Thomas... My Lord and my God

[amazing grace]

pure and utter nonsense as the previous post you quoted of mine destroys your copy/paste article filled with nothing but eisegesis whereas mine demonstrated exegesis, consistency, fits the biblical narrative etc........

Isn't this true? [biblegateway.com All (3) New Testament (3) Revelation (3)] The phrase 'Alpha and Omega' in Revelation is used 3x - refers twice 1) to the Father......the Lord God, the Almighty at Rev. 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Rev. 21:6.....2) to the Father, And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
And once to Christ at Rev. 22:13 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” ---- Jesus Christ second coming.

Isn't this true? The phrase - 'who is and who was and who is to come' - all refer to the Father
Rev. 1:4 Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne [God, the Father];
Rev. 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”;
And Rev. 4:8 ....“Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!”.
Jesus isn't called the 'Almighty', the Lord God, nor the 'Lord God Almighty'.

Isn't this true? The phrase - 'the first and the last' in Revelation - all refer to Christ Rev. 1:17.....When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
Rev. 2:8 ..... ‘The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.
And Rev. 22:13 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
All in the above section refer to Jesus Christ - Jesus died, Jesus was raised from the dead to eternal life to live evermore and Jesus will return 'so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.' (2 Cor. 5:10)
The phrase - 'the beginning and the end' - once to the Father Rev. 21:6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
And once to Christ Rev. 22:13 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Yes, the Bible calls God and Christ "Alpha and the Omega" and 'the first and the last'.
Isaiah's 44:6; 41:4; 48:12 --- refer to Yahweh - He is the eternal One, or at least He preexisted all living things.
Calling Jesus Christ 'the first and the last' probably means the same as in Rev. 3:14, which Christ calls himself - 'the Beginning of the creation of God. These terms when referring to Christ designate Jesus as the 'head' or 'chief' of the new creation of God because he is the first one resurrected from the dead.
Both God and Christ calling themselves 'the Alpha and the Omega' and 'the beginning and the end' do not make Christ God, just as calling both God and Christ 'Lord' does not make Christ God.

Not a cut a past - I posted my source: (Info paraphrased from The Restitution, Biblical Proof Jesus is NOT God; Kermit Zarley, p 478)... NOW - You have the obligation to POINT OUT WHERE I have quoted anything that is pure and utter nonsense.

 

[TomL]

The Father told Jesus what to do and say and then Jesus tells the church what to do. Jesus is our high priest and mediator, not God. Don't nuke it. The Father is still alone the true God, nothing undoes that. I hope that helps you straighten it out.

Lets see

The angel of the lord is stated to be God

Exodus 3:2–6 (NASB 95) — 2 The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. 3 So Moses said, “I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up.” 4 When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 Then He said, “Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” 6 He said also, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
and Yahweh

Exodus 3:7–15 (NASB 95) — 7 The LORD said, “I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt, and have given heed to their cry because of their taskmasters, for I am aware of their sufferings. 8 So I have come down to deliver them from the power of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. 9 Now, behold, the cry of the sons of Israel has come to Me; furthermore, I have seen the oppression with which the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 “Therefore, come now, and I will send you to Pharaoh, so that you may bring My people, the sons of Israel, out of Egypt.” 11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I, that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt?” 12 And He said, “Certainly I will be with you, and this shall be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: when you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall worship God at this mountain.” 13 Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you.’ Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” 15 God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘The LORD, (Yahweh)the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.


The angel of the lord is God (yahweh)

Here we have one who is he, the first and the last, the creator of the earth, the caller of Isaiah

Isaiah 48:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 “Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

He was sent by Yahweh God and his Spirit

The angel of Yahweh is identifed as Yahweh

Genesis 22:15–16 (LSB) — 15 Then the angel of Yahweh called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares Yahweh, because you have done this thing and have not spared your son, your only one,

The Angel is called YHWH and God

Genesis 16:7–13 (LSB) — 7 Now the angel of Yahweh found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And he said, “Hagar, Sarai’s servant-woman, where have you come from and where are you going?” And she said, “I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai.” 9 Then the angel of Yahweh said to her, “Return to your mistress and humble yourself under her hands.” 10 Moreover, the angel of Yahweh said to her, “I will greatly multiply your seed so that they will be too many to be counted.” 11 And the angel of Yahweh said to her further, “Behold, you are with child, And you will bear a son; And you shall call his name Ishmael, Because Yahweh has heard your affliction. 12 “And he will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone’s hand will be against him; And he will dwell in the face of all his brothers.” 13 Then she called the name of Yahweh who spoke to her, “You are a God who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?”

