thing an image of God?

Is God himself a mere thing?

Philippians 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

He Christ existed in the form of a thing or in the form of God according to scripture?

Can a non personal thing exist in the form of God?

Such is an incredible impossibility/

The result is Your claim of his existence as a thing is clearly unbiblical if you actually examine scripture

Sorry but the Greek pronoun is masculine, not neuter.

The Greek and the text are contrary to the neuter

John 1:3 (NASB95) — 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:3 (NA27) — 3 πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν. ὃ γέγονεν

αυτος autos he
RP3GSM pronoun, personal, third person, genitive, singular, masculine
LN 92.11 Louw-Nida

Again

John 1:3 (NA27) — 3 πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν. ὃ γέγονεν

αυτος autos he
RP3GSM pronoun, personal, third person, genitive, singular, masculine
LN 92.11 Louw-Nida

Scripture continues

John 1:3–5 (NASB 95) — 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

It is filled with a masculine pronoun.

 

[TomL]

Again, I make a claim which does address the fact. And because you do not believe what I say. You then say I'm not responding to the subject.

When was God pierced?

We have one who is coming with clouds, one to whom is glory and dominion. He had been pierced.

Hello, Jesus, not the Father, had been pierced.

Revelation 1:6–8 (NASB 95) — 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
with

He who is to come is the Lord God, the almighty

Revelation 22:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. 16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

The speaker here is identified as Jesus. It is He who is coming

see also

Mark 14:62 (NASB 95) — 62 And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”

It is Christ who comes with the clouds of heaven


20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

The coming one is the Lord Jesus.

The one pierced is Jesus Christ.

He is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end

So he is the coming one, God, the almighty.

 

[TomL]

It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.

Once again from multiple verses we see Christ created all

This is nothing more than a desparate attempt to deny Christ as the creator

John 1:1–3In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
The word who became flesh as Jesus Christ is he through whom all things came into being. He through whom nothing came into being apart from

Heb 1:2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
The world was made by him

John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

Again the world was made through him

1 Cor 8:6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
By the Lord Jesus are all things, indeed we exist through him

Heb 1:10And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands;

The foundation of the earth was by the Lord Jesus as was the heavens

Now for the one verse you quote out of six

Col 1:15–17He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
We find Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation
All things were made by him in heaven and earth
for which you say

The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colosians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.
Were your limited view true there still would be no denial Christ was the creator of all things both in heaven and earth

And from the verse we see Jesus is the image of the invisible God.

Colossians 1:15–20 (NASB 95) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

He in whom all the fullness dwells

And the verse states all things were made by him

 

[TomL]

Again, I make a claim which does address the fact. And because you do not believe what I say. You then say I'm not responding to the subject.

Again you make a claim which does not address the fact

We have one who is coming with clouds, one to whom is glory and dominion. He had been pierced.

Hello, Jesus, not the Father, had been pierced.

Revelation 1:6–8 (NASB 95) — 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
with

He who is to come is the Lord God, the almighty

Revelation 22:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. 16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

The coming one is the Lord Jesus.

The one pierced is Jesus Christ.

He is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end

So he is the coming one, God, the almighty.

 

[Doug Brents]

John 1:14 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

You keep making this claim, but Scripture does not agree with you.

The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh.

Did it spring into being just because it took a physical form? No. The Word (Logos) did not have a beginning. It came down from Heaven and took on the form of a man. It always exists.

In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

Yes, the beginning of Jesus as a human happened as Matthew states, but Jesus was very clear that He did not begin when He took on flesh (John 3:13, John 6:33, 38, John 8:58). He is the only human who ever came from Heaven before His birth. He is the only being that ever existed in Heaven and then was born as a man. He did not start His existence when He was born. He has always existed, because He was in the beginning with the Father, and He was one with the Father.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

You think that by repeating the same thing over and over to make your posts longer that you are making your point better? Or that you are in some way solidifying your argument?

 

[TomL]

You keep making this claim, but Scripture does not agree with you.

