Thomas... My Lord and my God

[TomL]

This backs what I have noted throughout this discussion. There are so many ways that Jesus is shown as the incarnation of God (as one of the Trinity) that a Unitarian would need to write a book covering all these passages to counter the idea of a Triune God. The unitarians sound like hyper-literalists that cannot discern these nuances nor even the more blatant passages like John 1. The idea I mean with hyper-literalist is that they find a verse like John 17:3 and use the idea of God as the only true God and use that to reject every passage that speaks of Christ as God as if this is not possible. Of course they try to say that Christ Jesus would be a separate god. However, no one holds to that idea. Anyhow, the hyper-literalist then demands something more direct than John 1 to point to Jesus' pre-existence as God. They demand that scripture must have literal phrases "Jesus is part of the Trinity." But that is a philosophical preference rather than God's design.

In other words, they ignore much scripture

 

[TomL]

His middle name is 'away" as in Running Away Man.

 

[TomL]

The funny thing is they say they believe Jesus and His teachings and flat out deny them.

Jesus said no one has seen the Father or heard His voice in the O.T. Jesus said He is the only one who has seen the Father.

So that only leaves the Son ( YHWH ) who was seen and heard by many in the O.T.

And in the old testament


We have the messenger of Yahweh who is called Yahweh and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

The word of God who speaks as Yahweh

And Jesus is identified as such

As we see Jesus in the Exodus with the children of Israel

1 Corinthians 10:4 (NASB95) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:9 (NASB95) — 9 Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.

Jude 4–5 (NASB95) — 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

 

[Runningman]

It sounds like all you did was hear about John in Sunday school and never learned what he did. Any hope of decent interpretation by you has vanished, even on the basics.


You do not make any sense here.

I am going to ping @TomL on this one too since he thinks John was preparing the way for Jesus.

So after John had already came preaching, John 1:9 uses the present tense to say the true Light was coming into the world. Means to say, this would place John and Jesus both at around the age of 30 years old by the time God was coming into the world (again) so there is no room for an incarnation to speak of in John 1 and Jesus is a man who came into world like everyone else.

John 1 (NIV)
9The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

 

[civic]

And in the old testament


We have the messenger of Yahweh who is called Yahweh and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

The word of God who speaks as Yahweh

And Jesus is identified as such

As we see Jesus in the Exodus with the children of Israel

1 Corinthians 10:4 (NASB95) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:9 (NASB95) — 9 Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.

Jude 4–5 (NASB95) — 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

ditto

 

[synergy]

I am going to ping @TomL on this one too since he thinks John was preparing the way for Jesus.

So after John had already came preaching, John 1:9 uses the present tense to say the true Light was coming into the world. Means to say, this would place John and Jesus both at around the age of 30 years old by the time God was coming into the world (again) so there is no room for an incarnation to speak of in John 1 and Jesus is a man who came into world like everyone else.

John 1 (NIV)
9The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

The NKJV is a better translation of John 1:9 than the NIV. The NIV takes the word ῏Ην and throws it out the window.

This is the Koine Greek Version:
John 1:9 ῏Ην τὸ φῶς τὸ ἀληθινόν, ὃ φωτίζει πάντα ἄνθρωπον, ἐρχόμενον εἰς τὸν κόσμον.

This is the NKJV version with the the word ῏Ην properly recognized:
John 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.

This is the NIV version with the the word ῏Ην thrown out the window:
John 1:9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

I'll take my chances with the word ῏Ην not being thrown out the window. It's back to the drawing board for you.

 

[civic]

The NKJV is a better translation of John 1:9 than the NIV. The NIV takes the word ῏Ην and throws it out the window.

This is the Koine Greek Version:
John 1:9 ῏Ην τὸ φῶς τὸ ἀληθινόν, ὃ φωτίζει πάντα ἄνθρωπον, ἐρχόμενον εἰς τὸν κόσμον.

This is the NKJV version with the the word ῏Ην properly recognized:
John 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.

This is the NIV version with the the word ῏Ην thrown out the window:
John 1:9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

I'll take my chances with the word ῏Ην not being thrown out the window. It's back to the drawing board for you.

yes the drawing board is working way to many overtime hours these days.

I'll bet its worn out and needs to be replaced.

 

[mikesw]

Jesus is the light. Jesus does not say the Father is the light or that the light would eventually get here.

So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.”
John 12:35–36.