 

[amazing grace]

Belief in a triune God is not belief in polytheism or trithism. The three are ONE, so it is still monotheism. It is just understood that the three that make up God are so united in purpose, power, glory, mission, etc. that they are one God.

Yep, Trinity = one God in three co-equal, co-eternal persons; three persons, distinct from each other, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit YET ONE God. That's what you tell yourself so that you remain so-called 'monotheist'.

Monotheism is the belief that there is only ONE God ---- NOT a Triune God. True monotheism tells us more than that there is only one God. It also tells us that there is only one individual who is that God.....NOT 'three-in-one' ---- that is a different kind of monotheism.

Original monotheism has been 'stretched' from the essential truth that there is only one individual who is God, to the peculiar concept that multiple persons are one God. Is such a 'monotheism' really monotheism at all? It is difficult to see any practical differences between worshiping multiple gods and worshiping multiple persons or personalities who are called one God. Is not worship of a poly-personal God actually polytheism in disguise?

 

[TomL]

correct the uni's misrepresent trinitarianism in the same way they do the scriptures by twisting the meaning of words.

Yep This is tritheism

TRITHEISM

Tritheism is the belief that the *Trinity is not one God but three. It can arise if the persons of the Trinity are regarded as *substantial beings in their own right, sharing a common divinity only in the sense that people share a common humanity.

Tritheism has never been the official teaching of any church. It is at best an error which some Christians may have fallen into in their attempts to explain the Trinity. *Jerome accused the Greek church of holding a form of tritheism, on the ground that the Greeks referred to the persons of the Trinity as *hypostaseis, which he took to mean ‘substances’; but he was mistaken in this and had to be corrected. Christians today are sometimes accused of tritheism by Jews, and particularly by Muslims, and also by such *sects as Jehovah’s Witnesses, though the accusation has always been strenuously denied and does not in fact reflect any major strand in Christian theology.

It is not held by the christian church

 

[Doug Brents]

Yep, Trinity = one God in three co-equal, co-eternal persons; three persons, distinct from each other, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit YET ONE God. That's what you tell yourself so that you remain so-called 'monotheist'.

Monotheism is the belief that there is only ONE God ---- NOT a Triune God. True monotheism tells us more than that there is only one God. It also tells us that there is only one individual who is that God.....NOT 'three-in-one' ---- that is a different kind of monotheism.

Original monotheism has been 'stretched' from the essential truth that there is only one individual who is God, to the peculiar concept that multiple persons are one God. Is such a 'monotheism' really monotheism at all? It is difficult to see any practical differences between worshiping multiple gods and worshiping multiple persons or personalities who are called one God. Is not worship of a poly-personal God actually polytheism in disguise?

No, it is not. As you see in every pantheon man has ever created, there is an infighting, division of power, division of purpose, etc. between them. Not so with the one creator God. He is united in purpose, the same glory, the same power, etc. (except when Jesus emptied Himself to become a man). It is clear from Scripture that the Father is God. I am sure that there is no debate there. It is also clear that the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) is God. Some might argue that the Spirit of God is not a separate person, just a separate manifestation of the Father. I am ok with that, although I believe that there are passages that indicate that the Spirit of God is separate and apart from the Father.

Where our disagreement seems to come is in the deity of Jesus. But Scripture is also clear that Jesus is God. Jesus Himself claimed to be God several times. And if He is not God, yet claimed to be God, then He could not have been sinless, and therefore is not qualified to be the sacrifice that takes away sin. If Jesus could not be our sacrifice for sin, then we are all still lost and this whole conversation is moot.

So if Jesus is God (and Scripture says He is), and the Father is God (and Scripture says He is), and the Spirit is God (and Scripture says He is), then the only question that remains is: are the Father, Son, and Spirit one being or three?