Did it spring into being just because it took a physical form? No. The Word (Logos) did not have a beginning. It came down from Heaven and took on the form of a man. It always exists.

Yes, the beginning of Jesus as a human happened as Matthew states, but Jesus was very clear that He did not begin when He took on flesh (John 3:13, John 6:33, 38, John 8:58). He is the only human who ever came from Heaven before His birth. He is the only being that ever existed in Heaven and then was born as a man. He did not start His existence when He was born. He has always existed, because He was in the beginning with the Father, and He was one with the Father.

You think that by repeating the same thing over and over to make your posts longer that you are making your point better? Or that you are in some way solidifying your argument?

Yep! How that guy can claim he who is the image of God, the radiance of his glory, the exact representation of his nature, who exists in the form of God can be a non personal thing is absurd.

 

[civic]

For those interested, I have shared that logos is used as in metonymy ( a figure of speech related to analogy). Basically that means that the characteristics of logos used in other contexts have now been used to identify One who exists with God and is God. Before sharing that One who came incarnate as Jesus, this unnamed One had been active in the creation of the world.

The metonymic use essentially takes the apologetic sense of logos developed by Philo in his incorporation of Proverbs 8 (with the participation of Wisdom in creation) and identified that creative role with One who participated along with God. John 1 then takes that unnamed One and shows that he took on flesh with whom we know as Jesus. This then is the pre-existent One who came in the flesh. This concept of logos also shows Jesus as the logos of Greek philosophy. Thus the text would appeal to anyone whether Jewish or Greek so they could know who Jesus is.

Therefore Jesus is a "he" not an "it," contrary to what the unitarians believe.
Some discussion of this also appears in #the-apostle-concept-of-logos

Praise God who used a Jewish apologist to connect a Greek philosophical concept of logos with the God of Israel. This happened in the proper moment of time to further identify the logos as the pre-existent One who came as Jesus. Jews would then have Philo's ideas shared among them as John's gospel was distributed.

The unitarian fails to understand the context and culture under which John 1 was written.

I would add to the above which is very good that the Word in John 1:1 who is identified as God was also known as the Son since scripture in a few places with the same creation account has the Son identified as the Person responsible for creating all things. That’s one reason I uphold the biblical doctrine of the eternal Son whom we identify as the 2nd Person of the Trinity. And we know the Trinity is eternal and has not changed as Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

On a side note it boggles my mind how anyone who claims to believe in the Trinity to deny the Eternal Son. If there is no eternal Son then there is no eternal Father either. You cannot have one without the other.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Nice job in this thread @TomL defending the truth about the Eternal Son who is God Incarnate. God manifest in the flesh to use a biblical term. Also the Word who became flesh another biblical phrase and we know that the Word was God who created all things.

Amen !!!

 

[FreeInChrist]

Now that we have debunked the trinity, I want to hear from every trinitarian on this board. Explain this away, if you can. @TomL already took a swing, missed, got refuted, and kept copying and pasting the same replies expecting a different result.

I'll give it the old college try. With one caveat.....
It is becoming increasingly apparent that there are just enough variants in each translation of the Holy Scriptures to skew
anyone's beliefs away from his brothers..... The most obvious example is comparing John 1 KJV with John 1 NWT

I do not care which is your translation of choice.... these are patently opposites so naturally people would disagree.

John 1:1 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 NWT In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was a god

So, that being said.....

Fact: The Angel of the LORD (מַלְאַךְ יְהוָה) is repeatedly identified in the Old Testament in ways that no mere created angel ever is.

Several passages show that this figure is both is distinct from “normal” angels and this figure actually receives worship, speaks as God in the first person, and is explicitly called YHWH.

We are shown in

Genesis 16:7–13
The Angel of the LORD speaks to Hagar.

v. 10: The Angel Himself promises “I will multiply your offspring…” (a promise only God can make and keep).

v. 13: Hagar calls Him “You are a God of seeing… Have I even remained alive after seeing Him?” She explicitly identifies the Angel as God/YHWH.


