Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Doug Brents]

I replied to all of those and your reply was you feel I committed blasphemy and denied Jesus. Your false accusations mean nothing to me. Are you going to reply to the Scriptural answers I gave you or just be upset about them?

I have already replied to them all. You have given no "Scriptural answers" that refute the truths I have stated.

 

[Runningman]

I have already replied to them all. You have given no "Scriptural answers" that refute the truths I have stated.

You didn't reply. You took the low road with ad hominem. That's ok, though. There is a time to talk and a time to listen. Jesus is not God and saying such things is blasphemy and idolatry. It's pardonable. It's up to you.

 

[Peterlag]

Many of us have already shown you these passages. But at the risk of throwing God's pearls before swine, I will attempt it one last time.
Isa 9:6 - The prophecy of a child being born who would be God.
John 1:1-3, 14 - Jesus is God, is eternal, created everything that was created and became a man who lived on Earth.
John 8:58 - Jesus is eternal, existed before Abraham, and Abraham longed to see the day of Jesus.
John 10:30 - Jesus says He and the Father are ONE. If Jesus were not God, it would have been a sin for Jesus to accept being called "God".
John 20:28 - Thomas calls Jesus "God" and is not rebuked by Jesus. If Jesus were not God, it would have been a sin for Jesus to accept being called "God".
Heb 1:8 - the Father calls Jesus "God".
Col 2:9 - In Jesus the fullness of deity dwells.
Titus 2:13 - Jesus is called "our God and savior".
Rev 1:8 - Jesus is the "Alpha and Omega", a title of God.
2 Pet 1:1 - Jesus is our "God and Savior".

These are not vague, ambiguous, "pieced together", or hidden. They are very clear statements of the deity of Christ Jesus. If you deny these, then you must deny Scripture, and deny salvation through Him. As John says,
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and now it is already in the world." (1 John 4:1-3)

None of your above verses say we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

John 10:30 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up "one God." The phrase was a common one, and even today if someone used it, people would know exactly what they meant... he and his Father are very much alike. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about his ministry there, he said that he had planted the seed and Apollos had watered it. Then he said, "... he who plants and he who waters are one..." (1 Corinthians 3:8 NKJV). In the Greek texts, the wording of Paul is the same as that in John 10:30, yet no one claims that Paul and Apollos make up "one being." Christ uses the concept of "being one" in other places, and from them one can see that "one purpose" is what is meant. John 11:52 says Jesus was to die to make all God's children "one." In John 17:11, 21 and 22, Jesus prayed to God that his followers would be "one" as he and God were "one." I think it's obvious that Jesus was not praying that all his followers would become one being in "substance" just as he and his Father were one being or "substance." I believe the meaning is clear: Jesus was praying that all his followers be one in purpose just as he and God were one in purpose.

 

[Doug Brents]

You didn't reply. You took the low road with ad hominem. That's ok, though. There is a time to talk and a time to listen. Jesus is not God and saying such things is blasphemy and idolatry. It's pardonable. It's up to you.

You deny that Jesus is God in the flesh? Then your faith is in vain, and you have no hope of Heaven (1 John 4:1-6). Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Peterlag]

You deny that Jesus is God in the flesh? Then your faith is in vain, and you have no hope of Heaven (1 John 4:1-6). Thanks for the discussion.

If the spirit is telling you that Jesus is God. That spirit is not from God. The spirit from God will say that Jesus came in the flesh. The false spirit will say God came in the flesh. There's your test of the spirit.

 

[Runningman]

You deny that Jesus is God in the flesh? Then your faith is in vain, and you have no hope of Heaven (1 John 4:1-6). Thanks for the discussion.

Jesus coming in the flesh means that he was real, alive, and in person. Of course I believe that and I hope you do too.

 

[Doug Brents]

None of your above verses say we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

John 10:30 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up "one God." The phrase was a common one, and even today if someone used it, people would know exactly what they meant... he and his Father are very much alike.