Jesus while on Earth as a man speaks to the Father as though the Father is still in Heaven, not in Jesus' body with Jesus. When the Spirit came down to rest on Jesus like a dove when Jesus was baptized, the voice of the Father came from Heaven, not Jesus' body, and not from the dove. This means that there were three separate manifestations of God at one time: Father in Heaven, Spirit in the dove, and Jesus coming out of the water.

Now, I agree with you that there is only one God. But God is made up of three individuals that are so united in power, glory, purpose, etc. that they are ONE, just as a husband and wife are supposed to be united in all respects, exclusive of all others. I believe that this is where the sin of Satan came about. He was envious of the unity of God, and wanted to be part of that unity. This is not specified clearly in Scripture, but it is hinted at, I believe.

 

[Runningman]

Your argument makes no sense. You eliminate the son because of the word only from being God but you cannot eliminate God as the master or the lord even though the son is called the only master and lord


So God is not the master or lord of the church?

Is that your position?




Our Only master and lord is Christ

Jude 4 (NASB 95) — 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Not equal?

Colossians 2:9 (NASB 95) — 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Philippians 2:5–7 (NASB 95) — 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

You seem to have selective blindness. You say that Jesus is the only Lord and Master but reject the Father as the only true God. Why is that?

 

[Runningman]

Lets see

The angel of the lord is stated to be God

Exodus 3:2–6 (NASB 95) — 2 The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. 3 So Moses said, “I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up.” 4 When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 Then He said, “Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” 6 He said also, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
and Yahweh

Exodus 3:7–15 (NASB 95) — 7 The LORD said, “I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt, and have given heed to their cry because of their taskmasters, for I am aware of their sufferings. 8 So I have come down to deliver them from the power of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. 9 Now, behold, the cry of the sons of Israel has come to Me; furthermore, I have seen the oppression with which the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 “Therefore, come now, and I will send you to Pharaoh, so that you may bring My people, the sons of Israel, out of Egypt.” 11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I, that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt?” 12 And He said, “Certainly I will be with you, and this shall be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: when you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall worship God at this mountain.” 13 Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you.’ Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” 15 God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘The LORD, (Yahweh)the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.


The angel of the lord is God (yahweh)

Here we have one who is he, the first and the last, the creator of the earth, the caller of Isaiah

Isaiah 48:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 “Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

He was sent by Yahweh God and his Spirit

The angel of Yahweh is identifed as Yahweh

Genesis 22:15–16 (LSB) — 15 Then the angel of Yahweh called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares Yahweh, because you have done this thing and have not spared your son, your only one,

The Angel is called YHWH and God

Genesis 16:7–13 (LSB) — 7 Now the angel of Yahweh found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And he said, “Hagar, Sarai’s servant-woman, where have you come from and where are you going?” And she said, “I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai.” 9 Then the angel of Yahweh said to her, “Return to your mistress and humble yourself under her hands.” 10 Moreover, the angel of Yahweh said to her, “I will greatly multiply your seed so that they will be too many to be counted.” 11 And the angel of Yahweh said to her further, “Behold, you are with child, And you will bear a son; And you shall call his name Ishmael, Because Yahweh has heard your affliction. 12 “And he will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone’s hand will be against him; And he will dwell in the face of all his brothers.” 13 Then she called the name of Yahweh who spoke to her, “You are a God who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?”

Don't get your wires crossed. The Father is still the only true God, angels aren't God, humans aren't God, etc.

 

[mikesw]

Don't get your wires crossed. The Father is still the only true God, angels aren't God, humans aren't God, etc.

You just deny the wording and context. That is not sufficient interpretation skills or basis for response to Tom

 

[Runningman]

You just deny the wording and context. That is not sufficient interpretation skills or basis for response to Tom

I understand yours and @TomL's confusion, but I shouldn't need to do a writeup explaining how God's messengers, angelic beings, or humans are not themselves God. You all should no better by now. I will, however, show you quickly where the idea of the angel of the LORD speaking in God's name or delivering a message does not carry the assumption that they both God together.

The angel of the LORD and the LORD speak to one another. They aren't God together, they aren't both YHWH.

Zechariah 1
12Then the angel of the LORD said, “How long, O LORD of Hosts, will You withhold mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been angry these seventy years?”
13So the LORD spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who was speaking with me.