Genesis 22:11–18
The Angel of the LORD calls from heaven and says in v. 12: “You have not withheld your son from Me.”

Then in v. 15–18 the same Angel swears by Himself: “By Myself I have sworn, declares YHWH… I will bless you…” The Angel speaks as YHWH and swears by YHWH because He is YHWH.

Exodus 3:2–6
“The Angel of the LORD appeared to [Moses] in a blazing fire from the midst of the bush” (v. 2).

Immediately
v. 4: “God called to him from the midst of the bush…”

v. 6: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham…”→ The text treats the Angel and God as the same person.

Judges 6:11–24 (Gideon)
The Angel of the LORD appears and speaks.

v. 14: “YHWH turned to him and said, ‘Go in this your strength…’” (the subject shifts seamlessly from the Angel to YHWH).

v. 22: Gideon realizes “Alas, O Lord YHWH! For I have seen the Angel of YHWH face to face!”

v. 23: “But YHWH said to him, ‘Peace…’” Again, the Angel is YHWH.

Judges 13:3–22(Manoah, Samson’s father)
The Angel of the LORD appears.

When asked His name, He says “It is wonderful [פֶּלִאי]” (v. 18) the same adjective Isaiah later applies to the Messiah in Isa 9:6.

After the Angel ascends in the flame, Manoah says (v. 22): “We shall surely die, for we have seen God.” They understood they had seen YHWH Himself.

Zechariah 3:1–2 and other passages The Angel of the LORD is distinguished from created angels and speaks with divine authority (“YHWH rebuke you, Satan!”).

Other created angels always refuse worship and redirect it to God (Rev 19:10; 22:9). The Angel of the LORD accepts sacrifices and worship (Judg 6:20–21; 13:16–20) because He is not a creature.


Early Jewish writers (pre-Christian Septuagihil, Philo, some targums) and the entire post-apostolic Christian church have understood the Angel of the LORD to be a visible manifestation of the God of Israel—specifically, in Christian theology, the pre-incarnate Son (the second Person of the Trinity), not the Father.


So the claim “nothing in the Bible says the Angel of the LORD is YHWH Himself” simply isn’t accurate. Scripture repeatedly identifies this specific Angel as YHWH while distinguishing Him from the Father (the one who sends Him, e.g., Gen 24:7; Exod 23:20; Zech 1:12), which is exactly what we’d expect if He is the eternal Son appearing in the Old Testament before the incarnation.


That’s the standard Trinitarian (and historic Christian) reading of the texts. As we know, and acknowledge Unitarians and some Jewish interpreters disagree, but the evidence that the Angel is treated as divine and identified as YHWH is pervasive in the passages above.

 

[Runningman]

I'll give it the old college try. With one caveat.....
It is becoming increasingly apparent that there are just enough variants in each translation of the Holy Scriptures to skew
anyone's beliefs away from his brothers..... The most obvious example is comparing John 1 KJV with John 1 NWT

I do not care which is your translation of choice.... these are patently opposites so naturally people would disagree.

John 1:1 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 NWT In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was a god

So, that being said.....

Fact: The Angel of the LORD (מַלְאַךְ יְהוָה) is repeatedly identified in the Old Testament in ways that no mere created angel ever is.

Several passages show that this figure is both is distinct from “normal” angels and this figure actually receives worship, speaks as God in the first person, and is explicitly called YHWH.

We are shown in

Genesis 16:7–13
The Angel of the LORD speaks to Hagar.

v. 10: The Angel Himself promises “I will multiply your offspring…” (a promise only God can make and keep).

v. 13: Hagar calls Him “You are a God of seeing… Have I even remained alive after seeing Him?” She explicitly identifies the Angel as God/YHWH.


Genesis 22:11–18
The Angel of the LORD calls from heaven and says in v. 12: “You have not withheld your son from Me.”

Then in v. 15–18 the same Angel swears by Himself: “By Myself I have sworn, declares YHWH… I will bless you…” The Angel speaks as YHWH and swears by YHWH because He is YHWH.

