Thomas... My Lord and my God

[civic]

Neither verse did so

John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

Rather, they do the opposite, as all things were made by him. And to Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power and wisdom of God.

yes even my grandkids can read it was Jesus in John 1 who created all things like it says in numerous other places in the bible.

 

[civic]

Nope. John 17:3 says "...You, the only true God...". Nowhere does it say "Father alone" or "You alone".

I know you know how to read, so you are definitely in denial.

yes is a stronghold, a bias, eisegesis, a denying of the Son which causes this abnormal reading/understanding of the bible.

No Son =no light.

Know the Son= Light.

 

[TomL]

yes even my grandkids can read it was Jesus in John 1 who created all things like it says in numerous other places in the bible.

Yes being the creator of all things makes him God.

 

[mikesw]

yes even my grandkids can read it was Jesus in John 1 who created all things like it says in numerous other places in the bible.

Yep. It would be hard to read "the words of God were God" into John 1:1. Even the hyperliteralist should recognize that the words of someone are not equal to the one saying the words. If I said the word was with Mike and the word was Mike, that would hardly, in a literalist sense, be indicating that what I spoke actually is physically equivalent to what I am. (Hopefully this shift to a physical, created being helps make the point understood when spoken of Christ's deity being revealed.)

 

[TomL]

Who is the "him" in John 1:3? Look at John 1:2 to see who the Him refers to. In the context, the last mentioned God isn't the Word. Uh oh! Looks like the Word isn't the Creator. Wow, nothing in the Bible says Jesus or the Word is the Creator.

Christ

The whole passage concerns Christ


John 1:1–5 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

He was in the beginning with God, (the father) and all things came into being through him.

The reference is obviously Christ, the Word, the creator who was with God the Father.

,

 

[TomL]

John 1:3 “Everything came to be through it.” The logos is an “it” not a “him.”

Translators have deliberately chosen to use “him” because they wanted to emphasize that the Word was the male person we know as Jesus. This was a theological choice, not a linguistic one.

"Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you” (Proverbs 4:6).

Is the Wisdom in Proverbs 4:6 a distinct divine person?

The "Word" is not literally a person for the same reason that "Wisdom" is not literally a person. Both are to be taken metaphorically.

Jesus is the personification of the Word because He speaks the words of God. To listen to Jesus equals listening to the Word of God.

People often say I'm wrong when I post this because they say I looked it up in an Interlinear or Concordance and it shows the word is a "him" and not an "it." Those reference books show how the Bible translates a word and not what the Greek actually means. The pronoun is an "it" when it refers to an inanimate noun like the "Word" because Greek has grammatical gender and the "Word" in John 1 is a thing so the Greek says it's an "it."

Here's a partial list of how "logos" is translated in the New Testament...

cause, communication, sayings, saying, word, words, account, talk, question, treatise, intent, tidings, speaker, matter, mouth, work, utterance, preaching, speech, concerning, show, do, doctrine, reason, with, and thing.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

Sorry, your translation is an error.

Autos is a third person masculine pronoun and not neuter

appearing twice

John 1:3 (NA27) — 3 πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν. ὃ γέγονεν

Translations use him because the pronoun is masculine.

BTW, logos is also masculine

Also BTW your approach would make God a thing, so it is filled with error.

 

[civic]

Christ

The whole passage concerns Christ


John 1:1–5 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

He was in the beginning with God, (the father) and all things came into being through him.

The reference is obviously Christ, the Word, the creator who was with God the Father.

,

Ditto

 

[Runningman]

That is ignorant. Jesus is not revealed as deity until John 1. It is an insignificant thing that they did not hear about Jesus until the first century AD. We can even avoid the T word and just recognize the deity of Christ on its own standing. That has been demonstrated in John 1 and other places. If you can return to the recognition of the deity of Christ, angels of God will celebrate.

So you seem to finally be recognizing that without trinitarian words and philosophy, the trinity cannot be found in the Bible?

 

[Runningman]

I do not have to make you think whether the Bible is true or false. You just reject the message.

You still refute the testimony of scripture. You pretend you are interpreting it. Instead you are explaining away the meaning such that the text is meaningless in your interpretation. It is this weird Christadelphian claim that they read the scriptures directly but everyone else who ever has lived before the 19th century was totally wrong.

You don't even believe what the Bible says until you filter it through your theology. This is why you always speak so disparagingly of those who believe what it literally says. Just making things up about whatever god you wish to have and saying it's in the Bible isn't how this works. That's cultish.

 

[Runningman]

Nope. John 17:3 says "...You, the only true God...". Nowhere does it say "Father alone" or "You alone".

I know you know how to read, so you are definitely in denial.

So the Father alone is the true God. That excludes other persons. No need to be coy, I am sure you fully understand what is happening in John 17:1-3.