 

[mikesw]

I understand yours and @TomL's confusion, but I shouldn't need to do a writeup explaining how God's messengers, angelic beings, or humans are not themselves God. You all should no better by now. I will, however, show you quickly where the idea of the angel of the LORD speaking in God's name or delivering a message does not carry the assumption that they both God together.

The angel of the LORD and the LORD speak to one another. They aren't God together, they aren't both YHWH.

Zechariah 1
12Then the angel of the LORD said, “How long, O LORD of Hosts, will You withhold mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been angry these seventy years?”
13So the LORD spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who was speaking with me.

you always try to counter the obvious account with something not related or less apparent of the angel as the Lord. That is the strawman approach that you are not using effectively. You and peterlag also try to use statistics to deny what a passage says. These are not proper interpretation techniques nor effective debate approaches in scripture.

 

[TomL]

I understand yours and @TomL's confusion, but I shouldn't need to do a writeup explaining how God's messengers, angelic beings, or humans are not themselves God. You all should no better by now. I will, however, show you quickly where the idea of the angel of the LORD speaking in God's name or delivering a message does not carry the assumption that they both God together.

The angel of the LORD and the LORD speak to one another. They aren't God together, they aren't both YHWH.

Zechariah 1
12Then the angel of the LORD said, “How long, O LORD of Hosts, will You withhold mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been angry these seventy years?”
13So the LORD spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who was speaking with me.

Um There is another called Yahweh in the old covenant

Genesis 22:15–16 (NASB 95) — 15 Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, (Yahweh) because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son,

Judges 13:16–22 (NASB 95) — 16 The angel of the LORD said to Manoah, “Though you detain me, I will not eat your food, but if you prepare a burnt offering, then offer it to the LORD.” For Manoah did not know that he was the angel of the LORD. 17 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” 18 But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?” 19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering and offered it on the rock to the LORD, and He performed wonders while Manoah and his wife looked on. 20 For it came about when the flame went up from the altar toward heaven, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 Now the angel of the LORD did not appear to Manoah or his wife again. Then Manoah knew that he was the angel of the LORD. 22 So Manoah said to his wife, “We will surely die, for we have seen God.”

And the angel of the Lord is identified as God

 

[TomL]

Don't get your wires crossed. The Father is still the only true God, angels aren't God, humans aren't God, etc.

You ignored the verses

Lets see

The angel of the lord is stated to be God

Exodus 3:2–6 (NASB 95) — 2 The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed. 3 So Moses said, “I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up.” 4 When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 Then He said, “Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” 6 He said also, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
and Yahweh

Exodus 3:7–15 (NASB 95) — 7 The LORD said, “I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt, and have given heed to their cry because of their taskmasters, for I am aware of their sufferings. 8 So I have come down to deliver them from the power of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. 9 Now, behold, the cry of the sons of Israel has come to Me; furthermore, I have seen the oppression with which the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 “Therefore, come now, and I will send you to Pharaoh, so that you may bring My people, the sons of Israel, out of Egypt.” 11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I, that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt?” 12 And He said, “Certainly I will be with you, and this shall be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: when you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall worship God at this mountain.” 13 Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you.’ Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” 15 God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘The LORD, (Yahweh)the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.


The angel of the lord is God (yahweh)

Here we have one who is he, the first and the last, the creator of the earth, the caller of Isaiah

Isaiah 48:12–16 (NASB 95) — 12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. 13 “Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. 14 “Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. 15 “I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. 16 “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

He was sent by Yahweh God and his Spirit

The angel of Yahweh is identifed as Yahweh

Genesis 22:15–16 (LSB) — 15 Then the angel of Yahweh called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares Yahweh, because you have done this thing and have not spared your son, your only one,

The Angel is called YHWH and God

Genesis 16:7–13 (LSB) — 7 Now the angel of Yahweh found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And he said, “Hagar, Sarai’s servant-woman, where have you come from and where are you going?” And she said, “I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai.” 9 Then the angel of Yahweh said to her, “Return to your mistress and humble yourself under her hands.” 10 Moreover, the angel of Yahweh said to her, “I will greatly multiply your seed so that they will be too many to be counted.” 11 And the angel of Yahweh said to her further, “Behold, you are with child, And you will bear a son; And you shall call his name Ishmael, Because Yahweh has heard your affliction. 12 “And he will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone’s hand will be against him; And he will dwell in the face of all his brothers.” 13 Then she called the name of Yahweh who spoke to her, “You are a God who sees”; for she said, “Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?”