Exodus 3:2–6
“The Angel of the LORD appeared to [Moses] in a blazing fire from the midst of the bush” (v. 2).

Immediately
v. 4: “God called to him from the midst of the bush…”

v. 6: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham…”→ The text treats the Angel and God as the same person.

Judges 6:11–24 (Gideon)
The Angel of the LORD appears and speaks.

v. 14: “YHWH turned to him and said, ‘Go in this your strength…’” (the subject shifts seamlessly from the Angel to YHWH).

v. 22: Gideon realizes “Alas, O Lord YHWH! For I have seen the Angel of YHWH face to face!”

v. 23: “But YHWH said to him, ‘Peace…’” Again, the Angel is YHWH.

Judges 13:3–22(Manoah, Samson’s father)
The Angel of the LORD appears.

When asked His name, He says “It is wonderful [פֶּלִאי]” (v. 18) the same adjective Isaiah later applies to the Messiah in Isa 9:6.

After the Angel ascends in the flame, Manoah says (v. 22): “We shall surely die, for we have seen God.” They understood they had seen YHWH Himself.

Zechariah 3:1–2 and other passages The Angel of the LORD is distinguished from created angels and speaks with divine authority (“YHWH rebuke you, Satan!”).

Other created angels always refuse worship and redirect it to God (Rev 19:10; 22:9). The Angel of the LORD accepts sacrifices and worship (Judg 6:20–21; 13:16–20) because He is not a creature.


Early Jewish writers (pre-Christian Septuagihil, Philo, some targums) and the entire post-apostolic Christian church have understood the Angel of the LORD to be a visible manifestation of the God of Israel—specifically, in Christian theology, the pre-incarnate Son (the second Person of the Trinity), not the Father.


So the claim “nothing in the Bible says the Angel of the LORD is YHWH Himself” simply isn’t accurate. Scripture repeatedly identifies this specific Angel as YHWH while distinguishing Him from the Father (the one who sends Him, e.g., Gen 24:7; Exod 23:20; Zech 1:12), which is exactly what we’d expect if He is the eternal Son appearing in the Old Testament before the incarnation.


That’s the standard Trinitarian (and historic Christian) reading of the texts. As we know, and acknowledge Unitarians and some Jewish interpreters disagree, but the evidence that the Angel is treated as divine and identified as YHWH is pervasive in the passages above.

You have only made the case for your beliefs, not debunk that the angel of the LORD is not the LORD, nor should you try.

Can you prove that the angel is not a messenger, contrary to explicitly being called a messenger, but rather YHWH Himself?

How do you know that the messenger of the LORD is not speaking messages for YHWH but rather speaking directly as YHWH?

How do you account for the messenger of the LORD and YHWH not being called the same names and titles with consistency?

 

[Runningman]

I wasn't quoting Peter.

Who are you referring to here then: "The fact that you admit you don't believe Scripture tells me you have no business in a Christian debate forum. You don't believe in the God of Scripture or in His revealed Word. You are unworthy."

 

[Runningman]

LOL there you go imagining support for your theology again




This is totally false, for we see

Yahweh sends Yahweh

Zechariah 2:8–13 (LEB) — 8 For thus said Yahweh of hosts, after glory he sent me against the nations plundering you: Truly, the one touching you is touching the apple of his eye. 9 “Yes, look! I am going to wave my hand against them, and they will become plunder for their servants, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me. 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for look, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares Yahweh. 11 “Many nations will join themselves to Yahweh on that day, and they will be my people, and I will dwell in your midst. And you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent me to you. 12 And Yahweh will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and he will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all people, before Yahweh, for he is roused from his holy dwelling.”

Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the 3rd person

Exodus 19:20–25 (LEB) — 20 And Yahweh went down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain, and Yahweh called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21 And Yahweh said to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, lest they break through to Yahweh to see and many from them fall. 22 And even the priests who come near Yahweh must consecrate themselves, lest Yahweh break out against them.” 23 And Moses said to Yahweh, “The people are not able to go up to Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, saying, ‘Set limits around the mountain and consecrate it.’ ” 24 And Yahweh said to him, “Go, go down, and come up, you and Aaron with you and the priests, but the people must not break through to go up to Yahweh, lest he break out against them.” 25 And Moses went down to the people, and he told them.