 

[mikesw]

So you seem to finally be recognizing that without trinitarian words and philosophy, the trinity cannot be found in the Bible?

I have shown that we do not have to mention Trinity to defeat the unitarian belief system. We already see the deity of Jesus. That defeats unitarianism

 

[mikesw]

You don't even believe what the Bible says until you filter it through your theology. This is why you always speak so disparagingly of those who believe what it literally says. Just making things up about whatever god you wish to have and saying it's in the Bible isn't how this works. That's cultish.

All that was needed to defeat unitarianism is John 1 -- which shows the deity of Christ. John 1 is hardly an external filter for reading John 1

 

[Runningman]

Christ

The whole passage concerns Christ


John 1:1–5 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

He was in the beginning with God, (the father) and all things came into being through him.

The reference is obviously Christ, the Word, the creator who was with God the Father.

,

No.

According to standard pronoun-antecedent agreement, the "Him" pronoun refers to the antecedent. In the context, the Word is not Creator, but rather the God the word is with.

Him refers to the last mentioned God which isn't the Word. The Word is not The God in John 1:1-3. Check out the Greek for the first few verses. Your argument doesn't jive with what it says.

John 1
2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

 

[Runningman]

I have shown that we do not have to mention Trinity to defeat the unitarian belief system. We already see the deity of Jesus. That defeats unitarianism

Jesus denied being God, Jesus was created, Jesus is never called the creator, Jesus is a man with a God, there are no teachings to worship or pray to Jesus in the Bible, the New Testament explicitly defines the Father as the true God alone, etc. Your trinity doctrine is nonsense and your god isn't real. Sorry, just need to tell you directly.

 

[Runningman]

All that was needed to defeat unitarianism is John 1 -- which shows the deity of Christ. John 1 is hardly an external filter for reading John 1

John 1 says the Word is not the creator, it says Jesus is not the true Light, and it says Jesus was created. It's interesting how the weapon formed against Christianity always backfires on those who would wield it against us.

 

[mikesw]

Jesus denied being God, Jesus was created, Jesus is never called the creator, Jesus is a man with a God, there are no teachings to worship or pray to Jesus in the Bible, the New Testament explicitly defines the Father as the true God alone, etc. Your trinity doctrine is nonsense and your god isn't real. Sorry, just need to tell you directly.

I think you have been reading the Quran for your refutation of Jesus. You have to return to the Christian Bible.

 

[mikesw]

John 1 says the Word is not the creator, it says Jesus is not the true Light, and it says Jesus was created. It's interesting how the weapon formed against Christianity always backfires on those who would wield it against us.

really? How do you come out with your unusual concepts? Even though you are a hyperliteralist, you deny all things were created through Him (the Word):
John 1:3 (ESV)
3All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I'm not ready to deny verses like this in order to follow the unitarian beliefs

If you could find a good argument for your view and convince capable scholars and theologians, you might have a bit of basis to accept your new, novel, gnostic belief. No one on his own should be pushing his private doctrines on people when they are so contrary to sound teaching.

 

[Runningman]

I think you have been reading the Quran for your refutation of Jesus. You have to return to the Christian Bible.

I think you are confusing your religion with Scripture. In the Bible, Jesus isn't God or the Creator. The Bible explcitly says Jesus is created and a man, there are no instructions to worship or pray to Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

really? How do you come out with your unusual concepts? Even though you are a hyperliteralist, you deny all things were created through Him (the Word):
John 1:3 (ESV)
3All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I'm not ready to deny verses like this in order to follow the unitarian beliefs

If you could find a good argument for your view and convince capable scholars and theologians, you might have a bit of basis to accept your new, novel, gnostic belief. No one on his own should be pushing his private doctrines on people when they are so contrary to sound teaching.

According to standard pronoun-antecedent agreement, the "Him" pronoun refers to the antecedent. In the context, the Word is not Creator, but rather the God the word is with.

Him refers to the last mentioned God which isn't the Word. The Word is not The God in John 1:1-3. Check out the Greek for the first few verses. Your argument doesn't jive with what it says.

John 1
2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

 

[Peterlag]

Sorry, your translation is an error.

Autos is a third person masculine pronoun and not neuter

appearing twice

John 1:3 (NA27) — 3 πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν. ὃ γέγονεν

Translations use him because the pronoun is masculine.

BTW, logos is also masculine

Also BTW your approach would make God a thing, so it is filled with error.

It's the same with John 14:17

Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.” Capitalizing the “H” and “S” and using the English pronoun “He” is appropriate when God is being referred to as “the Holy Spirit.” However, when we see the “h” and “s” having the lowercase such as "the holy spirit" and all the pronouns referring to that spirit being impersonal such as “it” and “which” is when the subject under discussion is the gift of God’s nature.