 

[TomL]

You seem to have selective blindness. You say that Jesus is the only Lord and Master but reject the Father as the only true God. Why is that?

You seem confused. It is scripture which states Jesus is the only lord and master

Can you deny God the Father is your lord and master?

 

[amazing grace]

No, it is not.

No it is not-----WHAT is not?

As you see in every pantheon man has ever created, there is an infighting, division of power, division of purpose, etc. between them. Not so with the one creator God. He is united in purpose, the same glory, the same power, etc. (except when Jesus emptied Himself to become a man). It is clear from Scripture that the Father is God. I am sure that there is no debate there. It is also clear that the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) is God. Some might argue that the Spirit of God is not a separate person, just a separate manifestation of the Father. I am ok with that, although I believe that there are passages that indicate that the Spirit of God is separate and apart from the Father.

Pantheon as the collective gods of a religion?
We know that there are many gods but one supreme Almighty God. He is ONE, the numeral ONE. Of course, the Spirit of God is God!!! God is THE Holy Spirit and yet there is also the gift of holy spirit, i.e. the new birth, the divine nature given to believers.
The Holy Spirit is not a separate person from God.

Where our disagreement seems to come is in the deity of Jesus. But Scripture is also clear that Jesus is God. Jesus Himself claimed to be God several times. And if He is not God, yet claimed to be God, then He could not have been sinless, and therefore is not qualified to be the sacrifice that takes away sin. If Jesus could not be our sacrifice for sin, then we are all still lost and this whole conversation is moot.

Actually scripture is NOT CLEAR on the deity of Jesus, that Jesus is God.
Jesus did not claim to be God he denied being God. He claimed to be the Son of God, the Christ, aka the Messiah.
Yes, he could have been sinless - he was sinless and remained sinless, didn't he? What accomplishment is it for God to remain sinless??? What achievement is there in that?
Jesus, a human being, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! The man, Jesus of Nazareth, learned obedience through what he suffered. The man, Jesus of Nazareth, humbling himself in obedience, letting go of his will to do the will of God his Father up to the point of death on a cross. The man, Jesus of Nazareth, who prayed that this cup be removed from him, in anguish pleading with God his Father but nevertheless submitted to his Father's will. Jesus withstood being spit on, guards striking him with blows while his face was covered. He was scourged; soldiers ridiculed him placing a robe of purple on him and placing a crown of thorns upon his head, mockingly kneeling before him saying 'Hail to the king of the Jews!' My Lord and Savior, the man, Jesus of Nazareth, endured great shame for me! It amazes me each time I think about it!

How can you deny what your Lord and Savior did for you? God did not owe himself for the sins of humanity. Humanity owed God - the wages of sin is death. . . .therefore, a man, a human being, had to pour out his blood for many for the forgiveness of sins.

So if Jesus is God (and Scripture says He is), and the Father is God (and Scripture says He is), and the Spirit is God (and Scripture says He is), then the only question that remains is: are the Father, Son, and Spirit one being or three?

"In your Law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.” Is Jesus one person and the Father the second person which = two people? So, is this referencing two Gods or one?

Jesus while on Earth as a man speaks to the Father as though the Father is still in Heaven, not in Jesus' body with Jesus. When the Spirit came down to rest on Jesus like a dove when Jesus was baptized, the voice of the Father came from Heaven, not Jesus' body, and not from the dove. This means that there were three separate manifestations of God at one time: Father in Heaven, Spirit in the dove, and Jesus coming out of the water.

Jesus was born and lived as any other human being. He spoke to God his Father as does any other human being who prays. Yep, Jesus was anointed with holy spirit by God his Father and God audibly spoke to his Son. The visual aspect of the dove representing the anointing was for John's benefit: And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

Now, I agree with you that there is only one God. But God is made up of three individuals that are so united in power, glory, purpose, etc. that they are ONE, just as a husband and wife are supposed to be united in all respects, exclusive of all others. I believe that this is where the sin of Satan came about. He was envious of the unity of God, and wanted to be part of that unity. This is not specified clearly in Scripture, but it is hinted at, I believe.