Genesis 19:24 (UASV) — 24 Then Jehovah rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven,

Jehovah (yahweh) who was on earth rained down fire from Jehovah (yahweh) in heaven

Jehovah God will make the following strong in Jehovah not in himself refering to the Jehovah he was making them strong in as those who walk in his name

Zechariah 10:6–12 (UASV) — 6 “I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph. I will bring them back because I have compassion on them, and they shall be as though I had not rejected them, for I am Jehovah their God and I will answer them. 7 Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior, and their hearts shall rejoice as if from wine. Their sons shall see it and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in Jehovah. 8 “I will whistle for them and gather them in, for I have redeemed them, and they shall be as numerous as they were before. 9 Though I sow them among the nations, yet in far countries they shall remember me, and with their sons they shall live and return. 10 I will bring them back from the land of Egypt, and gather them from Assyria, and I will bring them to the land of Gilead and to Lebanon, until there is no room for them. 11 And he shall pass through the sea of distress and strike down the waves of the sea, and all the depths of the Nile shall dry up. The pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the scepter of Egypt shall depart. 12 I will make them strong in Jehovah, and they shall walk in his name,” declares Jehovah.

Exodus 19:10–25 (NASB95) — 10 The Lord also said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments; 11 and let them be ready for the third day, for on the third day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. 12 “You shall set bounds for the people all around, saying, ‘Beware that you do not go up on the mountain or touch the border of it; whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. 13 ‘No hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot through; whether beast or man, he shall not live.’ When the ram’s horn sounds a long blast, they shall come up to the mountain.” 14 So Moses went down from the mountain to the people and consecrated the people, and they washed their garments. 15 He said to the people, “Be ready for the third day; do not go near a woman.” 16 So it came about on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunder and lightning flashes and a thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked violently. 19 When the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and God answered him with thunder. 20 The Lord came down on Mount Sinai, to the top of the mountain; and the Lord called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up. 21 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Go down, warn the people, so that they do not break through to the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish. 22 “Also let the priests who come near to the Lord consecrate themselves, or else the Lord will break out against them.” 23 Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up to Mount Sinai, for You warned us, saying, ‘Set bounds about the mountain and consecrate it.’ ” 24 Then the Lord said to him, “Go down and come up again, you and Aaron with you; but do not let the priests and the people break through to come up to the Lord, or He will break forth upon them.” 25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.

And we have a being who is sent by Yahweh God whose hand founded the earth and spread out the heaven

Isaiah 48:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 “Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

And we have Jesus who is stated to have created all things

John 1:1–3In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Heb 1:1–2God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
1 Cor 8:6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Hebrews 1:8–10 (NASB 95) — 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
John 1:10 (NASB 95) — 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

The angel of the Lord is called Yahweh

Exodus 3:2–15 (KJV 1900) — 2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. 7 And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; 8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them. 10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt. 11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? 12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

And we see he who is the first and the last but sent by Yahweh God

Isaiah 48:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 “Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

Genesis 22:15–18 (NASB95) — 15 Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 “In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

Below the angel of the Lord calls himself the God of Bethel

Genesis 31:11–13 (NASB95) — 11 “Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob,’ and I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 “He said, ‘Lift up now your eyes and see that all the male goats which are mating are striped, speckled, and mottled; for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. 13 ‘I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar, where you made a vow to Me; now arise, leave this land, and return to the land of your birth.’ ”

The angel of God declared himself the God of Bethel the God jacob made a vow to having also identified as Yahweh seen below

Genesis 28:18–22 (NASB 95) — 18 So Jacob rose early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on its top. 19 He called the name of that place Bethel; however, previously the name of the city had been Luz. 20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me and will keep me on this journey that I take, and will give me food to eat and garments to wear, 21 and I return to my father’s house in safety, then the LORD (yahweh) will be my God. 22 This stone, which I have set up as a pillar, will be God’s house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You.”