That is your opinion, but it does not reflect the consensus of what Scripture shows. There has not been anyone else who has ever lived who could say "the Father and I are one". Yes, my wife and I are one. That doesn't mean that we are one being, and it doesn't mean that we are "very much alike". But it does mean that we are one in purpose, one in power, one in authority, one in spirit (because God has made us one).

When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about his ministry there, he said that he had planted the seed and Apollos had watered it. Then he said, "... he who plants and he who waters are one..." (1 Corinthians 3:8 NKJV). In the Greek texts, the wording of Paul is the same as that in John 10:30, yet no one claims that Paul and Apollos make up "one being."

Correct. In this case it means that they are serving one purpose, and working to accomplish one goal. The Father and Jesus are, I believe, separate beings (like a husband and wife are separate beings), but they are so united in purpose, power, authority, and spirit that they are ONE God.

Christ uses the concept of "being one" in other places, and from them one can see that "one purpose" is what is meant. John 11:52 says Jesus was to die to make all God's children "one." In John 17:11, 21 and 22, Jesus prayed to God that his followers would be "one" as he and God were "one." I think it's obvious that Jesus was not praying that all his followers would become one being in "substance" just as he and his Father were one being or "substance." I believe the meaning is clear: Jesus was praying that all his followers be one in purpose

Very good.

just as he and God were one in purpose.

Should be reworded to say, "just as He (Jesus) and the Father are one in purpose." Together they are one God.

 

[Doug Brents]

If the spirit is telling you that Jesus is God. That spirit is not from God. The spirit from God will say that Jesus came in the flesh. The false spirit will say God came in the flesh. There's your test of the spirit.

What does the Bible say?
John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Jesus is God who left Heaven and came to Earth to live among men. That is God's Word to us, and to deny it is to deny God Himself.

 

[Peterlag]

What does the Bible say?
John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Jesus is God who left Heaven and came to Earth to live among men. That is God's Word to us, and to deny it is to deny God Himself.

John 1:1 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an out ward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was"from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

 

[Peterlag]

That is your opinion, but it does not reflect the consensus of what Scripture shows. There has not been anyone else who has ever lived who could say "the Father and I are one". Yes, my wife and I are one. That doesn't mean that we are one being, and it doesn't mean that we are "very much alike". But it does mean that we are one in purpose, one in power, one in authority, one in spirit (because God has made us one).

Correct. In this case it means that they are serving one purpose, and working to accomplish one goal. The Father and Jesus are, I believe, separate beings (like a husband and wife are separate beings), but they are so united in purpose, power, authority, and spirit that they are ONE God.

Very good.

Should be reworded to say, "just as He (Jesus) and the Father are one in purpose." Together they are one God.

No it's not my opinion. It's a fact. There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. What you put in front of me all day long are bits and pieces of words and half verses along with your own human reasoning, imagination, speculation and assumptions as you pick one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here, and a clue there.

But what you never put in front of me is a verse that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

 

[Doug Brents]

John 1:1 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.

John 1:1 is talking about "the Beginning" when all things were created. That is not six weeks ago or even 2000 years ago, that was at the Creation which does in fact coincide with Genesis 1. And the Logos (the Word) of God was there with God and was God, and through Him (the Logos) all things that were created were made. And without the Logos, nothing was made that was made.

Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah."

John 1:14 makes the Logos of God synonymous with Jesus, because the Logos of God that created everything that was created took on flesh and became a man named Jesus (Yeshua).

The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an out ward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."

If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was"from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

That is your way of explaining away the truth, but it does not change the fact that God (the part of Him that is His reason, purpose, plan, power, wisdom, etc.) took on the form of a man named Jesus. Your explanation does not alter the truth that is in God's Scripture, it only hides the truth from you.

No it's not my opinion. It's a fact. There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. What you put in front of me all day long are bits and pieces of words and half verses along with your own human reasoning, imagination, speculation and assumptions as you pick one verse here, and another verse there, a hint here, and a clue there.