Satan wanted God's throne ..... Satan grasped at equality with God.....
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. ...... had nothing to do with wanting to be Triune or a Trinity!!!!

One individual is not three individuals within one individual. One individual is ONE individual. I and my husband are one - we were made one by way of an intimate act between a husband and wife . . . we are still TWO individuals, with two minds and two wills. - I can surely attest to that fact!!

 

[synergy]

So, what's your deal with not agreeing the Father is alone the true God if you're kinda agreeing with me after all?

Because nowhere does the Bible say that the Father is alone. It is God who is alone as the only true God. That's Monotheism which Trinitarianism supports.

Since you say that you support John 17:3 and that verse promotes Monotheism, which Trinitarianism supports, then you support Trinitarianism. Thanks for all that support.

Can you explain how you feel the Father's exclusive deity ruling out all others helps the trinity doctrine?

Again, nowhere does the Bible say that the Father alone is the only true God. Keep supporting John 17:3 as it is written and you'll be a Trinitarian sooner than you think.

 

[Doug Brents]

One individual is not three individuals within one individual. One individual is ONE individual. I and my husband are one - we were made one by way of an intimate act between a husband and wife . . . we are still TWO individuals, with two minds and two wills. - I can surely attest to that fact!!

Right there you prove your lack of understanding. Jesus is not the Father, but He and the Father are one (John 10:30). Your marriage to your husband is an example of the unity of God (Matthew 19:5-6, Mark 10:7-9). You are indeed still two individuals with two minds and two wills, just as Jesus has His own mind and His own will apart from the Father's. And as the bride is to submit her will to her husband's will (as he is the head of the family), so Jesus submits His will to that of the Father as He is the head of Christ (1 Cor 11:3).

No it is not-----WHAT is not?

You said, "Is not worship of a poly-personal God actually polytheism in disguise"
my response, "No, it is not."

Pantheon as the collective gods of a religion?
We know that there are many gods but one supreme Almighty God. He is ONE, the numeral ONE. Of course, the Spirit of God is God!!! God is THE Holy Spirit and yet there is also the gift of holy spirit, i.e. the new birth, the divine nature given to believers.
The Holy Spirit is not a separate person from God.

Yes, the Holy Spirit is a separate person from God. We are not given the Father as our Comforter. And we are not given Jesus as our Comforter. Jesus said that He must leave so that the Holy Spirit "HE" can come (John 14:26). The Father sent the Holy Spirit, and Jesus had to depart before the Spirit could come. Three separate "He"s.

Actually scripture is NOT CLEAR on the deity of Jesus, that Jesus is God.
Jesus did not claim to be God he denied being God. He claimed to be the Son of God, the Christ, aka the Messiah.

Wrong again.
Jesus said He was God in John 8:38. "Before Abraham was, I AM." Who spoke to Abraham from the burning bush? God, correct? Then in John 8, Jesus claims to be the One who spoke to Abraham from the bush. Again, if Jesus is not God, then He just told a lie. Telling a lie is sin. If Jesus sinned then He cannot be our savior. You can't have it both ways.

Yes, he could have been sinless - he was sinless and remained sinless, didn't he? What accomplishment is it for God to remain sinless??? What achievement is there in that?

Jesus was not just God. He was also man. He had emptied Himself of the independent use of His power, His glory, His knowledge, etc. and became a human just like you and me. He could sin; He could covet; He could lust; He could hunger; He could feel sadness, and loneliness, and sorrow, and pain, etc. But He lived His whole life with all of our weaknesses without sinning. He could not have been our redeemer if He was not our kinsman.