Thus your claims are clearly refuted





Lets see You state Balaam can speak only the words God puts in his mouth

Numbers 22:26–35 (NASB 95) — 26 The angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place where there was no way to turn to the right hand or the left. 27 When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam; so Balaam was angry and struck the donkey with his stick. 28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?” 29 Then Balaam said to the donkey, “Because you have made a mockery of me! If there had been a sword in my hand, I would have killed you by now.” 30 The donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not your donkey on which you have ridden all your life to this day? Have I ever been accustomed to do so to you?” And he said, “No.” 31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way with his drawn sword in his hand; and he bowed all the way to the ground. 32 The angel of the LORD said to him, “Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out as an adversary, because your way was contrary to me. 33 But the donkey saw me and turned aside from me these three times. If she had not turned aside from me, I would surely have killed you just now, and let her live.” 34 Balaam said to the angel of the LORD, “I have sinned, for I did not know that you were standing in the way against me. Now then, if it is displeasing to you, I will turn back.” 35 But the angel of the LORD said to Balaam, “Go with the men, but you shall speak only the word which I tell you.” So Balaam went along with the leaders of Balak.

But here is the Angel of the Lord telling him that he may only speak his words


So what? How does that address the fact

The Angel of the Lord appeared to her and she called the name of the lord who spoke to her A God who sees

Genesis 16:9–14 (NASB 95) — 9 Then the angel of the LORD said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself to her authority.” 10 Moreover, the angel of the LORD said to her, “I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count.” 11 The angel of the LORD said to her further, “Behold, you are with child, And you will bear a son; And you shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction. 12 “He will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone’s hand will be against him; And he will live to the east of all his brothers.” 13 Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, “You are a God who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?” 14 Therefore the well was called Beer-lahai-roi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.

BTW that Lord is Yahweh.

This is nonsense.

Let's recap where you went wrong:

The Bible distinguishes God from his angels. Angels are among the heavenly host and act as God's servants doing the will of God:

Psalm 103
20Bless the LORD, all His angels mighty in strength
who carry out His word,
who hearken to the voice of His command.
21Bless the LORD, all His hosts,
you servants who do His will.

So your entire premise is contradicted by a clear couple verses. How do you still make sense of what you wrote?

 

[Peterlag]

You keep making this claim, but Scripture does not agree with you.

Did it spring into being just because it took a physical form? No. The Word (Logos) did not have a beginning. It came down from Heaven and took on the form of a man. It always exists.

Yes, the beginning of Jesus as a human happened as Matthew states, but Jesus was very clear that He did not begin when He took on flesh (John 3:13, John 6:33, 38, John 8:58). He is the only human who ever came from Heaven before His birth. He is the only being that ever existed in Heaven and then was born as a man. He did not start His existence when He was born. He has always existed, because He was in the beginning with the Father, and He was one with the Father.

You think that by repeating the same thing over and over to make your posts longer that you are making your point better? Or that you are in some way solidifying your argument?

I'm not going out of my way to repeat the last part of anything I post. The ending is already part of what I have wrote and I saved it to my computer because folks like you keep repeating the same John 1:1 and John 1:3 and John 1:14.

 

[amazing grace]

I'll give it the old college try. With one caveat.....
It is becoming increasingly apparent that there are just enough variants in each translation of the Holy Scriptures to skew
anyone's beliefs away from his brothers..... The most obvious example is comparing John 1 KJV with John 1 NWT

I do not care which is your translation of choice.... these are patently opposites so naturally people would disagree.

John 1:1 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 NWT In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was a god

So, that being said.....

Fact: The Angel of the LORD (מַלְאַךְ יְהוָה) is repeatedly identified in the Old Testament in ways that no mere created angel ever is.

FACT: The angel of the LORD was an angel sent to act as a messenger, an intermediary between God and his people in the scripture, mainly the OT.