But what you never put in front of me is a verse that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

You must believe ALL of Scripture (if you trust God as 100% honest, trustworthy, and perfect). If you don't trust those things, then you can believe whatever you want to believe. And Scripture says clearly in those passages that Jesus is God.

 

[Peterlag]

John 1:1 is talking about "the Beginning" when all things were created. That is not six weeks ago or even 2000 years ago, that was at the Creation which does in fact coincide with Genesis 1. And the Logos (the Word) of God was there with God and was God, and through Him (the Logos) all things that were created were made. And without the Logos, nothing was made that was made.

John 1:14 makes the Logos of God synonymous with Jesus, because the Logos of God that created everything that was created took on flesh and became a man named Jesus (Yeshua).

That is your way of explaining away the truth, but it does not change the fact that God (the part of Him that is His reason, purpose, plan, power, wisdom, etc.) took on the form of a man named Jesus. Your explanation does not alter the truth that is in God's Scripture, it only hides the truth from you.

You must believe ALL of Scripture (if you trust God as 100% honest, trustworthy, and perfect). If you don't trust those things, then you can believe whatever you want to believe. And Scripture says clearly in those passages that Jesus is God.

John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.

 

[Peterlag]

Hebrews 1:8 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Hebrews is saying your throne oh God is forever. Not Jesus is forever. In Hebrews it's quoted referring to Jesus having the use of that throne.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Psalms 45:6
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

“Your throne is God.” Hebrews 1:8 is an almost exact quotation from the Septuagint version of Psalm 45:6, which itself was a very good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:6, and Hebrews 1:9 is from the Septuagint of Psalm 45:7. The theme of Hebrews 1 centers around the Father’s rule and elevation of the Son over the rest of creation. God spoke through the prophets, and then through His Son, who He appointed heir of all things and who is now seated at God’s right hand as second in command under God.

The God of the Son—anointed him and set him above his companions, such that the Son now sits on God’s right hand. Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalm 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. To see that fully, one must study Psalm 45. Upon examination, Psalm 45 does not support the Trinity, so when it is quoted in Hebrews 1:8 then that quotation does not support the Trinity either. The Jews read Psalm 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God.

 

[Peterlag]

There's no verse anywhere that says Jesus laid aside his deity. Nowhere...

And Jesus never taught the trinity. In fact, nobody ever taught the trinity. If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...

Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.

The Epistles would have writings like...

Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.

And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

 

[Doug Brents]

There's no verse anywhere that says Jesus laid aside his deity. Nowhere...

And Jesus never taught the trinity. In fact, nobody ever taught the trinity. If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...

Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.

The Epistles would have writings like...

Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.

And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

Of what did Jesus empty Himself?

 

[mikesw]

Of what did Jesus empty Himself?

Peterlag might be right that it does not say Jesus laid aside his deity. He could not lose who he is. Jesus kept his divinity but it does appear in John 17 that he no longer had the fully glory he had before his incarnation. I'm just adding a nuance here and not rejecting the goal of your question.

 

[Peterlag]

Of what did Jesus empty Himself?

Does it say Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood?

 

[mikesw]

Does it say Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood?

That is a question written in a fashion characteristic of someone who knows nothing of Trinitarian concepts. Does Peterlag empty himself of his humanness? I do not think he could do that.
Here is one explanation so that all-knowing Peterlag can reject it:

What is meant is that the heavenly Christ did not selfishly exploit His divine form and mode of being, but by His own decision emptied Himself of it or laid it by, taking the form of a servant by becoming man.
Albrecht Oepke, “Κενός, Κενόω, Κενόδοξος, Κενοδοξία,” in TDNT, 661.

Unitarians are not able to comprehend God or God's ability to interact in the world according to His wisdom. That is why it is hard to expect that a person with such beliefs could be a Christian. I do tend to think that a person can have errant doctrine that distracts them even though some people with such errant doctrine could sometimes be a Christian.