Jesus, a human being, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! The man, Jesus of Nazareth, learned obedience through what he suffered. The man, Jesus of Nazareth, humbling himself in obedience, letting go of his will to do the will of God his Father up to the point of death on a cross. The man, Jesus of Nazareth, who prayed that this cup be removed from him, in anguish pleading with God his Father but nevertheless submitted to his Father's will. Jesus withstood being spit on, guards striking him with blows while his face was covered. He was scourged; soldiers ridiculed him placing a robe of purple on him and placing a crown of thorns upon his head, mockingly kneeling before him saying 'Hail to the king of the Jews!' My Lord and Savior, the man, Jesus of Nazareth, endured great shame for me! It amazes me each time I think about it!

How can you deny what your Lord and Savior did for you? God did not owe himself for the sins of humanity. Humanity owed God - the wages of sin is death. . . .therefore, a man, a human being, had to pour out his blood for many for the forgiveness of sins.

This section of your post is 100% correct. All of those things are true. You seem to love His humanity, but you spurn His deity. He could not have saved you if He was not God.
Think about it: if Jesus was only human, a finite human, and He lived a single human life, then His single human life would be good as a sacrifice for a single other human soul. Because His power to cover sin would be finite. Yet as an infinite God, His sacrifice would be great enough to cover an infinite amount of sin.

"In your Law it is written that the testimony of two people is true. I am the one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.” Is Jesus one person and the Father the second person which = two people? So, is this referencing two Gods or one?

It is referencing two people who are one God.

Jesus was born and lived as any other human being. He spoke to God his Father as does any other human being who prays. Yep, Jesus was anointed with holy spirit by God his Father and God audibly spoke to his Son. The visual aspect of the dove representing the anointing was for John's benefit: And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

The Holy Spirit falling of Jesus had many purposes. It gave Jesus the anointing to start His ministry. It gave Him the Holy Spirit through whom He did all the miracles He did. It was a witness not only to John, but to all the Apostles (all of whom were with Him by that time), and to you and me today.

Satan wanted God's throne ..... Satan grasped at equality with God.....
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. ...... had nothing to do with wanting to be Triune or a Trinity!!!!

No, if the created being (Satan) could have become one with God, then God would have become quartune, not just triune. But a finite angel cannot become infinite; a created angel cannot become eternal. But yes, Satan did grasp equality with God, but Jesus (who was already equal with God, being part of God) did not consider equality with God something to be held onto, but gave it up, making Himself less even than the angels (a human) and submitted Himself to the cross. And He did that all so that you would have the right and ability to deny His deity (even though doing so will result in your spending eternity in Hell). I pray you repent before it is too late (Luke 10:16, 1 John 2:22).

 

[civic]

You seem to have selective blindness. You say that Jesus is the only Lord and Master but reject the Father as the only true God. Why is that?

Projecting again

 

[Runningman]

you always try to counter the obvious account with something not related or less apparent of the angel as the Lord. That is the strawman approach that you are not using effectively. You and peterlag also try to use statistics to deny what a passage says. These are not proper interpretation techniques nor effective debate approaches in scripture.

Quit your whining and stick with the scripture.

In Zechariah 1:13,14 the angel of the LORD isn't claiming to be YHWH anymore. Rather, YHWH is speaking to the angel of the LORD and vice versa. Know why? Because the angel was never claiming to be YHWH in the first place. Speaking YHWH's message is not equal to being YHWH.

 

[Runningman]

Projecting again

John 17:3 is still there about the Father being the true God alone. It explicitly says that. I thought we were getting somewhere, but I guess I just need to keep hounding on this same point until people start agreeing.

 

[Runningman]

Because nowhere does the Bible say that the Father is alone. It is God who is alone as the only true God. That's Monotheism which Trinitarianism supports.

Since you say that you support John 17:3 and that verse promotes Monotheism, which Trinitarianism supports, then you support Trinitarianism. Thanks for all that support.

Again, nowhere does the Bible say that the Father alone is the only true God. Keep supporting John 17:3 as it is written and you'll be a Trinitarian sooner than you think.

You mean, the word "alone" isn't printed in your Bible. The word is there because in Greek the word monos means alone or only. Either word works. It seems you only believe what is printed on paper by the publisher. You seemed to be a very thorough Bible scholar several weeks ago, willing to dispute definitions and words, dig into the Greek, and have a discussion, but now I think you have met your match. John 17:3 with the word only meaning alone puts you between a rock and a hard place so you're stalling. You're going to be here for a LONG time until you get honest.