Several passages show that this figure is both is distinct from “normal” angels and this figure actually receives worship, speaks as God in the first person, and is explicitly called YHWH.

We are shown in

Genesis 16:7–13
The Angel of the LORD speaks to Hagar.

v. 10: The Angel Himself promises “I will multiply your offspring…” (a promise only God can make and keep).

v. 13: Hagar calls Him “You are a God of seeing… Have I even remained alive after seeing Him?” She explicitly identifies the Angel as God/YHWH.
Genesis 22:11–18
The Angel of the LORD calls from heaven and says in v. 12: “You have not withheld your son from Me.”

Then in v. 15–18 the same Angel swears by Himself: “By Myself I have sworn, declares YHWH… I will bless you…” The Angel speaks as YHWH and swears by YHWH because He is YHWH.
Exodus 3:2–6
“The Angel of the LORD appeared to [Moses] in a blazing fire from the midst of the bush” (v. 2).

Immediately
v. 4: “God called to him from the midst of the bush…”

v. 6: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham…”→ The text treats the Angel and God as the same person. Judges 6:11–24 (Gideon)
The Angel of the LORD appears and speaks.

v. 14: “YHWH turned to him and said, ‘Go in this your strength…’” (the subject shifts seamlessly from the Angel to YHWH).

v. 22: Gideon realizes “Alas, O Lord YHWH! For I have seen the Angel of YHWH face to face!”

v. 23: “But YHWH said to him, ‘Peace…’” Again, the Angel is YHWH.

Judges 13:3–22(Manoah, Samson’s father)
The Angel of the LORD appears.

When asked His name, He says “It is wonderful [פֶּלִאי]” (v. 18) the same adjective Isaiah later applies to the Messiah in Isa 9:6.

After the Angel ascends in the flame, Manoah says (v. 22): “We shall surely die, for we have seen God.” They understood they had seen YHWH Himself.

Zechariah 3:1–2 and other passages The Angel of the LORD is distinguished from created angels and speaks with divine authority (“YHWH rebuke you, Satan!”).

Other created angels always refuse worship and redirect it to God (Rev 19:10; 22:9). The Angel of the LORD accepts sacrifices and worship (Judg 6:20–21; 13:16–20) because He is not a creature.

Early Jewish writers (pre-Christian Septuagihil, Philo, some targums) and the entire post-apostolic Christian church have understood the Angel of the LORD to be a visible manifestation of the God of Israel—specifically, in Christian theology, the pre-incarnate Son (the second Person of the Trinity), not the Father.

So the claim “nothing in the Bible says the Angel of the LORD is YHWH Himself” simply isn’t accurate. Scripture repeatedly identifies this specific Angel as YHWH while distinguishing Him from the Father (the one who sends Him, e.g., Gen 24:7; Exod 23:20; Zech 1:12), which is exactly what we’d expect if He is the eternal Son appearing in the Old Testament before the incarnation.

That’s the standard Trinitarian (and historic Christian) reading of the texts. As we know, and acknowledge Unitarians and some Jewish interpreters disagree, but the evidence that the Angel is treated as divine and identified as YHWH is pervasive in the passages above.

[el - 1. god, god-like one, mighty one a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes b) angels c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations) d) God, the one true God, Jehovah 2. mighty things in nature; 3. strength, power]

The angel of the LORD is one who acts on behalf of God and also speaks for God AS God------I have quoted MANY times about the Jewish Principle of Agency - The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion: Agent (Heb. Shaliah): The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself” (Ned. 72B; Kidd, 41b). Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principle; who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent.
http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text/Raymond Essoe -- Shaliah.pdf
Christian Monotheism
Source

Angels are created beings.
which is exactly what we’d expect if He is the eternal Son appearing in the Old Testament before the incarnation.........
Well, that premise just destroyed Hebrews 1!! GOD DID NOT SPEAK TO US BY HIS SON UNTIL THESE LAST DAYS.