John 9:5 (ESV)
5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

The deception of unitarianism does not hold up well. I could have expected a little confusion about Jesus as God, but this deception seems to be beyond human. I would guess that those who denied Christ Jesus in the Godhead in the early centuries would have been only superficially confused, not immeshed so deeply into confused interpretation of scripture.

 

[Peterlag]

No, I use God's words according to my call.

10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant. Jer. 1:10.

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:13.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Heb 1:7–8.

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Col. 2:9.

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matt. 1:23.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev. 1:8.

Verses Showing Jesus Performing Actions Attributed to God:

• Forgiveness of sins (Mark 2:5-10):
  • Only God can forgive sins. Jesus's ability to do so is seen as a claim to divinity.
• Claiming to be one with the father (John 10:30):
  • "I and the Father are one."
• Creating all things (Colossians 1:16):
  • "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him."
    
    You have more than enough proof here.

John 8:58
At the last super, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny the Christ. They said literally, "Not I am, Lord" Matthew 26:22, 25. No one would say the disciples were trying to deny they were God because they were using the phrase "Not I am." "I am" was a common way of designating oneself and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. The argument is made that because Jesus was "before" Abraham, Jesus must be God. Jesus figuratively existed in Abraham's time. He did not actually physically exist as a person, but rather he existed in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man. In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus' "I am" statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God's "I am" statement in Exodus 3:14. The two statements are very different. The Greek phrase in John does mean "I am." The Hebrew phrase in Exodus means "to be" or "to become." God was saying "I will be what I will be."

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is the light. Jesus does not say the Father is the light or that the light would eventually get here.



The deception of unitarianism does not hold up well. I could have expected a little confusion about Jesus as God, but this deception seems to be beyond human. I would guess that those who denied Christ Jesus in the Godhead in the early centuries would have been only superficially confused, not immeshed so deeply into confused interpretation of scripture.

The disciples are the light of the world too, but the true Light is the Father.

Matt 5 KJV
14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

 

[Runningman]

The NKJV is a better translation of John 1:9 than the NIV. The NIV takes the word ῏Ην and throws it out the window.

This is the Koine Greek Version:
John 1:9 ῏Ην τὸ φῶς τὸ ἀληθινόν, ὃ φωτίζει πάντα ἄνθρωπον, ἐρχόμενον εἰς τὸν κόσμον.

This is the NKJV version with the the word ῏Ην properly recognized:
John 1:9 He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.

This is the NIV version with the the word ῏Ην thrown out the window:
John 1:9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

I'll take my chances with the word ῏Ην not being thrown out the window. It's back to the drawing board for you.

The NKJV calls the Light an "it" in verse 5.

It's because there are two usages of Light being used in the preceding verses and the NKJV misses the mark.

John 1 NKJV
5And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Which version of the NKJV are you using? I don't see one that says "He" and the Greek doesn't translate to such.

 

[mikesw]

The disciples are the light of the world too, but the true Light is the Father.

Matt 5 KJV
14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

So if I understand you right John 1:9-10, you are saying that all the disciples are the "he" in John1 :10. And they all created the world in which they now exist. That does not sound logical at all. And do you not know that this was simply a crowd who gathered. They were not identified as disciples yet. This event was sort of an introduction of himself to the people.
So you also mess up since John the Baptist came to tell the Israel people that their Messiah was there. This is what John 1:5-10 are showing.

 

[synergy]

The NKJV calls the Light an "it" in verse 5.

It's because there are two usages of Light being used in the preceding verses and the NKJV misses the mark.

John 1 NKJV
5And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Which version of the NKJV are you using? I don't see one that says "He" and the Greek doesn't translate to such.

Why the hurry to leave John 1:9 so fast? Here is John 1:9 again in Koine Greek with its transliteral conversion into English. Pay special attention to the Greek word ὃ.

(John 1:9) ῏Ην τὸ φῶς τὸ ἀληθινόν, ὃ φωτίζει πάντα ἄνθρωπον, ἐρχόμενον εἰς τὸν κόσμον.
Was the Light the Real, who shines all mankind, coming into the world.

ὃ is a personal independent nominative pronoun in Greek, never used for a thing or an it. An independent nominative pronoun for a thing is τό.

Therefore, the subject that the pronoun ὃ refers to ("τὸ φῶς τὸ ἀληθινόν", the Light the Real) is therefore a person, not a thing, by Greek standards. The Unitarianism attempt to infect and warp Greek will never succeed.

I can do an analysis of John 1:5 also, time permitting. Anyways, John 1:9 is proof enough.

BTW, the KJV version I used was MKJV which E-Sword supplies with its downloads.