 

[Peterlag]

Again you make a claim which does not address the fact

We have one who is coming with clouds, one to whom is glory and dominion. He had been pierced.

Hello, Jesus, not the Father, had been pierced.

Revelation 1:6–8 (NASB 95) — 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
with

He who is to come is the Lord God, the almighty

Revelation 22:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying. 16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

The coming one is the Lord Jesus.

The one pierced is Jesus Christ.

He is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end

So he is the coming one, God, the almighty.

I probably said this to you already and I know I have said it many times to others here. I don't go into the book of Revelation. So I don't know much about it. What I do know is the words “I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God” are not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. These words apply to God, not to Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

And all the greek texts and modern texts correct that error.

KJV 1900 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
ESV All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
NIV84 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
KJV All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
LEB All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.
ASV All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
NRSV All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being
NKJV All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
RSV all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
NASB 95 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
UASV All things came into being through him, and apart from him, not one thing came into being that has come into being.

BTW all things were made by him and that eliminates the possibility of him being a thing.

And He is the radiance of the glory of God the exact representation of his nature


Heb 1:1–3God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Through whom (personal reality) he made the world

Importantly, can a non personal thing represent the nature of God?

Can it be The image of God?

Colossians 1:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

And it was by him, not it all things were created.

2 Cor 4:4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Is God a non personal thing?

Is a non personal thing an image of God?

Is God himself a mere thing?

Philippians 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

He Christ existed in the form of a thing or in the form of God according to scripture?

Can a non personal thing exist in the form of God?

Such is an incredible impossibility/

The result is Your claim of his existence as a thing is clearly unbiblical if you actually examine scripture

All things were not made by Jesus and there's no Scripture that says Jesus made all things.

 

[mikesw]

I probably said this to you already and I know I have said it many times to others here. I don't go into the book of Revelation. So I don't know much about it. What I do know is the words “I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God” are not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. These words apply to God, not to Christ.

That is one of those situations where what you don't know actually does come back and bite you.

 

[mikesw]

FACT: The angel of the LORD was an angel sent to act as a messenger, an intermediary between God and his people in the scripture, mainly the OT.

[el - 1. god, god-like one, mighty one a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes b) angels c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations) d) God, the one true God, Jehovah 2. mighty things in nature; 3. strength, power]

The angel of the LORD is one who acts on behalf of God and also speaks for God AS God------I have quoted MANY times about the Jewish Principle of Agency - The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion: Agent (Heb. Shaliah): The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, “a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself” (Ned. 72B; Kidd, 41b). Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principle; who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent.
http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text/Raymond Essoe -- Shaliah.pdf
Christian Monotheism
Source

This post represents the common error of flattening the meaning of scripture so that it no longer says (to that interpreter) what it actually intends to convey. The Jews had encountered the Two Powers in Heaven (by Alan Segal) and debated the significance of passages where the angel turns out to be Yahweh.
It is solidly obvious that a Jewish encyclopedia is not going to recognize that the Angel of the Lord is Yahweh. It is that fact of the Angel as Yahweh that too strongly backs up the divinity of Christ, which the Jews did not want recognized.

Angels are created beings.
which is exactly what we’d expect if He is the eternal Son appearing in the Old Testament before the incarnation.........
Well, that premise just destroyed Hebrews 1!! GOD DID NOT SPEAK TO US BY HIS SON UNTIL THESE LAST DAYS.

I know discussions get sloppy at times. It is obvious that Jesus did not appear as Son and Prophet until the last days. That is the way he would speak to all of Judea and surrounding areas. You can avoid posting your error on this in subsequent threads.

 

[Runningman]

That is one of those situations where what you don't know actually does come back and bite you.

Oh the irony.

 

[Runningman]

This post represents the common error of flattening the meaning of scripture so that it no longer says (to that interpreter) what it actually intends to convey. The Jews had encountered the Two Powers in Heaven (by Alan Segal) and debated the significance of passages where the angel turns out to be Yahweh.

Rejected by orthodox Jews.